mariolatry

[Mannyfit75]

Many don’t even KNOW there is such a thing as a Catechism. Trust a guy from the Philippines.

It’s the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I’m sure they have a Filipino version of it.

I also know that English is the second language in the Philippines, so I don’t think reading it would become an issue.

There are tons of resources online from

vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

 

[Ignatius]

Many Catholics turned Protestant have told me Catholics worship Mary. This leads me to believe that they were guilty of mariolatry.

I have seen protestants make ‘alter calls’ and go up and bow down before the pastor and pray. This leads me to believe that they are guilty of pastorolatry.

 

[PinoyCatholic]

It’s the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I’m sure they have a Filipino version of it.

I also know that English is the second language in the Philippines, so I don’t think reading it would become an issue.

There are tons of resources online from

vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

You’re confusing it’s being available with people’s having interest in reading it.

Many Filipinos only have a passing knowledge of the Catholic Faith. Many are just content to live out their lives knowing how to pray the Rosary and hearing Mass every Sunday. That’s why Filipinos are easy pickings for any johnny-come-lately preacher to spout a differing opinion with lots of flash and little substance. Check out Iglesia ni Kristo and Ang Dating Daan.

I don’t know how it is with the rest of the world, but if we’re to use the Philippine Catholic community as a representative of Catholics in general, it’s a sad state of affairs in terms of being catechized indeed.

 

[inchrist101]

Have to break the response in 2.

I think the disconnect arises from the idea that by your definition, mother only means “source”. I completely agree with you for the fact that Mary was never the source of Jesus’ divine nature. The source of that would be God Himself. I would put forward though that mother in Mary’s case does not only mean “source” of His human nature, it also means the woman who “nurtured” both natures of Christ, human and divine. I’m sure you’d agree that Christ all throughout His infancy and up to adulthood was nurtured by Mary. This would certainly qualify her as His mother, correct? Not unless of course you find the idea of the infinite being nurtured by a finite being somehow objectionable.

I don’t believe Mary nutured his divine nature. How could she when she probably didn’t understand it herself. I believe the Holy Spirit nutured his divine nature. Let’s look at when Jesus visited the temple at age 12. Look how impressed they were with his questions and knowledge. What was Mary’s response to him. She basically said you worried us to death because we didn’t know where you were. Not exactly but you know what I mean. Look at Jesus’ response.

Luke 2:49 “But why did you need to search?” he asked. “Didn’t you know that I must be in my Father’s house?”[d] 50 But they didn’t understand what he meant.

Obviously Mary and Joseph didn’t get it. Mary didn’t nurture Jesus divine nature. He was GOD. You mean to tell me GOD needs nuturing for his divine nature. Crude I know but you get my point.

You “don’t believe in honoring someone else’s mother and father”? You must be a very rude person to other people’s parents no? Just kidding. What I’m getting at though is in your saying that Mary is only Jesus’ mother and not yours, you’ve disavowed a familial relationship with Jesus Himself. That’s your choice to make of course, and I can’t fault you for that.

Yeah that didn’t sound too good I know (LOL). I’m really not rude. I don’t see how I disavowed a familial relationship with Jesus by not honoring his mother. My salvation depends solely on my relationship with Jesus. Jesus tell us this himself. He never says honor my mother as well. I have great respect for Mary no doubt. She obeyed GOD and did his will. But I share equally the same respect for others as well. Peter, Paul, christians today who are persecuted for their faith. I don’t raise Mary above them simply because she was Jesus mother. And as I stated before I don’t believe we have the familial relationship in Heaven like we do here on earth. My mother is not my mother in Heaven. Mary is not Jesus mother in Heaven.

As for His wounds solely being proof of His resurrection, that sounds kind of flimsy to me. Even the apostles didn’t believe in Him when He showed them his wounds (Luke 24:38) and only when He broke bread with them was when they truly believed that He was who He said He was. Thomas might have needed some convincing but was that the sole reason for the wounds still having been there upon resurrection? I’m more inclined to believe that His wounds were present upon His glorified body because they were what needed to be there for His sacrifice to be truly accomplished. I also firmly believe that when Christ came into this world His divine nature was fully integrated into His human nature, but that’s another topic for discussion.

His sacrifice was accomplished upon his death. Not by being able to show his wounds after his resurrection. GOD certainly didn’t need to see his wounds did he?? I didn’t say solely did I? Anyway I don’t mean solely but I believe it was done on purpose. His wounds were a demonstration to everyone that witnessed his resurrection that he was in fact the risen Christ. Think of this from a human perspective. We usually need visuals to believe something. Jesus knows this so he showed them his wounds. Just like the empty tomb was visual proof that he was resurrected. But you didn’t answer my question. Does Jesus still show his wounds now. I say no.

As for there being no scriptural foundation for honoring Mary, there are two things you’ll have to consider. First would be: is everything that should be believed in explicitly and exclusively written down in scripture?

Good question. When you say should be believed I say yes and certainly yes to things that are valid for our salvation. Everything else probably not. This would include things you might believe because of legend or some other writing that may or may not be valid.

 

[inchrist101]

Second would be: since the Gospels were focused on Christ, should there be something written about Mary’s assumption in it, and if there isn’t does it de facto invalidate that possibility? I can show you a few things that are not written in scripture that you still definitely believe in.

It doesn’t invalidate it but it shouldn’t be required beliefs. I believe that such a major event like the assumption would be in scripture. If it’s not in scripture then please show me where it is written. I can save you the time. It’s not written anywhere. It’s an assumption somebody made. As far as believing something that’s not in the Bible give me a good example. You’ll probably say the Trinity. Maybe. Let me say this. I believe in matters of salvation and what we should believe, we need to be silent where the Bible is silent and only speak where the Bible speaks. If someone says Mary performed a miracle then I would say, “show me in the Bible where that is written”. If it’s not written in the Bible but maybe somewhere else does that mean it did not happen. No I’m saying that. I’m open to the possibility. But to then turn around and start building a teaching on something required for belief. Then I say where in the Bible is that.

Of course we pray to Jesus. Does that mean we cannot pray to anyone else then? What do you mean when you say “pray” exactly? We might have different definitions of the word.

I pray to GOD only in Jesus name because that’s how he taught us to pray. Jesus didn’t pray to Moses or Abraham to ask for intercession. I don’t believe that we can pray to anyone else. That implies that they can hear us and there’s no scriptural support for that. How do we know that Mary can hear millions of prayers to her from people asking her to intercede. I pray for other people but I pray to GOD for them and I hope they do the same. Asking Mary to intercede is like sayig GOD won’t listen to me so I’ll ask Mary to ask GOD. Kind of like asking mommy then asking daddy because you don’t like the response. I just don’t think GOD works that way. Jesus says to pray in his name and if it’s line with GOD’s will he will grant it. Why do we need intercession from Mary. If she can and is praying for me, then wonderful. Instead of taking time to pray to smoeone that may not hear me, I’d rather pray to GOD who I know can and does hear me every minute of every single day.

 

[davidv]

Have to break the response in 2.

I don’t believe Mary nutured his divine nature. How could she when she probably didn’t understand it herself. I believe the Holy Spirit nutured his divine nature. Let’s look at when Jesus visited the temple at age 12. Look how impressed they were with his questions and knowledge. What was Mary’s response to him. She basically said you worried us to death because we didn’t know where you were. Not exactly but you know what I mean. Look at Jesus’ response.

Luke 2:49 “But why did you need to search?” he asked. “Didn’t you know that I must be in my Father’s house?”[d] 50 But they didn’t understand what he meant.

Obviously Mary and Joseph didn’t get it. Mary didn’t nurture Jesus divine nature. He was GOD. You mean to tell me GOD needs nuturing for his divine nature. Crude I know but you get my point.

Using the common definition of nurture (see first definition at dictionary.com), “natures” are not nutured. Persons are nurtured. Mary nurtured the person of Jesus, who has two natures.

How could she not understand, at least a much as humanly possible? She was told what was expected of her and she agreed to do her part.

 

[davidv]

Yeah that didn’t sound too good I know (LOL). I’m really not rude. I don’t see how I disavowed a familial relationship with Jesus by not honoring his mother. My salvation depends solely on my relationship with Jesus.

That is not quite true. The commandments didn’t top at “Love God…” it continues with “…and your neighbors as yourself.” So its not just Jesus and you.

 

[PinoyCatholic]

Actually I was going to start off with “How could you possibly believe there were such things as pyramids in Egypt? Moses was in Egypt a lot and it was never mentioned in the Bible.” That whole Trinity thing has gotten so trite.

Absence of explicit mention in the Bible should not necessarily mean that it is not a required belief. In actuality the Bible itself says that there were many things that Jesus said and did but were not written (John 21:25). Does that make those things not written unimportant or unworthy of belief? I’m sure that you’ll agree that everything that Jesus said, did and taught are worthy of belief, correct? How do we find out what those teachings are? Are they lost forever?

The truth is they aren’t. They still exist in the form of Tradition (2 Thess 2:15). How can we tell which Tradition is good and true? We’ll have to ask the people who Jesus left the Tradition to: His Disciples (Mark 4:33), and by extension their successors (2 Tim 2:2) because these people were considered worthy of passing the Truth on to and therefore the Traditions were passed down unto them.

Mary’s Assumption is part of the Tradition of the Church. How do I know it’s good and true? It was taught by the people Jesus gave authority to pass His teachings on (Luke 10:16).

 

[inchrist101]

That is not quite true. The commandments didn’t top at “Love God…” it continues with “…and your neighbors as yourself.” So its not just Jesus and you.

Never said I didn’t love Mary and never said it’s Jesus and me only. My salvation depends on my relationship with Jesus. Do I accept him as savior or not. And yes I do. Accepting him as my savior means I make every attempt to obey the 10 commandments and do everything Jesus teaches us. But Jesus never taught us to pray to Mary. You’re coming in late to the conversation.

 

[LilyM]

It doesn’t invalidate it but it shouldn’t be required beliefs. I believe that such a major event like the assumption would be in scripture. If it’s not in scripture then please show me where it is written. I can save you the time. It’s not written anywhere. It’s an assumption somebody made. As far as believing something that’s not in the Bible give me a good example. You’ll probably say the Trinity. Maybe. Let me say this. I believe in matters of salvation and what we should believe, we need to be silent where the Bible is silent and only speak where the Bible speaks. If someone says Mary performed a miracle then I would say, “show me in the Bible where that is written”. If it’s not written in the Bible but maybe somewhere else does that mean it did not happen. No I’m saying that. I’m open to the possibility. But to then turn around and start building a teaching on something required for belief. Then I say where in the Bible is that.

I pray to GOD only in Jesus name because that’s how he taught us to pray. Jesus didn’t pray to Moses or Abraham to ask for intercession. I don’t believe that we can pray to anyone else. That implies that they can hear us and there’s no scriptural support for that. How do we know that Mary can hear millions of prayers to her from people asking her to intercede. I pray for other people but I pray to GOD for them and I hope they do the same. Asking Mary to intercede is like sayig GOD won’t listen to me so I’ll ask Mary to ask GOD. Kind of like asking mommy then asking daddy because you don’t like the response. I just don’t think GOD works that way. Jesus says to pray in his name and if it’s line with GOD’s will he will grant it. Why do we need intercession from Mary. If she can and is praying for me, then wonderful. Instead of taking time to pray to smoeone that may not hear me, I’d rather pray to GOD who I know can and does hear me every minute of every single day.

St Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in his Epistles, sure as heck taught us to ask for others to pray and intercede for us. It’s totally scriptural and hence God’s own teaching, for us to do so.

His letters are full of comments about how he’s praying for others, requests for prayers from them for himself, reminders to all to pray for each other.

You think he didn’t trust God enough when He asked the Corinthians, the Thessalonians or whoever to pray for him??? What a bizarre notion.

I thought it was our DUTY, taught by Christ Himself, to pray for each other. That’s why He taught us the OUR Father and not the MY Father - we pray as a community for all needs that come to our attention.

How the heck do we do that properly and effectively if people don’t a) tell us what their needs are and b) ask us to pray for those needs? It’s contrary to logic and common sense.

Put it this way - I bet you ask family, friends, your pastor or whoever to pray for you. Apparently you are the one who doesn’t believe Jesus’ words ‘he who believes in me will never die’. Mary absolutely believed in Him - QED she is every bit as alive and able and willing to pray for us as anyone on Earth at the moment.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You’re confusing it’s being available with people’s having interest in reading it.

Catholics need to learn their faith and know it from the heart. Poor catechesis can cause many of the faithful to leave our faith.

Many Filipinos only have a passing knowledge of the Catholic Faith. Many are just content to live out their lives knowing how to pray the Rosary and hearing Mass every Sunday. That’s why Filipinos are easy pickings for any johnny-come-lately preacher to spout a differing opinion with lots of flash and little substance. Check out Iglesia ni Kristo and Ang Dating Daan.

They should learn more of it. It is OUR faith, not just Filipinos. We are Catholics. We are in full communion with the Pope. The late John Paul II said that the Catechism of the Catholic Church as a "A sure norm of teaching the faith."

The better we know our faith, the better we can defend ourselves from Protestants and people like the Iglesia ni Kristo and the Ang Dating Daan. None of those groups have their foundations upon the Apostles.

I don’t know how it is with the rest of the world, but if we’re to use the Philippine Catholic community as a representative of Catholics in general, it’s a sad state of affairs in terms of being catechized indeed.

Let me quote our first Pope

A Letter of St. Peter:

“But in your heart reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence.” 1 Peter 3:15

The problem with poor catechesis is not limited to the US. It is a world wide problem. It is present in Latin America, that is why you have militant Protestant evangelicals converting Catholics who know little of their faith and start to question their Catholic faith because they don’t know how to answer about the so called claim that we worship Mary, that Jesus isn’t real present in the Blessed Sacrament, or that the Pope is not really infallible when he speaks in his teaching office, or that priest cannot forgive sins. How do you answer to those objections? Are you properly form in your faith?

You can pray the rosary all you want, but you need to look much deeper than your own prayer. I would also examine the history of the rosary. That the rosary itself is a mediative prayer and focuses on the life, death, and resurrection of Our Lord. The rosary points us to Jesus.

I can honestly tell you those who already left the Catholic Church left because they didn’t understand our beautiful Catholic faith, have little knowledge about our faith, and have a distorted view of our faith.

Ex-Catholics will tell you, “I was Catholic, but I read the Bible and now I am a BORN-AGAIN” Christian. It’s odd, Catholics are Christians. In fact they are the first.

 

[PinoyCatholic]

Catholics need to learn their faith and know it from the heart. Poor catechesis can cause many of the faithful to leave our faith.

They should learn more of it. It is OUR faith, not just Filipinos. We are Catholics. We are in full communion with the Pope. The late John Paul II said that the Catechism of the Catholic Church as a "A sure norm of teaching the faith."

The better we know our faith, the better we can defend ourselves from Protestants and people like the Iglesia ni Kristo and the Ang Dating Daan. None of those groups have their foundations upon the Apostles.

Let me quote our first Pope

A Letter of St. Peter:

“But in your heart reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence.” 1 Peter 3:15

The problem with poor catechesis is not limited to the US. It is a world wide problem. It is present in Latin America, that is why you have militant Protestant evangelicals converting Catholics who know little of their faith and start to question their Catholic faith because they don’t know how to answer about the so called claim that we worship Mary, that Jesus isn’t real present in the Blessed Sacrament, or that the Pope is not really infallible when he speaks in his teaching office, or that priest cannot forgive sins. How do you answer to those objections? Are you properly form in your faith?

You can pray the rosary all you want, but you need to look much deeper than your own prayer. I would also examine the history of the rosary. That the rosary itself is a mediative prayer and focuses on the life, death, and resurrection of Our Lord. The rosary points us to Jesus.

I can honestly tell you those who already left the Catholic Church left because they didn’t understand our beautiful Catholic faith, have little knowledge about our faith, and have a distorted view of our faith.

Ex-Catholics will tell you, “I was Catholic, but I read the Bible and now I am a BORN-AGAIN” Christian. It’s odd, Catholics are Christians. In fact they are the first.

You’re preaching to the choir Manny. I know full well how beautiful our Catholic Faith is. I’m just lamenting how sad things have gotten in terms of what people know about it.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Never said I didn’t love Mary and never said it’s Jesus and me only. My salvation depends on my relationship with Jesus. Do I accept him as savior or not. And yes I do. Accepting him as my savior means I make every attempt to obey the 10 commandments and do everything Jesus teaches us. But Jesus never taught us to pray to Mary. You’re coming in late to the conversation.

Jesus did said to John, “Behold your mother.” She is our spiritual mother. You are also wrong by claiming, “Jesus never taught us to pray to Mary.” Jesus said that we should pray for one another. That includes asking our brothers and sisters who gone before us to pray for us. They are more alive than we are because they see God face to face. They see God as he is.

God is the God of the living. You have to understand that Catholics do not worship Mary. You need to make that very clear in your head.

What Catholics and even Orthodox is ask Mary and the saints to pray with us. We pray together to God, Our Father as one unit. It is called Communion of Saints.

She is not put above God. The Hail Mary has its bases from the Bible.

Hail Mary comes from Luke 1:28 when Gabriel greeted Mary, “Hail, full of grace.” The next line, “Blessed are you amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” comes from Elizabeth’s greeting.

Holy Mary, Mother of God comes from, “How is it that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Lord in the Hebrew context always equal God when he is addressed. Hail Mary is a very Biblical prayer.

It is not idolatry as you presumed it to be.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You’re preaching to the choir Manny. I know full well how beautiful our Catholic Faith is. I’m just lamenting how sad things have gotten in terms of what people know about it.

Then tell Catholics, what I have told you. The Holy Spirit is in them. They just have to act upon it. Jesus even said, “How I long that I wish to cast fire upon the world.”

Your faith should be on fire. You should preach. You should live your faith. The more Catholics practice their faith, the more people will see how truly Christian we are. Second, I would also ask that you pray for those who have fallen away. Rather than lament, always intercede on their behalf.

 

[inchrist101]

St Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in his Epistles, sure as heck taught us to ask for others to pray and intercede for us. It’s totally scriptural and hence God’s own teaching, for us to do so.

His letters are full of comments about how he’s praying for others, requests for prayers from them for himself, reminders to all to pray for each other.

You think he didn’t trust God enough when He asked the Corinthians, the Thessalonians or whoever to pray for him??? What a bizarre notion.

I thought it was our DUTY, taught by Christ Himself, to pray for each other. That’s why He taught us the OUR Father and not the MY Father - we pray as a community for all needs that come to our attention.

How the heck do we do that properly and effectively if people don’t a) tell us what their needs are and b) ask us to pray for those needs? It’s contrary to logic and common sense.

Put it this way - I bet you ask family, friends, your pastor or whoever to pray for you. Apparently you are the one who doesn’t believe Jesus’ words ‘he who believes in me will never die’. Mary absolutely believed in Him - QED she is every bit as alive and able and willing to pray for us as anyone on Earth at the moment.

Lilym - If you read my post you will see that I do pray for others and I certainly ask for people to pray for me. I never denied that. Praying to dead people to intercede for us is not scriptural and I challenge you to point to where Paul prays to deceased people. Save your time. He doesn’t.

How about this. Please please please pray for me. I certainly will pray for you. I mean that sincerely.

GOD Bless.

 

[davidv]

Lilym - If you read my post you will see that I do pray for others and I certainly ask for people to pray for me. I never denied that. Praying to dead people to intercede for us is not scriptural and I challenge you to point to where Paul prays to deceased people. Save your time. He doesn’t.

How about this. Please please please pray for me. I certainly will pray for you. I mean that sincerely.

GOD Bless.

See bolded phrase. Herein lies the problem. Catholics believe that Mary is alive (spiritually), not dead, and is the presence of God.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Lilym - If you read my post you will see that I do pray for others and I certainly ask for people to pray for me. I never denied that. Praying to dead people to intercede for us is not scriptural and I challenge you to point to where Paul prays to deceased people. Save your time. He doesn’t.

How about this. Please please please pray for me. I certainly will pray for you. I mean that sincerely.

GOD Bless.

Praying for the dead is Biblical.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

 

[inchrist101]

Jesus did said to John, “Behold your mother.” She is our spiritual mother. You are also wrong by claiming, “Jesus never taught us to pray to Mary.” Jesus said that we should pray for one another. That includes asking our brothers and sisters who gone before us to pray for us. They are more alive than we are because they see God face to face. They see God as he is.

God is the God of the living. You have to understand that Catholics do not worship Mary. You need to make that very clear in your head.

What Catholics and even Orthodox is ask Mary and the saints to pray with us. We pray together to God, Our Father as one unit. It is called Communion of Saints.

She is not put above God. The Hail Mary has its bases from the Bible.

Hail Mary comes from Luke 1:28 when Gabriel greeted Mary, “Hail, full of grace.” The next line, “Blessed are you amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” comes from Elizabeth’s greeting.

Holy Mary, Mother of God comes from, “How is it that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Lord in the Hebrew context always equal God when he is addressed. Hail Mary is a very Biblical prayer.

It is not idolatry as you presumed it to be.

I never said it was idoltry. You have me confused with some other poster. So you’re making a broad assumption that because Jesus said to John behold your mother that that implies she is our spiritual mother. How do you know that did you talk to Jesus. I believe he was asking John to take care of her.

If Hail mary was so bibllical then why didn’t Jesus teach us that prayer. He taught us the Our Father. Why not the hail mary. And you don’t need to quote scripture I’m quite familiar with it. Yes Jesus told us to pray for one another. Did he say including those that have gone before you. If you’re asking Mary to pray for you and you’re not praying to her for intercession which to me is the same thing. Then you are assuming she can hear you. How do we know that? We don’t. This conversation has taken a bad turn and really didn’t include you. Don’t join in and start quoting things you learned from Catholic school. I was Catholic for many years and am familiar with the teachings. This thread is closed for me so don’t bother responding.

Peace.

 

[PinoyCatholic]

I never said it was idoltry. You have me confused with some other poster. So you’re making a broad assumption that because Jesus said to John behold your mother that that implies she is our spiritual mother. How do you know that did you talk to Jesus. I believe he was asking John to take care of her.

If Hail mary was so bibllical then why didn’t Jesus teach us that prayer. He taught us the Our Father. Why not the hail mary. And you don’t need to quote scripture I’m quite familiar with it. Yes Jesus told us to pray for one another. Did he say including those that have gone before you. If you’re asking Mary to pray for you and you’re not praying to her for intercession which to me is the same thing. Then you are assuming she can hear you. How do we know that? We don’t. This conversation has taken a bad turn and really didn’t include you. Don’t join in and start quoting things you learned from Catholic school. I was Catholic for many years and am familiar with the teachings. This thread is closed for me so don’t bother responding.

Peace.

I hope you respond to my last post though. It’s post 87 by the way. Sorry for how people here have responded. I was hoping this would have been a good, relaxed conversation.

 

[LilyM]

Praying for the dead is Biblical.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Amen! God is God of the living, which living Christ Himself said includes Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the righteous who came before and after them.

IF the righteous are still alive, as in fact they are, they will never die, then I can ask for their prayers just as I do for yours. And they can hear my requests for their prayers just as I can hear yours. To say otherwise is to deny that they truly DO never die, and it is in effect leaving them buried along with their bones, which is not their fate at all.

God bless. I absolutely will pray for you - from heaven as well, if I’m there after I die. Won’t let a little thing like shuffling off this corruptible flesh stop me from hearing if you need my prayers, you can count on that.

And I trust you won’t forget to pray for me either, when you’re gone :getholy: