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1ke
Guest
Certainly it can go awry-- and the Church responds to that.
Witness the excommunicated nuns in Arkansas. They were excommunicated for exactly this-- heresy concerning the Virgin Mary.
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Witness the excommunicated nuns in Arkansas. They were excommunicated for exactly this-- heresy concerning the Virgin Mary.
J
JohnSeventeen17
Guest
Do NOT Mislead the sheep…How can/does mary intercede when GODs’ word clearly says there is ONE Mediator between God and Men the man CHRIST JESUS… See Matthew Chapter 6 on VAIN REPETION…? How Did Jesus teach us to pray?.. BE VERY CAREFUL OF YOUR GOOD INTENTIONS …especially when they are contrary to GODs’ WORD…
Jesus was outspoken against the “Established Religions of Man”…and the “traditions” they held in high regard.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE… ALWAYS question everything that is contrary to SCRIPTURE…
Blessings to all who are searching fot the truth because GODS WORD IS TRUTH… JOHN 17:17
anything contrary is a lie and from Satin “Who by the way disguises himself as “an angel of Light””… THE GREAT DECEIVER…always makes it sound good and look good like the apple in the garden of Eden… until its too late…
I’m not the best “letter,typer communicator”, but my heart is on pleasing the Lord and Exposing Error when I see it…GODS word is the FINAL AUTHORITY whether we believe it or not.
I
inchrist101
Guest
Coming from 8 years of Catholic school and a strict Catholic upbringing I would agree with you that many Catholics former and current don’t understand the whole Mary thing as it is intended.
Not being a part of the Catholic church for the past 10 years and becoming more intimate with the Bible coupled with attending non-denominational services I can definitely tell you one thing. Many former Catholics I meet including myself read the Bible and simply don’t agree with the teachings. It’s not a misunderstanding at all. At least for the ones I have met. Mary is hardly mentioned in the Bible and we are taught by Jesus that he is the path to God. Jesus never tells us that Mary is the path to himself. We need an intercessor for us to get to God which is Jesus. But we don’t need an intercessor for us to get to Jesus. I believe any scriptural reference made to the Bible with ragard to venerating Mary is a gross misinterpretation. She was Jesus earthly mother but remember Jesus existed way before Mary was ever even thought of. So to say she is the mother of God implies that she existed before Jesus. I’m familiar with the argument that since Jesus was God in the flesh and since Mary was his mother then of course she is the mother of God. That’s extremely thin and I don’t believe God intended us to think that way. If that were the case then certainly more information about Mary would be provided in scripture and certainly by John who she suppsedly lived with until death.
Catholics ascribe the title Blessed Mary when in reality Mary was simply telling us that all nations would call her blessed. I guess we would. She gave birth to our savior. She is very blessed to be chosen for such a monumental task. But this does not rise her above anyone and does not place her in any special category such as co-redeemer. I pray to God directly in Jesus name because that’s how Jesus taught us to pray. He never said to ask Mary for intercession. It’s not needed. That would be like me praying for a million dollars and God saying no, then asking Mary to intercede thinking she can pull rank or have a greater influence (crude example but you get my point).
I have great respect for Mary for doing the will of God. I also respect Joseph equally for doing the will of God along with the apostles, prophets etc. Anyone who does the will of God is Blessed. But we don’t start calling each other Blessed Tom, or Blessed Jane.
Peace and God Bless.
P
PinoyCatholic
Guest
If I’m following your argument, then you’re saying that Jesus’ two natures (human and divine) were completely separate from each other, not one and the same. Am I correct in trying to understand you, inchrist101?
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inchrist101
Guest
Good Fella - show me in the Bible where Jesus ever said that a marriage could be annulled. God doesn’t want us to get divorced as Jesus states but understands that divorce is necessary in cases of adultry. If a man and woman get a marriage annulled with children in the picture what does that mean? The children don’t exist. Maybe your friend had a selfish motive for leaving his wife. But if the marriage was not working and was spiritually detrimental then divorce was probably the right thing. Maybe they shouldn’t have gotten married in the first place. The church simply has no right to deny anyone membership because they are divorced. Jesus would welcome any divorced couple who truly believes in him and wants to worship God. He may not like the fact that they got divorced but he would not turn them away. Remember he told us he was here to help the sick. Not cast them out.Alas, a very dear friend of mine left the Catholic Church and resorted to the same rationalization - and that’s all it is ! He was simply trying to justify his departure and change of Christian persuasion and so appease his troubled conscience. He left the Church because he knew there was no chance his marriage would be annuled and he felt compelled to get a civil divorce. He divorced one woman so that he could marry another. If the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Christ, then according to her teaching, he has committed adultery and has compromised the other two women in his life as well. This truth is too much to bear, so, according to his reasoning, the Catholic Church must be mistaken about our Lord’s prohibition on divorce, since she promotes “Mariolatry” and thus is apostate. One should leave the Church. And by criticizing the Church’s teachings, one is reminded and assured that he has made the right decision by leaving. These ex-Catholics are normally disaffected and hold some kind of grudge against the Church or their families, if it isn’t some other form of emotionalism or escapism. Protestantism had eventually reacted in the same way to appease the collective conscience. The Protestant contentions against the Church’s distinct doctrines are nothing more than an attempt to justify the legitimacy of the Reformation. The fear of God has a lot to do with it. :yup:
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
E
ERose
Guest
I think what Micheal is trying to say in his post Della is that before a rosary is placed in someone’s hand to do he/she must understand what is being accomplished in the rosary. If they do not have the foundation first then the rosary may do more harm than good with some individuals for at first glance from someone with no experience with the rosary and its purpose is that it is Mary centered until you learn the meditation side of it.
Regretfully it is very easy for non-Catholics to turn the rosary prayer around on a non informed Catholic and display it as the worship of Mary.
I
inchrist101
Guest
Let me state it this way. When Jesus was on earth he was both divine and human. But the divine nature he had existed before coming to earth so there would have to be some separation there. After the resurrection Jesus was no longer human and therefore Mary ceased to be his mother. She’s not his mother in Heaven. Just like my mom is not my mom in heaven. They are our earthly parents. When our earthly existence ceases then we are with God and are all equal. Our spiritual body and nature is given to us by God. We are not re-conceived through man and woman. Does that make sense?? Please feel free to offer your (name removed by moderator)ut. I love good conversation that is not confrontational.
God Bless.
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PinoyCatholic
Guest
I love good conversations that are non-confrontational as well. Looks like we’ll get along well.Let me state it this way. When Jesus was on earth he was both divine and human. But the divine nature he had existed before coming to earth so there would have to be some separation there. After the resurrection Jesus was no longer human and therefore Mary ceased to be his mother. She’s not his mother in Heaven. Just like my mom is not my mom in heaven. They are our earthly parents. When our earthly existence ceases then we are with God and are all equal. Our spiritual body and nature is given to us by God. We are not re-conceived through man and woman. Does that make sense?? Please feel free to offer your (name removed by moderator)ut. I love good conversation that is not confrontational.
God Bless.
So in essence what that leads to is that Christ just put on flesh during his stay here on earth, like a suit to be used for a mission. Once the suit is used up it gets thrown away, is that correct? Anything that had anything to do with the suit (flesh) ceases to have a relationship with the person wearing the suit once the mission is done, am I right in saying this? So Jesus’ two natures were never really one then. They were separate and distinct from each other even when he was present on earth.
Seems like a novel concept to me, quite different from what I’ve understood Christ to be, God and Man in one divine being.
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He_Man
Guest
I always thought mariolatry was the worship of Super Mario. Who knew?
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inchrist101
Guest
I may not state it that dogmatically but that’s an interesting way of putting it. I wouldn’t say Jesus put on flesh. He became flesh and blood just like us, so he could exist with us. So yes Jesus was divine and human at the same time. But we have to ask where did Jesus get his divinity? Obviously he did not get it from Mary and I’m sure you would agree with me on this. His divinity then came from God but not at the time he was born to Mary. His divinity came from God in the beginning because Jesus existed with God. This is the disussion is Jesus from God or of God but for our conversation it doesn’t really matter. So when Mary gave birth to him he was already divine but received his human qualities from Mary. Possibly his hair and eye color, the fact that he got tired, he cried, and was hungry etc. etc.I love good conversations that are non-confrontational as well. Looks like we’ll get along well.
So in essence what that leads to is that Christ just put on flesh during his stay here on earth, like a suit to be used for a mission. Once the suit is used up it gets thrown away, is that correct? Anything that had anything to do with the suit (flesh) ceases to have a relationship with the person wearing the suit once the mission is done, am I right in saying this? So Jesus’ two natures were never really one then. They were separate and distinct from each other even when he was present on earth.
Seems like a novel concept to me, quite different from what I’ve understood Christ to be, God and Man in one divine being.
Now after Jesus died and was resurrected, his human qualities ceased to exist because he received his spiritual body. The Bible tells us that we will receive a spiritual body similar to Jesus someday. That tells me then that our connection with our earthly existence is over. My mother is no longer my mother. I believe I will recognize her as being my earthly mother but my relationship as mother/son will not exist. Read this from the Bible: This is Jesus response to the Sadducees about the resurrection concerning marriage.
Mark 12: 24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
This tells me our existence in heaven is very different than here on earth. Mary simply cannot be Jesus mother in Heaven because Jesus existed way before Mary. God did not need Mary to create Jesus in Heaven. He was there before she even existed. So obviously Mary was then used to bring Jesus to his earthly existence. Now that the earthly existence is over for both of them we are left with what their heavenly relationship is. In Heaven we are all beneath God and all worship God. Since Jesus is God that means everyone including Mary is beneath Jesus. We can’t ascribe a special status to her in heaven because she obeyed God here on earth. Getting to heaven is her reward for obeying God as it is for all of us. One other point that I would like to make is I noticed on this board that people have stated Mary is below God but above Angels is therefore worthy of some type of worship. Please show me in the Bible where that is stated because Jesus tells us we are equal to Angels and gives no special status to Mary.
God Bless!!
P
PinoyCatholic
Guest
I completely agree with you that Jesus’ divinity existed even before the beginning of time. No one will here will dispute you on that. Jesus is God true enough. But your premise still puts forward the fact that both Jesus’ natures were separate and distinct from one another despite their having occupied the same body. Jesus/God would still have been very separate and distinct from Jesus/Man. God would still not have truly been one of us then because He was showing contempt for our human natures because He would not allow Himself to be truly one with us.
And if He truly had left behind His human nature upon His death, why would He need to show up in front of the disciples with the wounds He sustained upon His death? Only a human body would sustain wounds, not a spiritual body correct? Rather Jesus must have shown up in a resurrected glorified body, not a merely spiritual one.
And Mary is our mother also due to our adopted status as children of God (Romans 8:14-17), so should we not honor her as the commandment states (Deuteronomy 5:16)?
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PinoyCatholic
Guest
Sorry my reply above was cut off. I pressed submit rather than preview before I could write the last part.
To continue: And Mary is our mother also due to our adopted status as children of God (Romans 8:14-17), so should we not honor her as the commandment states (Deuteronomy 5:16)? This being due to the fact that Jesus is the firstborn Son of God, so would not His mother be our mother too? We do not worship her. Only God is worthy of worship. All we accord to Mary is the honor due to her as our mother.
To continue: And Mary is our mother also due to our adopted status as children of God (Romans 8:14-17), so should we not honor her as the commandment states (Deuteronomy 5:16)? This being due to the fact that Jesus is the firstborn Son of God, so would not His mother be our mother too? We do not worship her. Only God is worthy of worship. All we accord to Mary is the honor due to her as our mother.
I
inchrist101
Guest
I’m replying to both posts to make it easier
I’ve done that too.I’m definitely not trying to separate his human existence from his divine existence. What I’m saying is he was divine before he was man. He then was made into flesh still retaining that divine nature. Mary was his earthly mother. To say she is his mother in heaven implies that she was always his mother and that is impossible. If Jesus existed before Mary then how can Mary all the sudden become his mother in heaven. She can’t. She was his earthly mother. Mary is not the mother of God now nor was she ever. So no we should not accord her the honor as our mother because she is not our mother. I simply don’t see it that way and until God tells me himself I will always retain that belief. It simply has no relevance to our salvation.
Our existence in heaven is much different than here on this earth. The problem is we can’t seem to grasp this so we continue to try and describe heaven using our relationships here on earth. Why would Mary be afforded any more of a special place in heaven than say people who die for their faith everyday. Jesus told us that it was easy for people to believe in his day because they saw what he did. But blessed are those who don’t see and still believe he tells us. Honor thy father and mother is a commandment for this earthly life. I don’t believe in honoring someone else’s mother and father and I certainly don’t think we are supposed to honor Mary. Jesus simply does not tell us to do that.
With regard to why Jesus still had his wounds after the resurrection I think that is pretty obvious. He wanted to make sure everyone knew that it was him. Remember how Thomas doubted his resurrection. He said until I see and touch his wounds I won’t believe. So Jesus granted that to him. But do you really think Jesus is in Heaven now with the visible wounds from his crucifixion? Of course not. I don’t expect that I’ll have the scars that are on my body now when I receive my spiritual body. Just like I won’t have the ailments that plague me now like back pain, sinus and allergy ailments etc. etc.
The bottom line is I find no scriptual foundation for honoring Mary. It simply does not exist. We don’t even know when she died because the Bible has no reference to it. So the assumption and everything else surrounding her came much much later from Pope’s who personally had admiration for her and felt that everyone else should too. If you can show me in the Bible where it states that she was bodily assumed into heaven than I’ll be more open to it. Something like that is a pretty major event. Elijah was taken up in a chariot and God also took Enoch. If he also took Mary then someone would have written about it.
The other point I’d like to make is I read alot about the rosary and prayers to Mary that Catholics say “oh it only points the way to Jesus”. If that’s the case then why not just pray the way Jesus taught us which is to God in His name.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
This is a different topic that itself. Annulments declare that marriage was not valid in the first place. Marriage between siblings. A good example is one one where a brother and sister who were married and discover recently, they are related.
Divorce is not the same as marriage. You need to understand that. You seem to confuse this the two.
Annulments and divorces are not the same.
G
Good_Fella
Guest
That’s just it! Jesus never taught that the Church or any civil judge for that matter has the authority to annul a “valid” marriage. We must understand what the Church considers an annullment to be. An Anullment is a declaration by the proper authority of the Church that a valid marriage never existed in the first place, so it is not tantamount to a divorce. So the Church does not annul marriages, for she has no authority to abolish what is sacramentally valid. Once the Church decides that the marriage is invalid, the marriage can be dismissed as never having existed at all. Just because my old friend stopped loving his wife, that doesn’t mean his marriage was sacramentally invalid. He had no grounds for a Church annullment. :nope: And since he was married in the Catholic Church and divorced in a civil court, his second marriage if consummated is adulterous according to the teachings of Christ, for his first marriage is still sacramentally valid as long as he or his first wife have not been separated by death. :yup:
“It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife must give her a bill of divorce.’ But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” {Mt 5, 31-32}
An unlawful marriage means an invalid marriage, such as an incestuous one.
He said to them in reply, “What did Moses command you?” They replied, “Moses permitted him to write a bill of divorce and dismiss her.” But Jesus told them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts, he wrote you this commandment. But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female. For this reason a man may leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, no human being must separate…Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”
{ cf.Mk 10, 1-12}
Jesus never considered divorce necessary on the grounds of adultery. He acknowledged why Moses was compelled to make concessions for the people because of their sinfulness. Jesus prohibited divorce. The scribes and Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus with the question of divorce and compromise him as one who rejected the commandments of Moses. But Jesus refuted his enemies by redirecting their attention to their own sinfulness and what God has ordained from the beginning. I believe Jesus would prefer that unfaithful couples forgive each other and stay married rather than divorce. Our Lord certainly makes it clear that divorce and remarriage is also a form of sinful adultery. And he declares that no man (bishop or civil judge) has the authority to cancel a valid marriage oradained by God. The Catholic Church adheres to the teachings of Christ on the question of marriage and divorce, and she speaks for Christ.
This is off-topic, so let’s end it here in this thread.
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
H
HollyDolly
Guest
The only Marian prayers my parents said was Hail Mary,full of Grace.None of these extravegent prayers and litanies to Mary for them.While they didn’t go to church very often if at all,they were certainly well grounded in the Catholic faith. Both had gone with men and women of other faiths.I once asked my mom why she didn’t marry Harold,one of her boyfriends. She said it was because Harold was Jewish,and his family would have wanted her to convert.The same for my dad. The Presbyterian lady he went with,well her doctor father offered my dad a lot of money if he would convert from Catholicism,and my dad told him where to put his money,and needless to say they never married.If Calliope’ wasn’t well instructed in her faith,it’s not her sin,but that of those who were supposed to teach her properly.
And it is true,there are many Catholics who seem to certainly be guilty of Mariolatry,seeing all sorts of things like stains on a Chicago underpass,etc as Mary. I think their nuts.If I was the Virgin Mary i would certainly choose a better way to appear than on a tree,underpass,etc.Like the apparition of Our Lady at Zeution in Egypt back in the 1960s or 70s,when she appeared above the church dome to Christians,muslims and others.Saying not a word to the crowds,but always praying and blessing us.
Maybe some catholics leave because of things about Mary,but i believe most leave for other reasons dealing with marriage and divorce,or anger at some member of the clergy like a priest or nun over a personal matter either involving themselves or a loved one, rather than a belief in Mary.
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PinoyCatholic
Guest
I think the disconnect arises from the idea that by your definition, mother only means “source”. I completely agree with you for the fact that Mary was never the source of Jesus’ divine nature. The source of that would be God Himself. I would put forward though that mother in Mary’s case does not only mean “source” of His human nature, it also means the woman who “nurtured” both natures of Christ, human and divine. I’m sure you’d agree that Christ all throughout His infancy and up to adulthood was nurtured by Mary. This would certainly qualify her as His mother, correct? Not unless of course you find the idea of the infinite being nurtured by a finite being somehow objectionable.I’m replying to both posts to make it easier
I’m definitely not trying to separate his human existence from his divine existence…
You “don’t believe in honoring someone else’s mother and father”? You must be a very rude person to other people’s parents no? Just kidding. What I’m getting at though is in your saying that Mary is only Jesus’ mother and not yours, you’ve disavowed a familial relationship with Jesus Himself. That’s your choice to make of course, and I can’t fault you for that.
As for His wounds solely being proof of His resurrection, that sounds kind of flimsy to me. Even the apostles didn’t believe in Him when He showed them his wounds (Luke 24:38) and only when He broke bread with them was when they truly believed that He was who He said He was. Thomas might have needed some convincing but was that the sole reason for the wounds still having been there upon resurrection? I’m more inclined to believe that His wounds were present upon His glorified body because they were what needed to be there for His sacrifice to be truly accomplished. I also firmly believe that when Christ came into this world His divine nature was fully integrated into His human nature, but that’s another topic for discussion.
As for there being no scriptural foundation for honoring Mary, there are two things you’ll have to consider. First would be: is everything that should be believed in explicitly and exclusively written down in scripture? Second would be: since the Gospels were focused on Christ, should there be something written about Mary’s assumption in it, and if there isn’t does it de facto invalidate that possibility? I can show you a few things that are not written in scripture that you still definitely believe in.
Of course we pray to Jesus. Does that mean we cannot pray to anyone else then? What do you mean when you say “pray” exactly? We might have different definitions of the word.
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Ignatius
Guest
Actually, that is were your error is. If I was so misinformed as to believe that, I’d leave the Church too. However, since that is an error, and not what the Church teaches, they left under erroneous and false assumptions.
The Catechism of The Catholic Church specifically states that Worship is to be given to God Alone.
M
Mannyfit75
Guest
They need to open their Catechism.
P
PinoyCatholic
Guest
Many don’t even KNOW there is such a thing as a Catechism. Trust a guy from the Philippines.
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