mariolatry

[davidv]

I never said it was idoltry. You have me confused with some other poster. So you’re making a broad assumption that because Jesus said to John behold your mother that that implies she is our spiritual mother. How do you know that did you talk to Jesus. I believe he was asking John to take care of her.

It not an assumption at all. It is the constant teaching of the bride and body of Christ, the Church. And I believed my teachers who taught me this.

If Hail mary was so bibllical then why didn’t Jesus teach us that prayer. He taught us the Our Father. Why not the hail mary. And you don’t need to quote scripture I’m quite familiar with it. Yes Jesus told us to pray for one another. Did he say including those that have gone before you. If you’re asking Mary to pray for you and you’re not praying to her for intercession which to me is the same thing. Then you are assuming she can hear you. How do we know that? We don’t. This conversation has taken a bad turn and really didn’t include you. Don’t join in and start quoting things you learned from Catholic school. I was Catholic for many years and am familiar with the teachings. This thread is closed for me so don’t bother responding.

Peace.

I believe He did teach it to us. Only He did it through those He left in charge of the Church while He is away for a time.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I never said it was idoltry. You have me confused with some other poster. So you’re making a broad assumption that because Jesus said to John behold your mother that that implies she is our spiritual mother. How do you know that did you talk to Jesus. I believe he was asking John to take care of her.

John’s mother was also there. Mind you. At the foot of the cross was the following individuals. His mother Salome according to the Gospel of Mark as one of the women present before Jesus at the cross.

In Mark 15:40, we read: “And there were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the Mother of James the Less and of Joseph, and Salome.”

So why in would Jesus give Mary, to John while his own mother Salome was there? Well, there is something much deeper in this passage than meets the eye.

In the original Greek translation the verse, “And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.” The word home was not in the original translation.

The translation would be read as as, “And from that hour the disciple took her to his own.”

Later translations had it written as “And from that hour the disciple took her to his own [home].”

If Hail mary was so biblical then why didn’t Jesus teach us that prayer.

Because he came to deliver us from our sins and he came from Our Father.

He taught us the Our Father. Why not the hail mary. And you don’t need to quote scripture I’m quite familiar with it. Yes Jesus told us to pray for one another.

Prayers for the most part are repetitive. In the Divine Office, we recite the Magificat and the Canticle of Zechariah as well pray the psalms. The Hail Mary prayer is no different. It is indeed a Biblical prayer because they come from the Sacred Scripture itself. Another form of prayer that our Eastern Catholics and Orthodox use is “Jesus, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me, a sinner.” which is said on a knotted rope. The rosary itself has its original from Eastern Monastic life. Monks pray 150 beads on a knotted rope while praying 150 Psalms.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Did he say including those that have gone before you. If you’re asking Mary to pray for you and you’re not praying to her for intercession which to me is the same thing.

It is the same. I am asking her to pray for me. It’s called an intecessionary prayer. It is no different than me asking you to pray for me. Moses intercede in behalf of the Israelites for their disobedience to God when God threatened to whip them out and replace them.

Then you are assuming she can hear you. How do we know that? We don’t.

God can allow certain saints or individuals his divine gifts. When we are glorified, all things will be revealed to us. God allowed Daniel to interpret dreams not to mention, he gave the same gift to Joseph. If God can do that to the saints of the OT, he can likewise grant his saints include Mary to see things he can see. God can make all things possible. He is not the God of impossibility.

This conversation has taken a bad turn and really didn’t include you. Don’t join in and start quoting things you learned from Catholic school. I was Catholic for many years and am familiar with the teachings. This thread is closed for me so don’t bother responding.

Peace.

Your life as a former Catholic has no meaning for me. Many Ex-Catholics have come here and try to preach so called truths and the false teachings of the Catholic Church. Your testimony is weak and man-made. You maybe familiar with doctrines of the faith but there is one thing you lack. Your faith in the Catholic is lacking Church because you left. You probably left because you cannot properly form your conscious to agree on certain teachings of the Catholic Church.

Don’t come here telling us what you think we believe because you don’t. You have no idea what we truly believe. I have seen you kind because and frankly, Ex-Catholics turn Protestants are those whom I hate even more for their Anti-Catholic ranting. Don’t be surprise. You’ll see more of me. I am extremely Anti-Protestant and I hate their theology because its man-made.

I’ve been Catholic for 32 yrs. I have not been properly catechized and I have taken time and research to know my faith by listening to Fr. John Corapi, reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Bible, the Writings of the ECF, the Apostolic Fathers, Church History, and Christian History.

You know what I discovered. I found that the first Century Christians held Catholic beliefs. They believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, and their worship was Eucharistic Liturgy. This liturgy is a Paschal Sacrifice of the Lamb, who is Jesus Christ. It makes presence the sacrifice of the cross present before us in an unbloody manner. That is what I discovered. That is why I am Catholic, and by God, I am going to die a Catholic.

 

[pauliztarza]

With over 1 billion Catholics worldwide, there will of course be some who know little about their religion. Some Catholics never even practice their religion. They were simply born and their non-practicing parents had them baptized and that was the end of their religious life. Others may have been raised in a good Catholic home and have been exposed to Catholicism but for one reason or another, they did not want to believe. Every religion with over 1 billion people will have those (I should have probably said “both” because if I am not mistaken there are only two religions that have 1 billion members, Islam being the other).

As to the issue of the Blessed Mother, we venerate the Blessed Mother NOT worship her. There is a difference. To venerate as defined by Webster’s Dictionary is “to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference.”

I hope this helps. God bless.

“Hail Mary full of grace, blessed are thou among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus, Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners now and in eternity.Amen.”

Isthis the prayer ?

 

[Roy5]

Hi -

Why do I find it inappropriate to argue over Mary? I respect her as the mother of Jesus, but would not think of praying to her when I can go directly to Christ. In fact, I am troubled when I run across the huge list of Catholic saints, all of whom supposedly can be addressed in prayer for the purpose of obtaining special favors. Why does that sound like paganism to me?

 On the other hand, I respect Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism, Jainism and various Native American religious traditions. Certainly, then, I must respect different expressions of Christianity. I doubt if it does any damage to pray sincerely to Mary and the saints. God surely knows the intentions of our hearts and smiles on all efforts to express our honest faith.

  What does trouble me, however, is when any religion or religious person claims to possess the only true faith, that all other faiths are invalid or al least seriously wrong. I believe that none of us knows all that much when it comes to ultimate religious truth, that "we know in part" only as St. Paul wrote. Religion so often has been the source of bigotry, arrogance and violence when it should be a bridge between people of faith. God is far too big to be contained in only one set of doctrines. When we get to 'heaven' my guess is that God will congratulate those who tried their best to love him and one another and frown upon those pious souls who condemned every religion but their own.

  Back to Mary. No, I don't pray to her. But if others want to pray to her, fine. If others want to pray to Buddha, fine. As long as they don't tell me I'm going to hell because I don't share their faith - well, be my guest. I am content with my faith and hope you are with yours.

  Keep smiling - and praying.

 

[pauliztarza]

Hi -

Why do I find it inappropriate to argue over Mary? I respect her as the mother of Jesus, but would not think of praying to her when I can go directly to Christ. In fact, I am troubled when I run across the huge list of Catholic saints, all of whom supposedly can be addressed in prayer for the purpose of obtaining special favors. Why does that sound like paganism to me?

 On the other hand, I respect Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism, Jainism and various Native American religious traditions. Certainly, then, I must respect different expressions of Christianity. I doubt if it does any damage to pray sincerely to Mary and the saints. God surely knows the intentions of our hearts and smiles on all efforts to express our honest faith.

  What does trouble me, however, is when any religion or religious person claims to possess the only true faith, that all other faiths are invalid or al least seriously wrong. I believe that none of us knows all that much when it comes to ultimate religious truth, that "we know in part" only as St. Paul wrote. Religion so often has been the source of bigotry, arrogance and violence when it should be a bridge between people of faith. God is far too big to be contained in only one set of doctrines. When we get to 'heaven' my guess is that God will congratulate those who tried their best to love him and one another and frown upon those pious souls who condemned every religion but their own.

  Back to Mary. No, I don't pray to her. But if others want to pray to her, fine. If others want to pray to Buddha, fine. As long as they don't tell me I'm going to hell because I don't share their faith - well, be my guest. I am content with my faith and hope you are with yours.

  Keep smiling - and praying.

Would you consider Jews praying to Baal also praying to right god ?

 

[Roy5]

Would you consider Jews praying to Baal also praying to right god ?

Hm! Would I consider Jews praying to Baal also praying to the right god?

 I presume you are referring to the contest between Elijah and the 'prophets of Baal' (I Kings 18). To begin with, I consider the story just that - a story based on legend or myth. That the fire of the Lord fell on the offering etc - pious fiction designed to make the ancient Hebrews feel superior to their neighbors who they were killing off one by one so as to grab their land. Propaganda pure and simple. Like various other fables in the Old Testament.

  And then, of course, Elijah had the 400 prophets of Baal seized and all killed. Something Jesus might do? Give me a break.

   I respect all faiths that honestly seeks to worship God unless (1) they murder in the name of God - like Elijah in this account and Muslims crazies today; or (2) they condemn every other faith - like Elijah did in this episode and those same Muslims and many Christians do today - including many Catholis and evangelical Protestants. 

  You can see that I am not one to believe in many of the massacres of the Old Testament. Do you really think that God told Joshua to kill every inhabitant of Jericho (Joshua 6:21)? Or that God ordered Saul to murder every Amalekite, women and children included I Sam. 15:3)? Sorry, but I could not worship such a blood-thirsty god. And how does it conform to the Sermon on the Mount and the teachings of Christ?  WWJD?

   I'm not fond of Christopher Hitchens, but he is right when he points our that much evil has been done in the name of religion. The Old Testament is full of it. And we see it in the world today.

   What we need is a serious effort to understand the faiths of others rather than demonize them. We don't need to agree, of course, but learn to live in peace and harmony. I believe that Christ would encourage us in this. On several occasions, for example, he made Samaritans the heroes (Good Samaritan, leper who returned to give thanks, etc.). The Samaritan religion had diverged from Judaism and the Jews despised them. But Christ demonstrated that they were worthy of respect.

 

[pauliztarza]

Hm! Would I consider Jews praying to Baal also praying to the right god?

 I presume you are referring to the contest between Elijah and the 'prophets of Baal' (I Kings 18). To begin with, I consider the story just that - a story based on legend or myth. That the fire of the Lord fell on the offering etc - pious fiction designed to make the ancient Hebrews feel superior to their neighbors who they were killing off one by one so as to grab their land. Propaganda pure and simple. Like various other fables in the Old Testament.

  And then, of course, Elijah had the 400 prophets of Baal seized and all killed. Something Jesus might do? Give me a break.

   I respect all faiths that honestly seeks to worship God unless (1) they murder in the name of God - like Elijah in this account and Muslims crazies today; or (2) they condemn every other faith - like Elijah did in this episode and those same Muslims and many Christians do today - including many Catholis and evangelical Protestants. 

  You can see that I am not one to believe in many of the massacres of the Old Testament. Do you really think that God told Joshua to kill every inhabitant of Jericho (Joshua 6:21)? Or that God ordered Saul to murder every Amalekite, women and children included I Sam. 15:3)? Sorry, but I could not worship such a blood-thirsty god. And how does it conform to the Sermon on the Mount and the teachings of Christ?  WWJD?

   I'm not fond of Christopher Hitchens, but he is right when he points our that much evil has been done in the name of religion. The Old Testament is full of it. And we see it in the world today.

   What we need is a serious effort to understand the faiths of others rather than demonize them. We don't need to agree, of course, but learn to live in peace and harmony. I believe that Christ would encourage us in this. On several occasions, for example, he made Samaritans the heroes (Good Samaritan, leper who returned to give thanks, etc.). The Samaritan religion had diverged from Judaism and the Jews despised them. But Christ demonstrated that they were worthy of respect.

Each one of them - the inhabitants of Jericho, not including Rahab and her family. Would you also question God didn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah ?

Yes, God ordered Saul through the prophet Samuel to execute nations that were bad to the core. That is the first covenant with Israel. And it didn’t work. Because they - Israel - sinned all the time - Saul kept the cattle “because his men did so” (Cost him the kingdom and life afterwards).

“Evil done in the name of religion” - again would you consider destruction of Sodom - they all died in that place - as evil ?

 

[Tammy111]

I recently reconciled with the Church from Protestistism. I agree with Michael many cradle Catholics don’t know their faith. It is sad when the faith entrusted to the saints and received by us is rich beyond explanation.

 

[Good_Fella]

I recently reconciled with the Church from Protestistism. I agree with Michael many cradle Catholics don’t know their faith. It is sad when the faith entrusted to the saints and received by us is rich beyond explanation.

Welcome home, Tammy. :extrahappy:

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Annatar]

On another forum, I was arguing that that Church does not preach Worship of Mary…
I was then presented with this…

*What Rome offically teaches concerning Mary

From Vatican Collection Volume 1, Vatican Council II, The Conciliar and Post Conciliar documents. General Editor Austin Flannery, O.P. New revised edition 1992; Costello Publishing Company, Northport, New York. 1992 pages 420-421 (par. 65)

1. But while in the most Blessed Virgin the church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle (cf. Eph. 5:27), the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they turn their eyes to Mary who shines forth to the whole community of the elect as the model of virtues. Devoutly meditating on her and contemplating her in the light of the Word made man, the Church reverently penetrates more deeply into the great mystery of the Incarnation and becomes more and more like her spouse. Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the Faith: and when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father. Seeking after the glory of Christ, the Church becomes more like her lofty type, and continually progresses in faith, hope and charity, seeking and doing the will of God in all things. The Church, therefore, in her apostolic work too, rightly looks to her who gave birth to Christ, who was thus conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin, in order that through the church he could be born and increase in the hearts of the faithful. In her life the Virgin has been a model of that motherly love with which all who joined in the church’s apostolic mission for the regeneration of mankind should be animated.*

Is this a falsehood, a mistranslation, a typo, a mistake or…???

How can we argue something when something like this is presented???

 

[PinoyCatholic]

Look to the original documents from the sources themselves.

A quick Google at the website of the Vatican and EWTN reveal no such words in their english translation. The closest that the original translations have is “venerate”.

So who do we believe? Someone with an ax to grind or the original sources of the statement?

 

[Annatar]

Look to the original documents from the sources themselves.

A quick Google at the website of the Vatican and EWTN reveal no such words in their english translation. The closest that the original translations have is “venerate”.

So who do we believe? Someone with an ax to grind or the original sources of the statement?

Thanks for that PinoyCatholic, you put my mind at ease - big time !!! . I will do that.
I spose thats what I get for trusting fellow “Christians”/Non-Catholics.
Although it may have been an honest mistake on their part… maybe.

 

[PinoyCatholic]

No problem. I’ve learned through the discussions here to always verify the sources presented in an argument. That and the old adage “Text without context is pretext” have gotten me a long way in understanding the Faith.

I’m willing to give those who presented that to you the benefit of the doubt, but I’d remember Christ’s words to us in Matthew 10:16: “Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves.”

 

[Annatar]

No problem. I’ve learned through the discussions here to always verify the sources presented in an argument. That and the old adage “Text without context is pretext” have gotten me a long way in understanding the Faith.

I’m willing to give those who presented that to you the benefit of the doubt, but I’d remember Christ’s words to us in Matthew 10:16: “Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves.”

I checked and yes its like you said.
Thanks again for that. It was silly of me not to check earlier.

You have no idea how much better I feel. When I originally read it I felt stabbed in the back.
I’ve learned a good lesson today. Thank you again for that. I’ll pray that God rewards you big time for this!