Marital Foreplay and Sex

[TheRealJuliane]

Her husband is not climaxing during phase II at all, as I understand it. She sometimes is. That’s why I think it seems more unclear.

Hmmmm…I read it that her husband IS climaxing, through what they are calling foreplay. Which actually seems to be several sex acts over the course of a day or two or three. The OP is being somewhat veiled in how she is wording what is really going on, which I have seen on this forum when posters desperately want to justify what they are doing as being OK because…(insert rationalization)

And at the end of the discussions, they usually post something like, “In spite of everything that you have told me about what the Church teaches, we are going to keep doing what we have been, and hope that it will all come out OK in the end.”



It is possible that I am wrong, I will go back and re-read the whole thread to see if I have assumed something that’s not happening.

Edited: OK, I see she did say in her first post that he is not climaxing during their sexual acts. Sorry for assuming that oral sex would lead to a finish…I don’t know very many men who could then just go about their day without a heck of a lot of sexual tension and/or pain.

Sorry, OP, for assuming that your husband was reaching a climax in other ways than vaginal intercourse.

 

[searching04]

Posting one’s opinion on a thread when one’s opinion is contrary to Church teaching is not charitable either, and wastes the OP’s time and the forum’s bandwidth. But there are some subjects that always draw the dissenters. I expected no less.

That is your opinion, and that is why they are called opinions, and viewpoints do indeed differ, even if you disagree. Some posters may well feel alone in their struggles; whether you agree or not, it is just as important for those same posters to know others are struggling and questioning and hey, even searching, too.

Wastes bandwidth? Are you serious? I mean, I know you’d rather not have me here, but…

Why is this subject “drawing dissenters” so different from any other subject drawing dissenters? There are other controversial subjects as well - immigration, death penalty, war. Should people who disagree or not fully comprehend church teachings on those go away, too?

I am well aware, as you are, that sex is a senstive subject; we are both aware that quite obviously, Catholics struggle with it. My impression from your posts here and previous ones as well is that you just flat out refuse to and/or do not understand how some people do indeed have questions and struggle and even disagree with church teachings on sex. Guess what? There are some of us who wonder and yes, even admire, how others out there seem to so easily grasp it. Should we still just go away?

 

[etmom]

Hmmmm…I read it that her husband IS climaxing, through what they are calling foreplay. Which actually seems to be several sex acts over the course of a day or two or three. The OP is being somewhat veiled in how she is wording what is really going on, which I have seen on this forum when posters desperately want to justify what they are doing as being OK because…(insert rationalization)

And at the end of the discussions, they usually post something like, “In spite of everything that you have told me about what the Church teaches, we are going to keep doing what we have been, and hope that it will all come out OK in the end.”



It is possible that I am wrong, I will go back and re-read the whole thread to see if I have assumed something that’s not happening.

This is her quote from her thread on the Family life forum:

Thank you for the replies.

I am a well educated Catholic, and I have been trying to look to original documents lately. Kimberly Hanh’s book I read one year ago was the first time the teaching of “serious reason” entered into my life. To be honest, I did not believe her. I thought she was crazy to say that a woman would need to go through as much sacrifice and physical torment as she had and still not have a reason good enough to practice NFP. I remember one part of her book she states that she has had several miscarriages and she knows she will have more…I closed the book and cried, and said if I knew I was going to lose all my children in the whom, then I would no longer have them (by NFP, not abc).

“Serious reasons” has been the issue I have struggling with this last year. Currently we are postponing pregnancy for no reason other than to space births (our youngest is 12 months). As of the last few days however, a new part of this has struck me in a terribly defeating way.

As as way to keep our lives intimate throughout phase 2, we engage in foreplay for several days that sometimes extends into my orgasm. He does not penetrate, nor does he climax. Over the last year this seemed to have been an appropriate use of our time and love. I can’t find an original document that says foreplay has to end in his orgasm every time immediately following. How can any part of the marital embrace be sinful?

I was always under the belief that intentional climax for either spouse outside intercourse was not permitted either.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

That is your opinion, and that is why they are called opinions, and viewpoints do indeed differ, even if you disagree. Some posters may well feel alone in their struggles; whether you agree or not, it is just as important for those same posters to know others are struggling and questioning and hey, even searching, too.

Wastes bandwidth? Are you serious? I mean, I know you’d rather not have me here, but…

Why is this subject “drawing dissenters” so different from any other subject drawing dissenters? There are other controversial subjects as well - immigration, death penalty, war. Should people who disagree or not fully comprehend church teachings on those go away, too?

I am well aware, as you are, that sex is a senstive subject; we are both aware that quite obviously, Catholics struggle with it. My impression from your posts here and previous ones as well is that you just flat out refuse to and/or do not understand how some people do indeed have questions and struggle and even disagree with church teachings on sex. Guess what? There are some of us who wonder and yes, even admire, how others out there seem to so easily grasp it. Should we still just go away?

You have got to be kidding me. ME not understanding how people can have struggles with Church teaching? I am married to a Catholic in name only, and we married when both of us were lapsed. We’ve had premarital sex, used contraception, and done anything we wanted sexually. Even when I returned to the Church, I still didn’t realize that some of what we were doing was absolutely sinful. Only recently have I had the courage to talk to my husband about this. Believe me, I understand. It is just that I also accept the Church’s correctness about sex, period. No arguments. The only problem is whether I can surrender my own will to that of God’s will for me. It’s never easy. And I know it’s not easy for young and fertile couples, which we no longer are.

I deeply regret every aspect of my past sexual life. Every. single. aspect. I have a hard time believing that God has forgiven me for my sins, I worry every day that I am not worthy of achieving even purgatory, let alone Heaven. If I carry that burden the rest of my life, so be it. I still advise others to get in line with the Church, no matter what mental twists they want to engage in. For the sake of their souls, it’s all I can advise. And I can pray for them.

 

[searching04]

You have got to be kidding me. ME not understanding how people can have struggles with Church teaching? I am married to a Catholic in name only, and we married when both of us were lapsed. We’ve had premarital sex, used contraception, and done anything we wanted sexually. Even when I returned to the Church, I still didn’t realize that some of what we were doing was absolutely sinful. Only recently have I had the courage to talk to my husband about this. Believe me, I understand. It is just that I also accept the Church’s correctness about sex, period. No arguments. The only problem is whether I can surrender my own will to that of God’s will for me. It’s never easy. And I know it’s not easy for young and fertile couples, which we no longer are.

I deeply regret every aspect of my past sexual life. Every. single. aspect. I have a hard time believing that God has forgiven me for my sins, I worry every day that I am not worthy of achieving even purgatory, let alone Heaven. If I carry that burden the rest of my life, so be it. I still advise others to get in line with the Church, no matter what mental twists they want to engage in. For the sake of their souls, it’s all I can advise. And I can pray for them.

Well, now your passion on this makes a heck of a lot more sense.

 

[Corki]

To be frank, I don’t mind completely abstaining during phase 2. If I can’t finish, then I don’t want to start, know what I mean? My husband loves foreplay- day and night he is wanting action. As a dutiful wife, I feel it is my job to engage in it because the Church also teaches that.

We are not ready for another baby, and I have to tell him “no sex”. So he wants to do “everything” else. After reading numerous documents, and trying to define terms, I simply do not see how it is sinful?

Please define masturbation…and if there are no time constraints on foreplay, how could a person say that I am replacing sex when my entire married life if peppered with touching, kissing, and eroticism throughout phase 1, 2, and 3?

Just a few points. First, what you are describing is not really foreplay, it’s petting - sometimes heavy petting. Petting can include masturbating the other partner.

Second, it is** not **your job, according to Church teaching, to engage in sexually arrousing activity when you have no intention of having sex. That has nothing to do with being a “dutiful wife”.

If I can’t finish, then I don’t want to start, know what I mean?

This is a very mature and faithful attitude. It sounds like your husband is not respecting you in this, however.

I cannot abandon my husbands need for intimacy in phase 2. That would seem ti be a bigger sin. I will just do the best that I can with what I have to offer.

Of course you can’t abandon your husband’s need for intimacy. However, if you have **mutually **decided that it is not a good time to have another child, you can help your husband appreciate intimacy that is not about sexual arrousal. Constantly arrousing each other is cute and even romantic when you are newlyweds anxious to start a family but if you have made the decision to abstain for the sake of the family, which is what NFP is, then you need to dial it down.

 

[NFP1Kate]

I wanted to thank you all for posting, those that were in agreement and those that aren’t.

I am truly doing the best that I can to be a faithful Catholic. I am tired of hearing one priest say something is ok, and then another saying it is not. I have become skeptical of advice and stopped seeking it. I wanted original documents, because I felt it was the only way I could understand the truth.

This afternoon, my husband has said he is “deeply disheartened” by this. He wants to engage in sexual activity throughout the month. We need to discover what is permissible during phase 2 and what is not. I do not understand how anyone can determine that sexual activity within marriage is sinful- even the Church. What did married people do before TOB then?

Natural law makes sense to me…NFP (although frustrating) makes sense to me. Most Catholics, and I think searching04 would agree…sexually abstaining from the person you love is painful. With a great lack of direction in parishes, couples cannot live out their vocations correctly and fruitful. We all need direction. Being told, “hey you’re married, congrats…now practice your chastity and don’t stray or you’re guilty of sin and deserving of hellfire”, that is defeating.

I could not find Contemporary Moral Theology at the bookstore, but I picked up a couple others that I will probably finish cover to cover tonight.

@searching04, In my greatest agony I have thrived spiritually the most only when I continue to have faith. Persevere and you shall too. I feel your pain, and I empathize.

 

[Qoeleth]

Such issues are for private conscience, and arguably not appropriately discussed publicly. Maybe this is why the Church has no teachings on this matter.

 

[underacloud]

OK, I see she did say in her first post that he is not climaxing during their sexual acts. Sorry for assuming that oral sex would lead to a finish…I don’t know very many men who could then just go about their day without a heck of a lot of sexual tension and/or pain.

Yes, quite apart from the question of morality of such activities, I think this sort of behaviour can really cause great discomfort for a man (I know this well). It is natural for married couples to want to be intimate, and the fertile phase of NFP becomes a difficult balancing act of remaining affectionate with your spouse while avoiding going too far. Earlier in our marriage, we often “affectionately cuddled” during this phase, but it left us both (especially me as the man) feeling frustrated and in my case physically uncomfortable. Later in our marriage, we simply avoid being overly physically affectionate in this phase and try to show our affection in other ways.

As for the morality of it, I agree with what Bookcat has said earlier, although I concede it’s not something that you’ll find directly addressed in Church teaching (the Church doesn’t give us instructions regarding every detail of our lives). But I agree that foreplay is something done in preparation for intercourse, within the one marital act. It is not something done days ahead of intercourse. Just because it may be hard to define - the timeframe for foreplay - doesn’t mean that any timeframe is acceptable. Think of a meal: I may eat an entree before my main meal, as part of the meal; I may even eat many entrees as part of a degustation meal; but I couldn’t properly say that the sandwich I ate for lunch was an entree to the meal I ate for dinner.

 

[Bookcat]

I wanted to thank you all for posting, those that were in agreement and those that aren’t.

I am truly doing the best that I can to be a faithful Catholic. I am tired of hearing one priest say something is ok, and then another saying it is not. I have become skeptical of advice and stopped seeking it. I wanted original documents, because I felt it was the only way I could understand the truth.

This afternoon, my husband has said he is “deeply disheartened” by this. He wants to engage in sexual activity throughout the month. We need to discover what is permissible during phase 2 and what is not. I do not understand how anyone can determine that sexual activity within marriage is sinful- even the Church. What did married people do before TOB then?

This is an area to be treated by Orthodox Catholic Moral Theology…the Church does not get into issuing documents necessarily that goes into all the “details”.

But Moral Theology applies the various Christian Moral Principles to Marriage…can thus get more into the “details”.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9173987&postcount=18
*
Certainly* neither the husband or the wife may seek or consent to or be in a near occasion of climaxing apart from the marital act (see my other posts above)

Prior to TOB there was yes still this sort of teaching.

 

[Kithrus]

I always had a problem with the idea that men can not climax anywhere save within their wives.

Excuse my bluntness.

See the mans body without any stimulation will give into a wet dream resulting in ‘spit seed’ which the church sees to be a no no.

I’m a strong defender of the church but this is a moral oversight imo. You can’t treat seed as this sacred fluid which you have these unrealistic rules on when and how when you a overflow valve that dumps the excess.

I’m a philosopher everything must make sense!

This doesn’t mean I’m advocated perverted use of sex far from it but suggesting that men are sinners because they finish unexpectedly is a tad presumptuous.

I think once the lights go out in the bed room of the married couples the churches work s done.

Period.

 

[Nate13]

I always had a problem with the idea that men can not climax anywhere save within their wives.

Excuse my bluntness.

See the mans body without any stimulation will give into a wet dream resulting in ‘spit seed’ which the church sees to be a no no.

I’m a strong defender of the church but this is a moral oversight imo. You can’t treat seed as this sacred fluid which you have these unrealistic rules on when and how when you a overflow valve that dumps the excess.

I’m a philosopher everything must make sense!

This doesn’t mean I’m advocated perverted use of sex far from it but suggesting that men are sinners because they finish unexpectedly is a tad presumptuous.

I think once the lights go out in the bed room of the married couples the churches work s done.

Period.

Hmm well let me correct a misconception first. You only have a sin assuming the act was deliberate. In other words if it happens unexpectedly during foreplay or we are talking about wet dreams that is not a sin. Deliberate sexual stimulation that is not directed towards fulfilling both the procreative and unitive purposes of sex is immoral though, period.

Just because the Church argues murder is a sin, does not mean it says its also a mortal sin if by some freak accident you cause the death of someone completely unintentionally. Murder by definition is the deliberate intentional killing of an innocent life. Contraception by definition is the deliberate intentional separation of the unitive and procreative meanings of sex.

 

[Bookcat]

I always had a problem with the idea that men can not climax anywhere save within their wives.

Excuse my bluntness.

See the mans body without any stimulation will give into a wet dream resulting in ‘spit seed’ which the church sees to be a no no.

I’m a strong defender of the church but this is a moral oversight imo. You can’t treat seed as this sacred fluid which you have these unrealistic rules on when and how when you a overflow valve that dumps the excess.

I’m a philosopher everything must make sense!

This doesn’t mean I’m advocated perverted use of sex far from it but suggesting that men are sinners because they finish unexpectedly is a tad presumptuous.

I think once the lights go out in the bed room of the married couples the churches work s done.

Period.

We live as Christians everywhere…lights on or off.

Is it a sin for a nocturnal emission to happen without consent? No off course not. Nor it is it a sin when the drink unknowingly a poisoned drink. But it is a sin to consent to climax outside the marital act (etc) and it is a sin to drink a poisoned drink knowingly.

(PS: “Accidents” may be without any sin by the way…or there may be sin…depending.)

 

[LucyLight]

While you can have extended foreplay, it’s not foreplay any more if you stop and do something else. So if the sequence is something like foreplay, climax, sleep, feed the kids, go to work, foreplay, sex - it would not be moral.

This is your opinion of what is appropriate. There is an issue with semantics here. Some people would consider a prolonged kiss arousing and therefore foreplay. You are not going to find a church teaching that says sexual touch is not allowed between married people unless they engage in full intercourse.

I think the idea of extended foreplay(making out, intimately embracing etc.) is a great idea and helps couples get through a period of abstaining. Of course you shouldn’t bring each other to the brink of orgasm and you should only do as much as you can handle.

 

[Corki]

This is your opinion of what is appropriate. There is an issue with semantics here. Some people would consider a prolonged kiss arousing and therefore foreplay. You are not going to find a church teaching that says sexual touch is not allowed between married people unless they engage in full intercourse.

I think the idea of extended foreplay(making out, intimately embracing etc.) is a great idea and helps couples get through a period of abstaining. Of course you shouldn’t bring each other to the brink of orgasm and you should only do as much as you can handle.

The OP didn’t say “on the brink of orgasm”. She was talking about one spouse bringing the other to orgasm days before or after engaging in sex. That is not the same act anymore than petting while dating is part of consumating your marriage on your wedding night.

 

[NFP1Kate]

OK…so I get the teaching…however, I want to push the envelop to see how far I can go.

In phase 2 we have no intention of having full intercourse. He does not penetrate me, nor does he climax. There is no sin of Onan.

We want to be intimate. If the intention is purely wanting to be together but refraining from intercourse, can we mess around a lot if we both don’t orgasm?

I know that would drive most people crazy, but we like it. As long as we don’t climax, it sounds like, in Church teaching, we can pretty much everything.

 

[twoangels]

OK…so I get the teaching…however, I want to push the envelop to see how far I can go.

In phase 2 we have no intention of having full intercourse. He does not penetrate me, nor does he climax. There is no sin of Onan.

We want to be intimate. If the intention is purely wanting to be together but refraining from intercourse, can we mess around a lot if we both don’t orgasm?

I know that would drive most people crazy, but we like it. As long as we don’t climax, it sounds like, in Church teaching, we can pretty much everything.

As I said before, I think the key to understanding it is to understand that if your spouse requests sex, you should not refuse it. As such, you need to think seriously about how serious your motivation is to abstain. You don’t want to turn it into an occassion of sin (where you habitually avoid intercourse by compromising to masturbation) or don’t want to turn the denial of conjugal rights. You don’t want one person losing their resolve while the other person says “Look we had an agreement so the answer is no. Get away from me now.” That form of rejection I think is far more severe than any moral compromising of rejecting merely the fertility of a person. You end up still treating your spouse’s fertility like some disease that needs to be quarentined, rather than handled with latex gloves and masks.

It is different than when you are dating though because having sex is not sinful (nor is getting pregnant). We are not to view our fertility as a disease. As such, I do think it is immoral for couples to become cold and unloving with no expressions of love and intimacy during the fertile time. If you’re sending your spouse to a different bedroom and rushing through your day to avoid your spouse so you won’t be tempted, you’re rejecting your spouse. You again are treating your fertility as a disease that needs to be quarentened.

So its very important to love each other in multiple ways during your periods of abstainence. At least how my husband use the term “messing around” it does include messing around. It may be though benefitial to learn the acryonym SPICE to broaden up how you express your love and grow in intimacy.

Spiritual
Physical
Intellectual
Communicative/Creative
Emotional

 

[fpt]

When wife and husband are okay for no marital act, they have the right to give physical affection between them.

For instance:

a kiss on mouth, a french kiss, a kiss on the forehead, a kiss on the hands, a kiss on shoulders, a kiss on the nose, a kiss in neck, a kiss on ears, a kiss on eyes, a kiss on feet, a kiss on chest, a kiss on breasts, a kiss on nipples, a kiss on the back.

A rub on the top part of the body of each one;
A caress on the top part of the body of each one;
Wife and husband can sleep together in the same bed, even totally naked.

Natural erection of husband does not automatically mean to keep going for having sexual intercourse;

The marital intimacy without sex is morally okay, of course, because we are not brother and sister. We are a couple, we are wife and husband.

 

[Marybeloved]

Rather than just find an official document that forbids it, I think its better to simply pray about it and study different texts. I don’t find Christopher West or even Gregory Popcak adequate study material. They’re good reads, but for deeper integration, I would recommend going to Eucharistic adoration with a copy of Humanae Vitae. In fact, what I’d do is take a bag with Humanae Vitae, the bible, “Man and Woman He created them” (best translation of TOB there is right now) and “Why Humanae Vitae was right: a Reader.” Then spend some minutes praying for humility and honesty. Its like doing a good examination of conscience. You pray for the Holy Spirit to enlighten your mind and to help you avoid the two extreems of denying sin and becoming overscruplous.

Ultimately what you want to do is allow these books to become integrated into your conscience. This is a form of educating your conscience. It is completely different from relying on other people’s consciences to be your conscience. After all, Christopher West is not infallible nor is anyone else on these forums.

OP, I think Twoangels gives you the best advice here in this post.

It’s not a list, nor a technicality, but an integrated vision of who a human is: A child of God and of the love of a man and his wife in God’s will/plan. Remember that underlying and driving the church’s teaching on marriage, love and sex is the value that God has placed in each of his children which cannot be measured.

The sin of lust in whatever area it manifests itself: marriage, single life, in action or thought etc- involves nothing other than this- objectifying the children of God, making means and tools of your spouse and fellow human beings. It is using one who is you brother or sister in the Lord. This objectifying, when happens in the context or geared towards sex, is called lust in motivation, or unchastity in action, thought and behavior. It’s the value of the human being that makes every sin of lust grave matter, even just thoughts. It’s not just about the actions that you do by themselves, its what these actions signify, what they mean also- it’s the degrading that you do to another in your heart, whom you should value for themselves when you see them as tools for pleasure.

Read the teachings of Pope John Paul II and other Popes and the Catechism on marriage, love and sex for yourself. Do it even as spiritual reading and part of prayer as Twoangels has said. Read the writings of the Saints- No one is better able to identify the selfish, lustful, self-seeking impulses in us better than the Saints. They are the experts on the inner life of man, and the church has put them up before us as the ideal/example to emulate and teachers to follow. After a while, you will get the “mind” of the church, her perspective on things and you’ll be able to tell in all sincerity whether each thing you do in your marriage is motivated by lust or genuine Christian charity. The mistake is to just assume that every impulse we feel is OK just because we are married- Some are purely geared towards selfishness of some kind or other, which in sex the Church calls lust. Prayer and reading the Popes, Saints and Doctors will help you see in time just what is legitimate (That is- with love as its center and driving force) and what is not (with lust at its centre).

Blessing,
From: I love Mary!

 

[fpt]

By principle, the definition and the meaning of masturbation have to be seen with a strict acception (stricto sensu) and not with a large acception (lato sensu).

Thus, in the couple, what is masturbation? What are the material elements of masturbation? What are the intellectual elements of masturbation?