Marital Foreplay and Sex

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I have looked up EWTN forums as well already…the priest answering the questions also says that “oral is to be avoided” in another post, and he does not site a source in any post. It seems to be his opinion on Church teaching.

I have been reading each document that the pp have recommended, and I am still not seeing the direct link to female orgasm.

To be frank, I don’t mind completely abstaining during phase 2. If I can’t finish, then I don’t want to start, know what I mean? My husband loves foreplay- day and night he is wanting action. As a dutiful wife, I feel it is my job to engage in it because the Church also teaches that.

We are not ready for another baby, and I have to tell him “no sex”. So he wants to do “everything” else. After reading numerous documents, and trying to define terms, I simply do not see how it is sinful?

Please define masturbation…and if there are no time constraints on foreplay, how could a person say that I am replacing sex when my entire married life if peppered with touching, kissing, and eroticism throughout phase 1, 2, and 3?
 
I am currently reading, the offenses against chastity in the CCC (vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm)

I speaks of masturbation outside of marriage. If mutual masturbation were sinful inside of marriage, wouldn’t it be noted in this section?

PP quoted CCC 2351" Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes."

I see this argument fitting in the context of unmarried people or couples using each other for pleasure. In my marriage, I am completely giving myself to my husband because he wants to please me. I don’t see how that is lustful.
 
There is no question as to climax outside of the context of the marital act.

Such would be gravely sinful.
 
NFP1Kate said:
I am currently reading, the offenses against chastity in the CCC (vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm)

I speaks of masturbation outside of marriage. If mutual masturbation were sinful inside of marriage, wouldn’t it be noted in this section?
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Pornography is also listed in that section…but that too is gravely sinful even in Marriage.

The CCC is not intended as an exhaustive dictionary of moral theology…

(PS and it speaks of “Masturbation” it does not refer to “masturbation outside of marriage”…)
 
I was hoping to find a clear cut answer, but in the end I have more questions. Even the original documents are being debated depending on the persons worldview.

I read once, somewhere, that a person should pray the rosary every day. A person cannot live in sin and continue to pray the rosary, they will either give up the sin, or give up the rosary. With that said, I will continue to pray for guidance and see where the faith takes me. And I will trust in the mercy of Christ when I have failed.

I cannot abandon my husbands need for intimacy in phase 2. That would seem ti be a bigger sin. I will just do the best that I can with what I have to offer.
 
NFP1Kate said:
I am a young devout Catholic, wife, and mother. We have been practicing NFP for about a year and I have found myself very frustrated with the teachings on this. And I would like to see some original documents (not Christopher West- TOB, I want originals)

During phase 2 we enjoy foreplay that can last for days before phase 3 hits and we can have full marital relations. I cannot find any official Church teaching that states all foreplay must end in vaginal intercourse immediately following. Humanae Vitae 14 refers to preventing pregnancy, but NFP, by it’s very nature is avoiding pregnancy not preventing it. It is not onanism because there is no penetration, and he does not climax.

The forums are unclear as well. One priest says that oral sex should be avoided, another says it is perfectly fine. I see nothing wrong with oral in the original documents, JPII doesn’t discuss it in TOB, and the Code of Canon Law states “unitive” before “procreation” (that is a change from the 1917 version). Please, anyone, show me where it states that a couple commits a sin by having foreplay (even foreplay to the extent of female orgasm) without vaginal intercourse.

It seems TOB gives an ideal for sex, but how can marital sex that is less than ideal be sinful? 🤷
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Rather than just find an official document that forbids it, I think its better to simply pray about it and study different texts. I don’t find Christopher West or even Gregory Popcak adequate study material. They’re good reads, but for deeper integration, I would recommend going to Eucharistic adoration with a copy of Humanae Vitae. In fact, what I’d do is take a bag with Humanae Vitae, the bible, “Man and Woman He created them” (best translation of TOB there is right now) and “Why Humanae Vitae was right: a Reader.” Then spend some minutes praying for humility and honesty. Its like doing a good examination of conscience. You pray for the Holy Spirit to enlighten your mind and to help you avoid the two extreems of denying sin and becoming overscruplous.

Ultimately what you want to do is allow these books to become integrated into your conscience. This is a form of educating your conscience. It is completely different from relying on other people’s consciences to be your conscience. After all, Christopher West is not infallible nor is anyone else on these forums.
 
The capacity for rationalization knows no bounds. Thanks, original sin!

@NFPKate: where is the procreative signifcance/aspect in what you two are doing in Phase II? It is not procreative (ordered to procreation) at all. Per the CCC definition, is not what you are doing separating the procreative from the unitive? Put another way, if you were trying to get pregnant, is what you are doing necessary to that?

Ask your husband the defense attorney a few questions. One, where is his authority that specifically permits what he wants to do? Two, what is his role in determining what is licit and what is not? Is he the advocate, or the judge? I would suggest to you and him that what he is doing is advocating a position, but the Church is the judge.
 
choose_to_love said:
Put another way, if you were trying to get pregnant, is what you are doing necessary to that?
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There are many things not necessary to achieve pregnancy that are allowable. So, those “other words” are not helpful to a resolution.
 
searching04 said:
Disagree and it goes to the OP’s point - there is no time frame whatsoever given for foreplay. It is allowed for the husband to bring his wife to orgasm via masturbation before, during, and after an intercourse session. Yes, if there are days before intercourse and days of foreplay (lucky couple!), I can see a question. I say it goes to intent, to some degree. Again, there is no church teaching whasoever on time frames, so how can anyone here say what is and is not permissible?
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While you can have extended foreplay, it’s not foreplay any more if you stop and do something else. So if the sequence is something like foreplay, climax, sleep, feed the kids, go to work, foreplay, sex - it would not be moral.
 
NFP1Kate said:
I was hoping to find a clear cut answer, but in the end I have more questions. Even the original documents are being debated depending on the persons worldview.

I read once, somewhere, that a person should pray the rosary every day. A person cannot live in sin and continue to pray the rosary, they will either give up the sin, or give up the rosary. With that said, I will continue to pray for guidance and see where the faith takes me. And I will trust in the mercy of Christ when I have failed.

I cannot abandon my husbands need for intimacy in phase 2. That would seem ti be a bigger sin. I will just do the best that I can with what I have to offer.
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This makes me so sad. Your husband cannot climax outside of your body, even if you call it foreplay, without it being a grave sin. How can there be a bigger sin than that?
 
I think all of this assumes that a man cannot find enjoyment without release of seed. The sin would be in releasing semen outside of the proper context, but climaxing is not always accompanied by such. You and your husband can please each other and satisfy one another needs without ejaculation.
 
Nate13 said:
I’m ok with the post. The poster specified it was “just me” and wasn’t misrepresenting Church opinion. It still makes me wonder why they post though when the OP clearly wants to know the Church’s position. Why people choose to let out their personal frustration at the Church on threads that are not their own I will not understand.
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You really wonder?

Here.

The Answer
 
TheRealJuliane said:
No, it’s back to, “If you disagree with what the Church teaches, hush up.”
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Same difference and not charitable.

There is no reason for people who disagree to hush up, just because you don’t like it or more so, because you have not been able yet to convince someone otherwise. How do you know a light may not come on at some point? You don’t.
 
NFP1Kate said:
Yes, that is what I am looking for…I don’t think it does exist. I have done so much research, and the same HV 14 and Casti Connubi keep popping up but it doesn’t address this specifically.

My husband has many sessions where he climaxes (vaginally), but I don’t. I am ok with that, occasionally it goes in reverse. The last few days I have been told that is sinful. HOW?

If female orgasm is sinful without full intercourse, then where would we draw the line during foreplay? Kissing is ok…touch is ok…but then we’re cut off? I know Christopher West talks about it, but it seems to me he has taken some liberties.
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My husband and I experience it that way too. Its not that we’re deliberately trying to prevent it though. My husband and I actually had a lot of difficulty with Gregory Popcak’s rule about the man climaxes only inside of the woman because it was so difficult for us to acheive. We’ve prayed about it and have read a lot. We’ve tried adjusting our moral understandings. Sometimes we’ll work with one understanding and that new encounter will teach us something. I think the experience of being rejected is a clear distinction. I always feel that the books are written in a manner that work on a lot of presumptions about the problems and difficulties couples may have sexually. Christopher West’s answer on OS is very telling because he specifically tells you to look into your heart and recognize that your only motivation to do such a thing is out of a fear of pregnancy.

Here’s the way I see it. As husband and wife we are supposed to accept each other completely. We have conjugal rights. What we want to avoid is rejecting our spouse’s conjugal rights because to do so is to reject our spouse. This is completely different when you make out for awhile and factors out of your control prevent the act from being completed. And I also don’t think its a healthy approach to sex to go in thinking only about the last step. I am a full believer that you should put your whole heart into every loving touch and be keeping your mind directly in the moment. As such, the attitude should be simply a willingness of “If we get that far, we will be open to it.”

As such, in my opinion, the question is about willfully changing the nature of the act. Typically this is motivated due to a desire to utilize fertility awareness to willfully substitute other acts when NFP mandates you abstain. In such instances, the action is no different than if you merely used a condom during your fertile days.

It may be a challenge, but with NFP, tension will build. You should express love and affection toward each other and you need to be careful about your boundaries on that. Where is your point of no return? Where does abstaining become an act of rejection rather than an act of love? Seeking to climax is sort of a quick solution to breaking that tension, whereas that tension that is built up during that period of abstainence can be seen a bit as a really long time of foreplay and can in fact spice up your marriage a bit.

I don’t think there are any real rules as to where that line is, but there is a general understanding that married couples have more freedom in how they express their loved than non-married individuals. As a friend of mine said, its different because in the end, you can also reflect on it and decide to use a fertile day without sinning. An engaged couple can’t.
 
searching04 said:
Same difference and not charitable.

There is no reason for people who disagree to hush up, just because you don’t like it or more so, because you have not been able yet to convince someone otherwise. How do you know a light may not come on at some point? You don’t.
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Posting one’s opinion on a thread when one’s opinion is contrary to Church teaching is not charitable either, and wastes the OP’s time and the forum’s bandwidth. But there are some subjects that always draw the dissenters. I expected no less.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
This makes me so sad. Your husband cannot climax outside of your body, even if you call it foreplay, without it being a grave sin. How can there be a bigger sin than that?
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Her husband is not climaxing during phase II at all, as I understand it. She sometimes is. That’s why I think it seems more unclear.
 
For the OP.

There is a book that is a bit diffuclt to find because it was written in the 1960’s by Father John C. Ford, SJ.

It is called, “Contemporary Moral Theology, Marriage Questions”

I hope you find it, since it is difficult to find, perhaps a seminary or college library.

And, I would add, perhaps speaking with a priest might help?
 
TheRealJuliane said:
This makes me so sad. Your husband cannot climax outside of your body, even if you call it foreplay, without it being a grave sin. How can there be a bigger sin than that?
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OK, guess we’re going to verbally joust.

So worshipping false gods, murder, rape, stealing, torture, abortion, and whatever are not worse than if the semen may or may not land in the wrong spot? I don’t see that.
 
searching04 said:
OK, guess we’re going to verbally joust.

So worshipping false gods, murder, rape, stealing, torture, abortion, and whatever are not worse than if the semen may or may not land in the wrong spot? I don’t see that.
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No, you can talk to yourself. That is not what I meant, she said that refusing her husband is a bigger sin than sexual sin they engage in. I am not going to respond except to the OP’s question.
 
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