- Status
C
chevalier
Guest
You do have a love of discussion.
You surely have read a lot here…
Don’t I like your style… Okay, I’ll try to be serious.
Certainly he doesn’t believe that achieving heaven is unimportant. Therefore he might likely concentrate more on what it does for each other. But does he not believe that marriage is a sacrament (involves God, not just the two people), requires fidelity and indissolubility, having and bringing up offspring is a part of it?
You certainly wouldn’t go through baptism and other sacraments again, but you could attend classes, I believe.
Did I tell you I liked your style?
Looks like I miserably fail at being serious, but I assure you I’m coherent.I don’t think there’s anything grey to Catholicism except that we’re a church of sinners and while not black, we aren’t very white either. At any rate, Catholicism can be intellectually overwhelming on many days, let alone challenging.
Who knows. After all, one doesn’t need a 160 IQ to be a good Catholic and obedience is a legitimate idea of life.
Perhaps we’d like to hear more.
Too late… I already have, it seems!
Thank you as well for your kind words. I find you very logical and well-collected, which greatly affects your chances of talking something out with someone.
While people are equal and so we should respect their beliefs, as Catholics believe that God’s revelation is true, they can’t believe that it is not very true or that something mutually exclusive with it is true in the part in which it is inconsistent. This basically comes down to “either a or non-a”. One could try the relativist approach with philosophies and ways of life, but it doesn’t work with religion. A pur sang agnostic would believe that all religions are equally undeterminable (supposing none of the ones compared is a clear counterfeit), but a belief that all are equally true cannot hold unless the law of noncontradiction goes out the window. A scale of truth might exist without denying the law of noncontradiction, while providing room for more complex evaluation, but then it would make no sense to presume, without examination and consideration, that all religions are at an exact same point on the scale. This leaves us in a blur, since suspended judgement, the classic agnostic option, does not provide grounds for an assertion of equal truthfulness - which is already judgement.
Contraception is generally the most frequent example of this.
As am I and as are we. A Catholic knows this very well.
That definitely would not be a good thing, would not or should not make anyone happy. In fact, an informed Catholic should oppose the very idea of that.
Such weddings happen and they take place in churches. Your situation would be complicated, since as a Catholic you would actually be receiving a sacrament, although as a person who does not believe you would not be required to make displays of faith.
I am positively amazed by your way of handling this.
None of follow them 100%, but we try to. The fact slips will happen is not enough to make one give up in the beginning, is it?
Since you are by far too logical to teach your children mutually exclusive beliefs, I suppose you are going to teach them about both sets of beliefs. However, what religion will they be? Will they believe in God or will they not? You cannot have them suspend their judgements since that is an option only possible with adults. You cannot really bring them up in two systems and make them pick when they’ve grown up in so far as those two systems could not completely coincide. What are you going to do with this?
So there is God?
I am. In all fairness, I’ve enjoyed it more than any in the last months. I interrupted writing quite a scientific article to take part in it, oh irony, and look what the time is.I’ve learned tons and if you’re enjoying this discussion as much as I am, please respond.
C
chevalier
Guest
Local bishop ordinary is enough.
Dispensation from form is always needed when the form is not to be there, yup.
L
Liberanosamalo
Guest
You know what, ABello, I like you! You’re taking what I say a little too personally. I’m arguing facts, not your character. Actually, I admire you coming back here in spite of the nails and 2x4s and having a very honest and open discussion and you’ve been very respectful. So good for you! 
You have guts, and I like that.
Yes, I sound mean. It’s part of my charm. I’m really not mean, and small children and kittens follow me around. Seriously. It’s just that on matters of the Catholic Faith, when you start to compromise, it’s not Catholicism anymore. And I will put up a vigorous argument against any tendency to do that.
Any anger you see about people who pick and choose is because I was on the receiving end of people deciding for themselves what was right and wrong “as long as nobody else got hurt” but THEY were the ultimate arbiters of who got hurt or not and what even constituted being hurt. So I’m advising that such an attitude can have horrible consequences in the real world. You wouldn’t go for the same attitude by other drivers on the road: “I’ll decide for myself what the speed limit here should be. I’ll drive on whatever side of the road I deem best.” The results would be catastrophic. You may not go around hurting people, and 21 years is not hardly enough time to really do that unless someone is very evil. But many people with that pick and choose attitude cause lots of pain out in the world.
We’ve cleard the meaning of the word “Devout.” I don’t think you intentionally misled us. I appreciate your clarification. Yes, I’m very snarky. Again, it’s part of my charm. But I was using a scientific metaphor there so you could see that in the scientific realm you have to be equally exact. Words are important.
**Save your nails and 2-by-4’s until then. ** Naah. You don’t deserve that. You’re too intellectually honest for that. But sometimes the truth does feel like a 2x4 across the face. Not my intent. Sorry. Friends?
“How old are you??” I’m twice as old as you and it only feels like I’ve lived 3 times as long as you. I did start out equally optimistic. So understand that life DOES have a way of adjusting one’s vision on things. I am of the opinion that things could improve and I could someday revert to seeing everything through sunshine goggles. But where I am right now is not the time and place.
*“Just be aware that when people decide to pick and choose for themselves what morality is and try to live according to that, it is as chaotic, prone to error and messy in the end as when people pick and choose or use words wrongly in a conversation or a messageboard thread.” *
No, you didn’t offend me. I just wanted to let you see that this thread was erroneously predicated on incorrect usage of the meaning of a word. And so the communication was off. And equal problems occur when people operate according to different interpretations of right and wrong in life. Life runs “off” track.
My outlook on all marriage is not all negative. You are seeing negativity in a certain area because of my experiences. You are correct in that assumption. My car landed in a ditch. I’m standing by the roadside waving my arms saying “Proceed with caution. This path is no good.”
If there wasn’t a lot of good in you and your BF, you wouldn’t be having this discussion. Being happy and positive is good. But it has to be built on reality. Or it will crumble.
As for the letting kids decide for themselves on faith and morality… well, you wouldn’t present them with a choice whether they wanted to go to bed or not, would you? Would you let them decide whether they wanted to go to school or not? Before a certain age their minds are not capable of distinguishing the intricacies of varying theologies. That’s too much to ask of a child. The kids left to choose on their own often end up choosing nothing.
And I would be remiss in my clanging the bell of doom if I did not warn you and your BF of something important. Others here have spoken of marriage and becoming parents and the profound change that occurred in their faith during that process. I have seen it in my own life, especially among women, who lived as pagans or nearly so, until they became mothers, and then reverted to the Catholicism of their youth. I have also seen men regress in behavior once they became fathers and husbands. There are NO guarantees in life, except God.
The “rules” you don’t like about the Catholic Church are like the rules you will someday impose on your children. No running with knives, no climbing on the roof… the rules that serve at once to protect them and limit their freedom. It’s all how you look at it.
Please know that you both, ontologically, at the core of your beings, are Catholic. Baptized and made children of God. The grace of that sacrament cannot be undone. It is that powerful. It was made so by the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.
Knowing that, you both are bound by the marriage laws of the Catholic Church. If you choose to forego that, and get married outside of the Church, by a JP or on a beach, or in a garden, wherever, that marriage is considered null by the Catholic Church.
As if it never happened. A marriage inside the Church, with both of you agreeing it is permanent and exclusive and open to children, and with all the other full consent that goes with being sane people with due discretion, would be valid and binding.
That may mean little to you now. But if there are problems down the road, and your husband becomes more devout, YOU would be less protected if he decided to divorce you and remarry. He would have an out clause. A marriage outside the church being null, it would be very simple for him to divorce you and he wouldn’t even need a full annulment. He wouldn’t have been considered married in the Church anyway. He could easily then contract a marriage in the Church without going through the long process I had to go through. The same for you doing that to him.
Marrying inside the Church and going through the pre-Cana counselling and the marriage prep and receiving it as a sacrament is a protection and a source of grace to help you all over those bumps in life. My marriage, being null, was devoid of the sacramental grace that may have helped it along. My children and I have paid a hard price for it being that way. I don’t want that to happen to you and yours.
The Church is a mother, always looking out for Her children. Please do not discard that lightly.
And don’t stop asking questions in life. It’s an admirable part of YOUR charm!
You’re taking what I say a little too personally. I’m arguing facts, not your character. Actually, I admire you coming back here in spite of the nails and 2x4s and having a very honest and open discussion and you’ve been very respectful. So good for you! You have guts, and I like that.Yes, I sound mean. It’s part of my charm.
I’m really not mean, and small children and kittens follow me around. Seriously. It’s just that on matters of the Catholic Faith, when you start to compromise, it’s not Catholicism anymore. And I will put up a vigorous argument against any tendency to do that.Any anger you see about people who pick and choose is because I was on the receiving end of people deciding for themselves what was right and wrong “as long as nobody else got hurt” but THEY were the ultimate arbiters of who got hurt or not and what even constituted being hurt. So I’m advising that such an attitude can have horrible consequences in the real world. You wouldn’t go for the same attitude by other drivers on the road: “I’ll decide for myself what the speed limit here should be. I’ll drive on whatever side of the road I deem best.” The results would be catastrophic. You may not go around hurting people, and 21 years is not hardly enough time to really do that unless someone is very evil. But many people with that pick and choose attitude cause lots of pain out in the world.
We’ve cleard the meaning of the word “Devout.” I don’t think you intentionally misled us. I appreciate your clarification. Yes, I’m very snarky. Again, it’s part of my charm.
But I was using a scientific metaphor there so you could see that in the scientific realm you have to be equally exact. Words are important.**Save your nails and 2-by-4’s until then. ** Naah. You don’t deserve that. You’re too intellectually honest for that. But sometimes the truth does feel like a 2x4 across the face. Not my intent. Sorry. Friends?
“How old are you??” I’m twice as old as you and it only feels like I’ve lived 3 times as long as you. I did start out equally optimistic. So understand that life DOES have a way of adjusting one’s vision on things. I am of the opinion that things could improve and I could someday revert to seeing everything through sunshine goggles. But where I am right now is not the time and place.
*“Just be aware that when people decide to pick and choose for themselves what morality is and try to live according to that, it is as chaotic, prone to error and messy in the end as when people pick and choose or use words wrongly in a conversation or a messageboard thread.” *
No, you didn’t offend me. I just wanted to let you see that this thread was erroneously predicated on incorrect usage of the meaning of a word. And so the communication was off. And equal problems occur when people operate according to different interpretations of right and wrong in life. Life runs “off” track.
My outlook on all marriage is not all negative. You are seeing negativity in a certain area because of my experiences. You are correct in that assumption. My car landed in a ditch. I’m standing by the roadside waving my arms saying “Proceed with caution. This path is no good.”
If there wasn’t a lot of good in you and your BF, you wouldn’t be having this discussion. Being happy and positive is good. But it has to be built on reality. Or it will crumble.
As for the letting kids decide for themselves on faith and morality… well, you wouldn’t present them with a choice whether they wanted to go to bed or not, would you? Would you let them decide whether they wanted to go to school or not? Before a certain age their minds are not capable of distinguishing the intricacies of varying theologies. That’s too much to ask of a child. The kids left to choose on their own often end up choosing nothing.
And I would be remiss in my clanging the bell of doom if I did not warn you and your BF of something important. Others here have spoken of marriage and becoming parents and the profound change that occurred in their faith during that process. I have seen it in my own life, especially among women, who lived as pagans or nearly so, until they became mothers, and then reverted to the Catholicism of their youth. I have also seen men regress in behavior once they became fathers and husbands. There are NO guarantees in life, except God.
The “rules” you don’t like about the Catholic Church are like the rules you will someday impose on your children. No running with knives, no climbing on the roof… the rules that serve at once to protect them and limit their freedom. It’s all how you look at it.
Please know that you both, ontologically, at the core of your beings, are Catholic. Baptized and made children of God. The grace of that sacrament cannot be undone. It is that powerful. It was made so by the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.
Knowing that, you both are bound by the marriage laws of the Catholic Church. If you choose to forego that, and get married outside of the Church, by a JP or on a beach, or in a garden, wherever, that marriage is considered null by the Catholic Church.
As if it never happened. A marriage inside the Church, with both of you agreeing it is permanent and exclusive and open to children, and with all the other full consent that goes with being sane people with due discretion, would be valid and binding.
That may mean little to you now. But if there are problems down the road, and your husband becomes more devout, YOU would be less protected if he decided to divorce you and remarry. He would have an out clause. A marriage outside the church being null, it would be very simple for him to divorce you and he wouldn’t even need a full annulment. He wouldn’t have been considered married in the Church anyway. He could easily then contract a marriage in the Church without going through the long process I had to go through. The same for you doing that to him.
Marrying inside the Church and going through the pre-Cana counselling and the marriage prep and receiving it as a sacrament is a protection and a source of grace to help you all over those bumps in life. My marriage, being null, was devoid of the sacramental grace that may have helped it along. My children and I have paid a hard price for it being that way. I don’t want that to happen to you and yours.
The Church is a mother, always looking out for Her children. Please do not discard that lightly.
And don’t stop asking questions in life. It’s an admirable part of YOUR charm!
K
KCT
Guest
I’m glad that you and your boyfriend are discussing these things now. That shows alot of maturity .
Something I have not seen addressed (I’ve not read all the posts, though) is what might happen down the road if one person changes his or her mind.
I have seen it happen to MANY couples. Once the first child arrives, views on religious upbringing change. The parents realize they have a soul in their care and suddenly they want to have the child baptized, attend Mass etc. Just because you hold certain beliefs now, does not mean they won’t change in time. What will you do if he (or you!) changes his mind and wants to be a devout Catholic and raise children that way?
Please don’t think it could never happen to you. You should be prepared for it.
.Something I have not seen addressed (I’ve not read all the posts, though) is what might happen down the road if one person changes his or her mind.
I have seen it happen to MANY couples. Once the first child arrives, views on religious upbringing change. The parents realize they have a soul in their care and suddenly they want to have the child baptized, attend Mass etc. Just because you hold certain beliefs now, does not mean they won’t change in time. What will you do if he (or you!) changes his mind and wants to be a devout Catholic and raise children that way?
Please don’t think it could never happen to you. You should be prepared for it.
P
PaulinVA
Guest
ABello,
Props for sticking with us. I know it seems harsh at times.
A priest friend of mine says that when a couple comes to him to start marriage preparation, his "switch’ is defaulted to not marry them. He tells them that they have to convince him to marry them. (Yes, really they marry other and he officiates).
As you have read here, Catholics take marriage very seriously. Since it’s for life, we want to make sure that people don’t make mistakes.
So, perhaps you and your boyfriend should consider that. Why SHOULD you get married in the Catholic Church? What compelling reason do a fallen Catholic and a cafeteria Catholic have to get married in the Church?
Props for sticking with us. I know it seems harsh at times.
A priest friend of mine says that when a couple comes to him to start marriage preparation, his "switch’ is defaulted to not marry them. He tells them that they have to convince him to marry them. (Yes, really they marry other and he officiates).
As you have read here, Catholics take marriage very seriously. Since it’s for life, we want to make sure that people don’t make mistakes.
So, perhaps you and your boyfriend should consider that. Why SHOULD you get married in the Catholic Church? What compelling reason do a fallen Catholic and a cafeteria Catholic have to get married in the Church?
J
jmcrae
Guest
Either it is Jesus, or it is nothing at all, and there is no point in receiving it.
If it is Jesus, then it is the most important thing in the world - if it is not, then to receive it is to commit the worst possible kind of idolotry.
But to say that either opinion is “okay” is either to say that insulting Jesus is okay, or that committing heinous idolotry is okay. Either of these positions seems - I think “reckless” comes close to what I am thinking of, here.
M
milady
Guest
In the Sacrament of Marriage, a baptized Christian man exchanges vows with a baptized Christian woman. Before Almighty God, they promise to each other a love that is faithful, permanent, exclusive, self-sacrificing, and life-giving. Through marriage, a couple now enters into a new public state of life both in the eyes of the Church and society; therefore, the celebration of the marriage rightfully ought to be public with the vows exchanged before a priest (or other authorized witness of the Church), the witnesses (usually the Best Man and Maid of Honor), and the faithful gathered for the ceremony (Cf. Catechism, #1663).
As a part of marriage preparation a couple would complete the regular Catholic marriage preparation. The Catholic party would also attest to his intention of not leaving the Catholic Church, and of promising to baptize and to raise the children in the Catholic faith. The non-Catholic party would be informed of these promises, attest to understanding these promises, and in turn promise not to interfere in their fulfillment.
After the preparation and the attainment of these promises, the priest would petition the bishop on behalf of the couple for a “Dispensation from Canonical Form,” meaning permission for the couple to be married outside of the Catholic Church. The Church requires a dispensation because the bishop, as shepherd of the diocese and guardian of souls, must insure that the couple is prepared as best as possible for marriage and is ready to enter into Holy Matrimony. With such permission, the wedding is valid in the eyes of the Catholic Church. (Confer Code of Canon Law, #1124-25).
However, if a Catholic enters marriage outside of the Catholic Church without the necessary dispensation, then the marriage is considered invalid and is not recognized by the Church. Moreover, this action places the person in a state of mortal sin. For instance, if a Catholic marrying either another Catholic or anyone else just decides to be married in some other Church or by a Justice of the Peace, that marriage is invalid. While such a marriage may have legal standing in the eyes of the state, it has no legitimate standing in the eyes of the Church.
Considering your stated situation, I don’t see how any of your compromises would work.
As a part of marriage preparation a couple would complete the regular Catholic marriage preparation. The Catholic party would also attest to his intention of not leaving the Catholic Church, and of promising to baptize and to raise the children in the Catholic faith. The non-Catholic party would be informed of these promises, attest to understanding these promises, and in turn promise not to interfere in their fulfillment.
After the preparation and the attainment of these promises, the priest would petition the bishop on behalf of the couple for a “Dispensation from Canonical Form,” meaning permission for the couple to be married outside of the Catholic Church. The Church requires a dispensation because the bishop, as shepherd of the diocese and guardian of souls, must insure that the couple is prepared as best as possible for marriage and is ready to enter into Holy Matrimony. With such permission, the wedding is valid in the eyes of the Catholic Church. (Confer Code of Canon Law, #1124-25).
However, if a Catholic enters marriage outside of the Catholic Church without the necessary dispensation, then the marriage is considered invalid and is not recognized by the Church. Moreover, this action places the person in a state of mortal sin. For instance, if a Catholic marrying either another Catholic or anyone else just decides to be married in some other Church or by a Justice of the Peace, that marriage is invalid. While such a marriage may have legal standing in the eyes of the state, it has no legitimate standing in the eyes of the Church.
Considering your stated situation, I don’t see how any of your compromises would work.
J
jmcrae
Guest
True.
Under the circumstances, it might make the most sense for both of you to make formal defections from the faith, and have your garden wedding. Since there doesn’t seem to be any intent on either side to have a Catholic marriage, nor to raise any children who result from the marriage in anything resembling the Catholic faith.
A
ABello
Guest
I see some new faces here. Welcome.
To chevalier:
Thank you for your post. You’re quite sweet.
“Since you are by far too logical to teach your children mutually exclusive beliefs, I suppose you are going to teach them about both sets of beliefs. However, what religion will they be? Will they believe in God or will they not? You cannot have them suspend their judgements since that is an option only possible with adults. You cannot really bring them up in two systems and make them pick when they’ve grown up in so far as those two systems could not completely coincide. What are you going to do with this?”
I like this question….but certainly not because I think it’s easy! I think every child should have a certain degree of choice, but it should be tailored to their age and abilities. What I’m saying is that by slowly allowing our children to think for themselves, we’re teaching them to be self-sufficient adults. Please understand that I DON’T mean we should throw them into the Catholicism-Agnostic pool of confusion and see if they can swim. What my boyfriend and I would both like is for our children to be raised with strong morals and values, and to understand the important message that the story of Christ holds. As they age and become more inquisitive, we can answer their questions appropriately. Once they’re older, they can decide if the story of Christ is more metaphorical or literal, or if they’d rather adopt a whole new belief system all together. I find that a lot of people have expressed concern over “confusing” the children. Children will only be confused if you allow their religious upbringing to be confusing. What I hope to get across here is that with careful parenting, I have no doubt that our children will be well-adjusted.
“So there is God?”
God’s there if you believe He is
To Liberanosamalo:
Now look…you’ve gone and made me like you all over again.
I like the cheerier side of your coin, Liberanosamalo! However, I still respect the fact that you have some life experience to share, and it isn’t always pleasant. I think I understand you a lot better now.
“You wouldn’t go for the same attitude by other drivers on the road: “I’ll decide for myself what the speed limit here should be. I’ll drive on whatever side of the road I deem best.”
I understand where you’re coming from. I agree that some rules are absolute musts. However, I also think that it’s OK to customize some things. Which things are OK to change seems to be the subject of disagreement here, but I respect where you’re coming from on this one.
“Yes, I’m very snarky. Again, it’s part of my charm.”
Well I can certainly relate to that!
“I’m twice as old as you and it only feels like I’ve lived 3 times as long as you. I did start out equally optimistic.”
I respect the fact that you’re older and know the ropes a little bit better than I do. I just tend to get a little bit defensive when I feel like I’m being dismissed because of my age, chiefly because there’s really no valid response to that (“Oh Yeah?? Well?? FINE! I’ll come back when I’m older!”).
“My car landed in a ditch. I’m standing by the roadside waving my arms saying “Proceed with caution. This path is no good.””
You’re right here. If anything, I think you have an obligation to warn people. The problem arises when perhaps you’ve had an issue with a dirt road, and start feeling compelled to warn people to get off ALL dirt roads. It may sometimes be good advice, but sometimes not.
“Before a certain age their minds are not capable of distinguishing the intricacies of varying theologies. That’s too much to ask of a child. The kids left to choose on their own often end up choosing nothing.”
I agree that you can’t just throw all of this onto a child and expect them to choose. I believe that you can, however, teach your children what you know is right and good (in the situation of my boyfriend and I, our morals and values) and gently guide them in the direction of religion. What I am NOT in support of is “you are a Catholic child, and you MUST believe in God.” In reality, we’re speaking of a child born of Catholic (or a Catholic) parent(s). Later on in their lives, there will be those certain points when they can start to make these decisions for themselves.
“And don’t stop asking questions in life. It’s an admirable part of YOUR charm!”
Oh stop! My head will swell!
To KCT and others:
There has been a fair amount of concern regarding what happens if he “changes his mind” about how “Catholic” he really is. Apparently many people have seen this. I have not. I come from an Italian community, where everyone is varying degrees of Catholic, and while I’ve seen couples with differences greater than ours, I’ve seen no “crashing and burning.” That’s not to say, of course, that it can’t happen. Here’s my take on the whole matter: yes he may change his mind about religion. But the promises we make to each other TODAY mean a lot to us, and are very important to the future. He may also decide that the whole “sickness and health” isn’t really his thing, or that “poorer” part of for richer or poorer isn’t doing it for him anymore. Whatif, whatif. Yes, these things CAN happen. But when we marry someone, I believe that we have to trust in two things: that the promises we make to one-another REALLY mean something, and that the character that you’re marrying is true. I know my boyfriend, and I know the things he wouldn’t do, and to be honest, if I were to not marry him based on the fact that a lot of people change their minds on faith, I think I’d be the fool. If everyone thought like that, no one would marry. What I hope to get across here is: yes, be cautious (and this is what we’re trying to do by getting as much information as possible) but at the same time you HAVE to be able to trust in your partner.
If you’re in the mood for a cute child’s poem about when cautious worry goes overboard, check out the poem “Whatif” by Shel Silverstein: famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/shel_silverstein/poems/14819
To chevalier:
Thank you for your post. You’re quite sweet.
“Since you are by far too logical to teach your children mutually exclusive beliefs, I suppose you are going to teach them about both sets of beliefs. However, what religion will they be? Will they believe in God or will they not? You cannot have them suspend their judgements since that is an option only possible with adults. You cannot really bring them up in two systems and make them pick when they’ve grown up in so far as those two systems could not completely coincide. What are you going to do with this?”
I like this question….but certainly not because I think it’s easy! I think every child should have a certain degree of choice, but it should be tailored to their age and abilities. What I’m saying is that by slowly allowing our children to think for themselves, we’re teaching them to be self-sufficient adults. Please understand that I DON’T mean we should throw them into the Catholicism-Agnostic pool of confusion and see if they can swim. What my boyfriend and I would both like is for our children to be raised with strong morals and values, and to understand the important message that the story of Christ holds. As they age and become more inquisitive, we can answer their questions appropriately. Once they’re older, they can decide if the story of Christ is more metaphorical or literal, or if they’d rather adopt a whole new belief system all together. I find that a lot of people have expressed concern over “confusing” the children. Children will only be confused if you allow their religious upbringing to be confusing. What I hope to get across here is that with careful parenting, I have no doubt that our children will be well-adjusted.
“So there is God?”
God’s there if you believe He is
To Liberanosamalo:
Now look…you’ve gone and made me like you all over again.
I like the cheerier side of your coin, Liberanosamalo! However, I still respect the fact that you have some life experience to share, and it isn’t always pleasant. I think I understand you a lot better now.“You wouldn’t go for the same attitude by other drivers on the road: “I’ll decide for myself what the speed limit here should be. I’ll drive on whatever side of the road I deem best.”
I understand where you’re coming from. I agree that some rules are absolute musts. However, I also think that it’s OK to customize some things. Which things are OK to change seems to be the subject of disagreement here, but I respect where you’re coming from on this one.
“Yes, I’m very snarky. Again, it’s part of my charm.”
Well I can certainly relate to that!
“I’m twice as old as you and it only feels like I’ve lived 3 times as long as you. I did start out equally optimistic.”
I respect the fact that you’re older and know the ropes a little bit better than I do. I just tend to get a little bit defensive when I feel like I’m being dismissed because of my age, chiefly because there’s really no valid response to that (“Oh Yeah?? Well?? FINE! I’ll come back when I’m older!”).
“My car landed in a ditch. I’m standing by the roadside waving my arms saying “Proceed with caution. This path is no good.””
You’re right here. If anything, I think you have an obligation to warn people. The problem arises when perhaps you’ve had an issue with a dirt road, and start feeling compelled to warn people to get off ALL dirt roads. It may sometimes be good advice, but sometimes not.
“Before a certain age their minds are not capable of distinguishing the intricacies of varying theologies. That’s too much to ask of a child. The kids left to choose on their own often end up choosing nothing.”
I agree that you can’t just throw all of this onto a child and expect them to choose. I believe that you can, however, teach your children what you know is right and good (in the situation of my boyfriend and I, our morals and values) and gently guide them in the direction of religion. What I am NOT in support of is “you are a Catholic child, and you MUST believe in God.” In reality, we’re speaking of a child born of Catholic (or a Catholic) parent(s). Later on in their lives, there will be those certain points when they can start to make these decisions for themselves.
“And don’t stop asking questions in life. It’s an admirable part of YOUR charm!”
Oh stop! My head will swell!
To KCT and others:
There has been a fair amount of concern regarding what happens if he “changes his mind” about how “Catholic” he really is. Apparently many people have seen this. I have not. I come from an Italian community, where everyone is varying degrees of Catholic, and while I’ve seen couples with differences greater than ours, I’ve seen no “crashing and burning.” That’s not to say, of course, that it can’t happen. Here’s my take on the whole matter: yes he may change his mind about religion. But the promises we make to each other TODAY mean a lot to us, and are very important to the future. He may also decide that the whole “sickness and health” isn’t really his thing, or that “poorer” part of for richer or poorer isn’t doing it for him anymore. Whatif, whatif. Yes, these things CAN happen. But when we marry someone, I believe that we have to trust in two things: that the promises we make to one-another REALLY mean something, and that the character that you’re marrying is true. I know my boyfriend, and I know the things he wouldn’t do, and to be honest, if I were to not marry him based on the fact that a lot of people change their minds on faith, I think I’d be the fool. If everyone thought like that, no one would marry. What I hope to get across here is: yes, be cautious (and this is what we’re trying to do by getting as much information as possible) but at the same time you HAVE to be able to trust in your partner.
If you’re in the mood for a cute child’s poem about when cautious worry goes overboard, check out the poem “Whatif” by Shel Silverstein: famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/shel_silverstein/poems/14819
A
ABello
Guest
To jmcrae and PaulinVA:
You two pose interesting questions and comments. My question to you is, how Catholic is “enough”? When does a “cafeteria-Catholic” become not Catholic enough to be married in the Catholic church? And most importantly, who gets to decide? I know religion is very important to my boyfriend. He’s certainly not as “devout” as most of the people on this board, but he enjoys the peace he finds in going to mass, and he believes that the story of Christ is meaningful. Is this sufficient to keep him in the club?
You two pose interesting questions and comments. My question to you is, how Catholic is “enough”? When does a “cafeteria-Catholic” become not Catholic enough to be married in the Catholic church? And most importantly, who gets to decide? I know religion is very important to my boyfriend. He’s certainly not as “devout” as most of the people on this board, but he enjoys the peace he finds in going to mass, and he believes that the story of Christ is meaningful. Is this sufficient to keep him in the club?
J
Just_Lurking
Guest
Here is the reference for my statement, found in a Wikipedia article (see here):Local bishop ordinary is enough.
Can. 87, §1
AAS, v. 77 (1985), p. 771
Diocesan bishop cannot dispense from canonical form for the marriage of two Catholics.
F
Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
**
Honestly, in order to be “in the club”, one must agree to abide by ALL that the Catholic Church teaches/stands for. THAT is what is agreed to every Mass during the profession of faith and the acceptance/receipt of Holy Communion. If your boyfriend is doing those things without accepting them then he could be in serious spiritual trouble.
Take this how you want, but from what I see, your boyfriend sounds like he is religious, but not Catholic. He sounds (only from what you have so far described) like one of many Protestant denominations. Now, I would never want to advise someone to leave the one True Faith but maybe he really should look into formally defecting and becoming some brand of protestant?
It is really eye opening and helpful to many people to go ahead and figure out exactly what they have issues with (in the Church) and WHY they don’t agree. And I mean really investigate. I just don’t see the point of sitting in a sort of religious limbo…Catholic but not…you know?**
J
jmcrae
Guest
He apparently doesn’t believe in the Eucharist, which means he needs to have a heart to heart discussion with his priest the next time he goes to Confession, about whether he is, in fact, a Catholic at all right now (and if not, how he can become reconciled with the Church, if he chooses that he wants to do that), since the Eucharist is the essential core of what it means to be a Catholic.
As to finding the Jesus story meaningful, even Muslims and Buddhists, and quite a few agnostics, too, find it meaningful - it does not make you Catholic, or even nominally Christian, to find meaning in the story.
Like us, even Protestants also believe that it’s a true story - but believing that, because the story true, it follows logically that so are a whole lot of other things (including the Eucharist) - that’s what makes a person to be Catholic.
A
ABello
Guest
I’m going to put off replying to this until I get to talk to him again. The whole meaning behind the Eucharist has always been a little bit confusing for me, and if I’m going to make any more specific comments about what my boyfriend believes, I’d better get it right!
A
ABello
Guest
To Feanaro’s Wife (my fellow canuck):
I’ve finally finished putting something together that I hope will give you some insight into my faith. To you and to everyone else, if there’s anything you’d like to know specifics about, please don’t hesitate to ask. I’m not shy.
…
As I’ve mentioned before, I really dislike the word “agnostic” because I think it means different things to different people. I chose it for simplicity in this forum, because I felt it was my best option. My “faith” involves a series of morals, values, rules, mantras, and hallmark-type sentiments, so to speak. Many of these are borrowed from Christianity. I’ll try and give you the Coles Notes version, highlighting the important stuff, but I’m guaranteed to accidently omit some things. It’s kind of like me saying to you: “Quick, tell me absolutely everything about yourself!” There are bound to be some parts that get left out. Here it all is, in no particular order:
How I try to live my life:
-I believe you should treat others as you’d like to be treated. This goes along with all the rest that govern social interactions, like don’t kill and don’t fornicate with livestock.
-Trust in the people that really matter to you in your life. Be cautious, but not paranoid.
-Be yourself, be true to yourself, and don’t be embarrassed of what you are. Don’t lie about your “you-ness”, and don’t try to cover it up. This one describes a lot of why I don’t feel it would be honest for me to be married in a Catholic church. I feel that it’s a lie, but as I’ve mentioned in a previous post (in response to chevalier) if I can get married in a Catholic church without it being a lie, I think I’d be comfortable with that.
-Stand up for your convictions; never give them up because then you’re just giving yourself up (see above). BUT…when you’re wrong, be the first to admit it. Don’t be stubborn (this is the one I struggle with most!)
-Whenever you can, be flexible and patient. Listen. Soak in as much knowledge as you can bear.
-Question everything. Think for yourself and don’t accept something as truth just because someone told you it was true. This is the one that makes me not very well suited to organized religion. I envy the sense of community that goes along with being in an organized religion, but I’m not willing to accept “the whole package.” Maybe one day I’ll find a group of people with similar-enough beliefs to be able to call them my religious family. I can almost guarantee, however, that this group will NOT be the Roman Catholic Church. I have issues with some of the practical aspects of the church that are independent of beliefs. The “politics” of it all, so to speak. Before you jump all over this topic, save it. It’s best suited for a different thread which I’ll create in due time, or you can spark up yourself.
Hopefully, most of you recognize a lot of these things, because they’re likely not so different from how you live your life.
How I feel about God:
I don’t know if God exists. If He does exist, I don’t know what capacity he exists in. This doesn’t mean that I don’t think about it, and ask questions. I love thinking about God, the universe, and all the great stuff in and around it. Lately, I’ve also become interested in what other religions think about God. Good thing I found you guys!
**About my “rules.” **
As you have asked: “…what stops them from changing when your mind does (if anything).”
Excellent question. Yes, my “religion” (if you prefer not to even call it that, that’s ok) allows a certain amount of flexibility. To quote Liberanosamalo (his/her slightly fiery side…not the side that cuddles with kittens):
“You are a “do-it-yourself religion.” You are your own Pope, your own God, your own church. You decide for yourself what is right and wrong. And that has morphed and changed over the years. It follows your feelings and your experiences and is not built upon the same solid Rock, as say, the Catholic Church is built upon.”
In a lot of ways, this is correct. I am my own Pope, God and Church. But this doesn’t mean that I just carelessly pick up rules and throw them out as needed. If I tell a lie tomorrow, I don’t dispose of my “no lying” rule beforehand and pick it back up when I’m done lying. I have a conscience, and it doesn’t allow me to do that. I am, however, open to changing my rules as I grow in experiences and knowledge. Think of my rules like state laws. They were made for a reason. Over time, things change. Maybe a new situation comes along that requires that a new precedent be set. Some laws become obsolete, and so we get rid of them. This isn’t done lightly. I don’t change my rules lightly.
Where will I go when I die?
I don’t know. Hopefully on a new journey.
Lastly, here’s a poem that’s very important to me. Maybe some of you have read it. If you haven’t, take a look if you have a chance:
desiderata.com/
I’ve finally finished putting something together that I hope will give you some insight into my faith. To you and to everyone else, if there’s anything you’d like to know specifics about, please don’t hesitate to ask. I’m not shy.
…
As I’ve mentioned before, I really dislike the word “agnostic” because I think it means different things to different people. I chose it for simplicity in this forum, because I felt it was my best option. My “faith” involves a series of morals, values, rules, mantras, and hallmark-type sentiments, so to speak. Many of these are borrowed from Christianity. I’ll try and give you the Coles Notes version, highlighting the important stuff, but I’m guaranteed to accidently omit some things. It’s kind of like me saying to you: “Quick, tell me absolutely everything about yourself!” There are bound to be some parts that get left out. Here it all is, in no particular order:
How I try to live my life:
-I believe you should treat others as you’d like to be treated. This goes along with all the rest that govern social interactions, like don’t kill and don’t fornicate with livestock.
-Trust in the people that really matter to you in your life. Be cautious, but not paranoid.
-Be yourself, be true to yourself, and don’t be embarrassed of what you are. Don’t lie about your “you-ness”, and don’t try to cover it up. This one describes a lot of why I don’t feel it would be honest for me to be married in a Catholic church. I feel that it’s a lie, but as I’ve mentioned in a previous post (in response to chevalier) if I can get married in a Catholic church without it being a lie, I think I’d be comfortable with that.
-Stand up for your convictions; never give them up because then you’re just giving yourself up (see above). BUT…when you’re wrong, be the first to admit it. Don’t be stubborn (this is the one I struggle with most!)
-Whenever you can, be flexible and patient. Listen. Soak in as much knowledge as you can bear.
-Question everything. Think for yourself and don’t accept something as truth just because someone told you it was true. This is the one that makes me not very well suited to organized religion. I envy the sense of community that goes along with being in an organized religion, but I’m not willing to accept “the whole package.” Maybe one day I’ll find a group of people with similar-enough beliefs to be able to call them my religious family. I can almost guarantee, however, that this group will NOT be the Roman Catholic Church. I have issues with some of the practical aspects of the church that are independent of beliefs. The “politics” of it all, so to speak. Before you jump all over this topic, save it. It’s best suited for a different thread which I’ll create in due time, or you can spark up yourself.
Hopefully, most of you recognize a lot of these things, because they’re likely not so different from how you live your life.
How I feel about God:
I don’t know if God exists. If He does exist, I don’t know what capacity he exists in. This doesn’t mean that I don’t think about it, and ask questions. I love thinking about God, the universe, and all the great stuff in and around it. Lately, I’ve also become interested in what other religions think about God. Good thing I found you guys!
**About my “rules.” **
As you have asked: “…what stops them from changing when your mind does (if anything).”
Excellent question. Yes, my “religion” (if you prefer not to even call it that, that’s ok) allows a certain amount of flexibility. To quote Liberanosamalo (his/her slightly fiery side…not the side that cuddles with kittens):
“You are a “do-it-yourself religion.” You are your own Pope, your own God, your own church. You decide for yourself what is right and wrong. And that has morphed and changed over the years. It follows your feelings and your experiences and is not built upon the same solid Rock, as say, the Catholic Church is built upon.”
In a lot of ways, this is correct. I am my own Pope, God and Church. But this doesn’t mean that I just carelessly pick up rules and throw them out as needed. If I tell a lie tomorrow, I don’t dispose of my “no lying” rule beforehand and pick it back up when I’m done lying. I have a conscience, and it doesn’t allow me to do that. I am, however, open to changing my rules as I grow in experiences and knowledge. Think of my rules like state laws. They were made for a reason. Over time, things change. Maybe a new situation comes along that requires that a new precedent be set. Some laws become obsolete, and so we get rid of them. This isn’t done lightly. I don’t change my rules lightly.
Where will I go when I die?
I don’t know. Hopefully on a new journey.
Lastly, here’s a poem that’s very important to me. Maybe some of you have read it. If you haven’t, take a look if you have a chance:
desiderata.com/
B
BLUEMOON74
Guest
I could be wrong but you have to have a valid marriage license from the state that you are getting married in before you can get married in any church. It is all usually done around the same time. To be married in a Cath Ch. you have to show birth certificate/state marriage license, proof of christening, first communion, and confirmation in that order, which you both have. This has to be produced atleast a few months in advance and you must be together atleast 6 months engaged. St. Louis Cathedral in New Orleans requires your parish priest to sign a document of approval before you can be married, kind of like a reference for your resume. I would probably do it like that first and then have an outside reception in the style that you want. I am taking for granted that you two are in unison on your ideas on this so far.
B
BLUEMOON74
Guest
Let me tell you this. You dont have to be die-hard Catholic if you are uncomfortable with it, but you really should believe in God. Everybody needs a higher power, or somewhere along the line you will get into a situation when your faith is all you have(believe it or not–it happens) and you could get depressed later in life. Better to believe in something that is not real and then you say owell and drift off to fairy land, than have your arse in a pail of hot water bc you neglected to give the Man upstairs the respect He deserves. Always make room for God in your heart and spirit even if you question. You will be better off for it. You’ll see one day.
A
ABello
Guest
Hi Bluemoon74. Welcome to the discussion:
“Better to believe in something that is not real”
This didn’t quite sit right with me. I’m not certain that I understand you properly, so please correct me if I’m wrong. It seems a little like you’re advocating bet hedging your salvation. By this logic, I should pick up every organized religion and add it to my roster. One of them’s bound to be the one! This way, I’ll guarantee salvation, and it doesn’t matter that they can’t all be 100% right. Am I following correctly?
Anyone else? Thoughts?
“Better to believe in something that is not real”
This didn’t quite sit right with me. I’m not certain that I understand you properly, so please correct me if I’m wrong. It seems a little like you’re advocating bet hedging your salvation. By this logic, I should pick up every organized religion and add it to my roster. One of them’s bound to be the one! This way, I’ll guarantee salvation, and it doesn’t matter that they can’t all be 100% right. Am I following correctly?
Anyone else? Thoughts?
F
Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
No wonder we understand each other… where in Canada are you (if you want to tell me, lol)?
I don’t have any specific responses right now… actually I am a little blown away by how nearly identical your “list” is to how I lived my own life before my conversion! Right down to the
I can almost guarantee, however, that this group will NOT be the Roman Catholic Church
**LOL… I said the exact same thing. I grew up going to Catholic schools and my experiences with my fellow Catholics left a bitter taste in my mouth. Then there is how the Church is portrayed in mainstream media (especially here in Canada
). There was a lot I thought I understood about the faith that I later found out I was really wrong about.Once I started investigating what the faith is really all about (my hubby is Catholic and I just wanted to learn about what he believed and why…I never had any intention of converting!) I was overcome by the truthfullness and sheer logic of it. No matter what I had an issue with I could find a very clear answer if I knew where to look. These forums were very helpful as well
I didn’t choose Catholicism to make my life/marriage easier. I didn’t choose it to please my extended family. I didn’t choose it to gain a sense of belonging. I prayed sincerely that the Holy Spirit open my heart and mind to whatever the truth was (even though at that point I wasn’t sure there even was a Holy Spirit:shrug
. Then things just started to make sense. Information basically fell into my lap. I could no longer ignore the calling.If I have any advise for you it is to not rush into marriage. I know that at 21 we all think we know exactly who we are, what we stand for, and where we are going in life. Well, from my own experiences and from watching those around me (as well as the posters here at CAF) I can tell you that for the majority of people that is just not true. You will be a different person at 25, 30, and 40…than you are now. Your core, who you are inside, will remain, but your life views and approaches could differ dramatically.
Becoming Catholic has only added to my “me-ness”. It has allowed me to grow and become better, but I am essentially still the same. I have not had to compromise myself or feel like I’ve given anything up. It is truly the most wonderful gift I have ever received. And it really is a gift. So many people have studied the faith as I have but not been moved. I feel that by being open to it I was given the gift of faith which is now my job to nurture and not let die.
CAF was one of my first steps…maybe it is yours too?
**
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