Marriage Dilema

[catharina]

That is what you said originally and what you are saying now. But let’s be honest here, the bulk of your prior posts were about disagreeing with FF’s position regarding the need for extra-coital stimulation for many women to achieve orgasm.

Holding to an assumption that this wife (or many wives) have extraordinary needs in the bedroom is a false start. To suggest that the OPoster might be failing in the love-making department is degrading and insulting to him and (IMO) incredibly stupid. All we know is that the woman refuses intercourse. Do you think that’s normal??? No way.

 

[flyingfish]

I am unwilling to step into the bedroom around your guess.
My guess is that it’s likely she’s avoiding the poissiblity of conception.
Both guesses are irrelevant.

Since she is obviously not following Catholic teaching, nothing would prevent her from going on the pill if she isn’t already on it. And the OP would be permitted to have sex with her even if she was on the pill. So his conflict could be resolved if the wife let him penetrate her for the 10 seconds it takes him to ejaculate.

Obviously she would not be following Catholic teaching, but since she seems to show no interest in doing this, I don’t see what you can do about that.

(For that matter, they could use NFP as well if the OP can convince her of its effectiveness. sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070221065200.htm a good start)

 

[catharina]

Since she is obviously not following Catholic teaching, nothing would prevent her from going on the pill if she isn’t already on it. And the OP would be permitted to have sex with her even if she was on the pill. So his conflict could be resolved if the wife let him penetrate her for the 10 seconds it takes him to ejaculate.

Obviously she would not be following Catholic teaching, but since she seems to show no interest in doing this, I don’t see what you can do about that.

(For that matter, they could use NFP as well if the OP can convince her of its effectiveness. sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070221065200.htm a good start)

You see this situation one way. I see it another way.

In many circumstances, a focus on sexual issues block a true focus on other
problems within a marriage, problems that have little to do with the physical.

 

[momor]

Holding to an assumption that this wife (or many wives) have extraordinary needs in the bedroom is a false start. To suggest that the OPoster might be failing in the love-making department is degrading and insulting to him and (IMO) incredibly stupid. All we know is that the woman refuses intercourse. Do you think that’s normal??? No way].

Obviously I don’t since I asked the OP if he knew the reason why she preferred MM to intercourse and stated that I thought the reason might present the solution to his problem.

But since stimulation through MM does not seem to be a problem it begs the question why it is not part of foreplay to intercourse instead of the primary sexual activity in their relationship. I thought FF was simply pointing out correctly that for many, perhaps even a majority, of women orgasm is not obtained through intercourse alone and perhaps that’s why the OP’s wife wasn’t interested in it.

Then you and Kage_ar imply that can’t be correct because of where the clitoris is located. Then when the discussion continued on this topic, instead of acknowledging that what may be true for you is not true for every woman, I felt you changed the subject. No offense but it just bugs me when I see people do that and I tend to point it out.

 

[catharina]

Obviously I don’t since I asked the OP if he knew the reason why she preferred MM to intercourse and stated that I thought the reason might present the solution to his problem.

But since stimulation through MM does not seem to be a problem it begs the question why it is not part of foreplay to intercourse instead of the primary sexual activity in their relationship. I thought FF was simply pointing out correctly that for many, perhaps even a majority, of women orgasm is not obtained through intercourse alone and perhaps that’s why the OP’s wife wasn’t interested in it.

Then you and Kage_ar imply that can’t be correct because of where the clitoris is located. Then when the discussion continued on this topic, instead of acknowledging that what may be true for you is not true for every woman, I felt you changed the subject. No offense but it just bugs me when I see people do that and I tend to point it out.

I see that - but it bugs me (maybe more) when folks attempt to disentangle an issue central to another’s marriage without a clue as to what MIGHT be most central; the relationship, the communication, the love, the dedication, the openness. To imply that the husband is FAILING his wife (and that is the implication when one offers lessons in sexual satisfaction when such a need hasn’t even been hinted) is, IMO, incredibly insulting to the husband (and distasteful to all who read such goofiness). I think you and FF have attempted to present an generalization which might or might not have any relevance to the husband. If you wish to offer your instructions to him regard info he MIGHT need re male-female intimacy, you might want to move that to pvt msgs. He has not indicated he needs such advice.

 

[presidentjlh]

As much as I look forward to my marriage (whenever in the distant future that may be), sometimes I’m just like, “Jeez, it just gets more difficult to discern good and evil when it comes to marital relations. Why am I supposed to be looking forward to more contemplation on stuff I that I already analyze way too much?”

From what I’ve gathered from my search for knowledge, I guess that’s the way life is: It’s difficult to begin with, and then it just gradually gets more difficult and less enjoyable as time goes on.

 

[catharina]

As much as I look forward to my marriage (whenever in the distant future that may be), sometimes I’m just like, “Jeez, it just gets more difficult to discern good and evil when it comes to marital relations. Why am I supposed to be looking forward to more contemplation on stuff I that I already analyze way too much?”

From what I’ve gathered from my search for knowledge, I guess that’s the way life is: It’s difficult to begin with, and then it just gradually gets more difficult and less enjoyable as time goes on.

Not for everyone. Really. Many things become crystal-clear as time moves on.
Far less fretting, definitely more peace.

 

[presidentjlh]

Not for everyone. Really. Many things become crystal-clear as time moves on.
Far less fretting, definitely more peace.

I hope so. All I know is that, where I’m at now in my life, the difficulty is increasing.

 

[catharina]

I hope so. All I know is that, where I’m at now in my life, the difficulty is increasing.

You’re 18 yrs old. That’s normal.
When my son was 18, he could have said the same.
Now he’s 35 yrs old and he barely remembers those tough ‘old days.’

 

[flyingfish]

I see that - but it bugs me (maybe more) when folks attempt to disentangle an issue central to another’s marriage without a clue as to what MIGHT be most central; the relationship, the communication, the love, the dedication, the openness. To imply that the husband is FAILING his wife (and that is the implication when one offers lessons in sexual satisfaction when such a need hasn’t even been hinted) is, IMO, incredibly insulting to the husband (and distasteful to all who read such goofiness). I think you and FF have attempted to present an generalization which might or might not have any relevance to the husband. If you wish to offer your instructions to him regard info he MIGHT need re male-female intimacy, you might want to move that to pvt msgs. He has not indicated he needs such advice.

The main point of my advice was to give the OP the absolute minimum changes he can make to what his wife currently enjoys so that it becomes consistent with Catholic teaching.

 

[kage_ar]

I hope so. All I know is that, where I’m at now in my life, the difficulty is increasing.

It is easy.

Sex only in a valid marriage.

Only what makes you both comfortable (and if you marry your best friend, you can talk about these things so you KNOW what is comfortable).

No porn, no other people in the bedroom.

No contraception.

No intention to ejaculate outside the vagina.

God gave you five fingers to remember those 5 things

 

[kage_ar]

Then you and Kage_ar imply that can’t be correct because of where the clitoris is located. Then when the discussion continued on this topic, instead of acknowledging that what may be true for you is not true for every woman, I felt you changed the subject. No offense but it just bugs me when I see people do that and I tend to point it out.

I was responding to a poster who is not and has never been married. Someone who is and has been married knows more about marital sex than a young girl who has not, heck, she may be basing what she knows on what she has read in Cosmo.

 

[momor]

I was responding to a poster who is not and has never been married. Someone who is and has been married knows more about marital sex than a young girl who has not, heck, she may be basing what she knows on what she has read in Cosmo.

Oh! This is too funny. For some reason I pictured flyingfish as a married man
Just goes to show how easy it is to get the wrong impressions from posts. Doesn’t change anything I said though.

 

[catharina]

Oh! This is too funny. For some reason I pictured flyingfish as a married man
Just goes to show how easy it is to get the wrong impressions from posts. Doesn’t change anything I said though.

New info at hand.
No change in your thinking.

Hmmmmmmmmmm… .
Very interesting.

 

[momor]

New info at hand.
No change in your thinking.

Hmmmmmmmmmm… .
Very interesting.

My thinking comes from my 30 years of experience in nursing and reading professional journals. I see no reason to change it.

 

[anns82]

Intercourse itself is generally not fulfilling for women, Very few can achieve climax due to intercourse alone, and some can even experience pain due to intercourse.

Not true. Yes, there is pain the first couple of times (I would say 5 to 8), but unless there is a physical problem (which is the case for some people), I think that is bad statement to generalize with. A large part of the problem is our society tells us it is only the physical aspect, but when focusing on the spiritual/true aspect, the meaning of the act in itself changes the question of whether or not it is enjoyed. The experience may be different between the man and the woman, but focusing on the meaning of the marital act makes a big difference.

Another thing that may help, though not necessarily with the immediate problem, is if you both practice NFP. It solves the birth control issue, while also reassuring the wife if she does not have very much of a sex drive, that the Catholic faith does not demand she become a sex slave to her husband, but rather they love and respect each other in their body and their soul.

 

[catharina]

My thinking comes from my 30 years of experience in nursing and reading professional journals. I see no reason to change it.

My thinking comes from 40+ years in social services and I hold to my opinion
that the OPoster made no request for advice re his sexual marital relationship.

Rather he states: “I don’t know how to tell her that I do not wish to carry on with the mutual masturbation. I fear it might mean the end of the marriage, as so far she has shown little tolerance to my faith, seeing it primarily as an inconvenience. I love my wife and do not wish to cause any problems in our relationship, and I am also thinking that causing the breakup of my marriage would be a graver sin than carrying on with the status quo. Could someone please offer me some advise as I feel that I am stuck between two evils?”

My advice is resolve the issues in the relationship. If his wife does not
respect (or even tolerate) his faith, then that is the primary issue. All else is secondary.

 

[momor]

My thinking comes from 40+ years in social services and I hold to my opinion
that the OPoster made no request for advice re his sexual marital relationship.

Rather he states: “I don’t know how to tell her that I do not wish to carry on with the mutual masturbation. I fear it might mean the end of the marriage, as so far she has shown little tolerance to my faith, seeing it primarily as an inconvenience. I love my wife and do not wish to cause any problems in our relationship, and I am also thinking that causing the breakup of my marriage would be a graver sin than carrying on with the status quo. Could someone please offer me some advise as I feel that I am stuck between two evils?”

My advice is resolve the issues in the relationship. If his wife does not
respect (or even tolerate) his faith, then that is the primary issue. All else is secondary.

Well here we go, apparently misunderstanding each other again. My experience is related to my position (and that of FF, regardless of where she got her opinion/facts) that many, and perhaps a majority, of women do not achieve orgasm by intercourse alone. The same position that you and kage_ar have taken issue with.

Now catharina, you may have the last word…

 

[catharina]

Well here we go, apparently misunderstanding each other again. My experience is related to my position (and that of FF, regardless of where she got her opinion/facts) that many, and perhaps a majority, of women do not achieve orgasm by intercourse alone. The same position that you and kage_ar have taken issue with.

Now catharina, you may have the last word…

Nope, I insist. Last word is yours.
Source for the bolded implications, please.

 

[Seatuck]

Then why are Apologists on this forum saying that it’s not a sin to have sex with a contracepting spouse? Just search the Ask an Apologist forum. It would be a sin for him to contracept, but if his wife contracepts and he has sex with her it’s not his sin.

It’s still a very sorrowful , troubling and disheartening event for a Catholic when they continue marital relations with a contracepting spouse. You make it sound way too lighthearted and “no big dealish”. Being a sin and being an unhappy event are miles apart.It is still a big deal. It is is a troubling thing when you know your spouse is sinning and putting space between themselves and God. It is disheartening when you know your spouse is cutting of the grace of God from your marriage. Yes it may be tolerated but that is hardly the way you discuss the matter in these threads.