Marriage/Divorce/Annulments

[bobcrawford]

A female member of our family was recently divorced. Her husband was found to be cheating with several women almost from the beginning of their marriage. She gave him three months to seek help, talk to their parish priest, and make a choice. After three months of him doing nothing, she went to the attorney to start the divorce process.

She wants to get an annulment but considers it more abuse. She said the annulment process as discussed with the priest and deacon just heaps on more hurt. She said she was the victim, but does not feel the church treats her that way.

Several issues here. First, her former spouse is probably a sociopath. If you read about sociopaths, because they are expert liars, they can hide it their entire lives. But there is no way to prove he is such because he refuses to get help.

Since she has to give testimony, anything that embarrasses him enrages him. Even though they are not married, he can still abuse her verbally and make her life a living Hell. This can happen because he can read her testimony.

Being a liar he knows how much the Church is important to her and her family. He was a converted Catholic and probably did so only for the marriage. He doesn’t care what the Church thinks so he could lie in his testimony to hurt her even more.

It seems to me the Church’s annulment process was developed around rational adults. It does not consider that one of the adults could be mentally ill, vindictive or could bring other harm from them reading the testimony of the other adult.

While I agree that marriage is for life, the Church’s law on making two people stay religiously married when one abuses the other, or consistent cheats on the other, just forces the innocent spouse to pay for the sins of the other spouse. It’s not wonder so many women today feel alienated from the Church and feel the Church is just another “good ol’ boys club” and not something open, loving and understanding of their plight.

I would think that the Church should realize that a spouse who endlessly cheated on the other spouse was never fully committed to the marriage before the marriage took place and therefore the marriage was invalid. I am not talking about a single mistake kind of adultery, but talking about consistent, on-going cheating. Why put women, through all the agony? It’s just more abuse.

I often think that some day a woman will seek an annulment. The ex-husand will read the testimony and become enraged, then seek out and murder the spouse because of the written testimony. Just a matter of time.

Would be nice if the Church reformed it methods in some areas that bring more hurt, humiliation and abuse.

JMHO

 

[Galnextdoor]

The truth can often be painful. The testimony consists of an explanation in writing as to why the person filing for an annulment feels that the marriage was never valid. It wouldn’t be fair to hear just one person’s side of the story, so the spouse has the right to respond to it. Other people are asked to write about the events surrounding the person and the marriage at the time of the marriage and as to the character of both parties. The Church does not give out the address of the person filing the annulment, so the only way a spouse could show up and murder someone would be if they already had knowledge of the address. (In which case, if the spouse was so unstable, the actual divorce would be a more likely trigger for the ramifications you describe. The annulment is more anti-climatic.)
If the spouse would be likely to lie just so that the Catholic could not receive an annulment and you have first hand knowledge of this, than you should be a witness, which would amount to you filling out a form saying so.
I knew a man who married a girl who was pregnant with his child. She eventually left him, and protested an annulment because she knew he was dedicated to the Eucharist and did not want him to be able to remarry. She told several people this. (She remarried in the protestant church.) One of the people she told became a witness for the man when he tried for an annulment again, and he was granted an annulment.
I think that the annulment is cathartic and the first step toward emotional and spiritual healing.
It has been my experience that the Church tries to be sensitive and just to both parties in the annulment process.

 

[The_Wizard]

Here is one piece of advice I don’t see given here when the annulment process is brought up. Seek out a Canon Law attorney. Speaking from personal experience they make the process a lot more bearable than if you go it alone.

I find it interesting that people have no problem paying civil attorney for a civil divorce but refuse to pay an attorney to help with an annulment which may have a effect on their eternal life.

 

[Tomdstone]

Even though they are not married, …

How would this be true if they did not get an annulment?

 

[MaryT777]

Here is one piece of advice I don’t see given here when the annulment process is brought up. Seek out a Canon Law attorney. Speaking from personal experience they make the process a lot more bearable than if you go it alone.

I find it interesting that people have no problem paying civil attorney for a civil divorce but refuse to pay an attorney to help with an annulment which may have a effect on their eternal life.

This is the best advice in awhile. I had a Canon Law attorney specifically. You can be dissuaded initially by a priest in the parish especially if you were as I was clueless as to what a valid marriage really was. It’s not of course “who said and did what” during the course of the marriage per se it’s what was the status at the time the vows were said. The behavior later of course can validate what was “missing” in the beginning.

I am forever grateful for his help. Every Catholic has a right to pursue a decree of nullity.

Mary.

 

[bobcrawford]

Easy, there are 300+ emails between him and his girlfriend that the husband of the girlfriend turned over to her.

How do you give “fair say” to someone who may be mentally ill? I am referring more to the situation where you have overwhelming evidence and once caught has admitted the on-going affairs.

When someone fears for their safety, or on-going mental abuse, you cannot rely on the courts. With due respect, that is very naive. Anyone who stays current with news knows the courts and police cannot protect you. Moreover, even if not a fear of physical abuse, the mental abuse cannot be prevented by the courts.

I realize women are not always the victims. But more times than not, they are. In pretty much all cases of abuse, the man is the aggressor.

 

[bobcrawford]

The truth can often be painful. The testimony consists of an explanation in writing as to why the person filing for an annulment feels that the marriage was never valid. It wouldn’t be fair to hear just one person’s side of the story, so the spouse has the right to respond to it. Other people are asked to write about the events surrounding the person and the marriage at the time of the marriage and as to the character of both parties. The Church does not give out the address of the person filing the annulment, so the only way a spouse could show up and murder someone would be if they already had knowledge of the address. (In which case, if the spouse was so unstable, the actual divorce would be a more likely trigger for the ramifications you describe. The annulment is more anti-climatic.)
If the spouse would be likely to lie just so that the Catholic could not receive an annulment and you have first hand knowledge of this, than you should be a witness, which would amount to you filling out a form saying so.
I knew a man who married a girl who was pregnant with his child. She eventually left him, and protested an annulment because she knew he was dedicated to the Eucharist and did not want him to be able to remarry. She told several people this. (She remarried in the protestant church.) One of the people she told became a witness for the man when he tried for an annulment again, and he was granted an annulment.
I think that the annulment is cathartic and the first step toward emotional and spiritual healing.
It has been my experience that the Church tries to be sensitive and just to both parties in the annulment process.

In a somewhat rational world, what you noted is very valid. Today’s world is anything but.

 

[bobcrawford]

This is the best advice in awhile. I had a Canon Law attorney specifically. You can be dissuaded initially by a priest in the parish especially if you were as I was clueless as to what a valid marriage really was. It’s not of course “who said and did what” during the course of the marriage per se it’s what was the status at the time the vows were said. The behavior later of course can validate what was “missing” in the beginning.

I am forever grateful for his help. Every Catholic has a right to pursue a decree of nullity.

Mary.

Mary, I understand and agree. I have been told so many times that what happened after the vows has no bearing on the situation. I believe that a spouse who was cheating within six months of marriage was never committed to begin with and therefore not a valid marriage.

Yes, she does have a right, but sorry, I still think the process is very flawed and leaves the vulnerable person, the injured spouse even more hurt and abused because of the process.

 

[MaryT777]

In a somewhat rational world, what you noted is very valid. Today’s world is anything but.

Quite frankly, I found the whole process extremely draining, and exhausting and expensive. I simply did it because I trust in the Church. My Canon attorney told me up front although he thought mine would be granted of course there are no guarantees.

The process itself with first and second instance courts, nothing of which is “infallible” of course and one court can disagree with the other did nothing to personally instill confidence in the process.

The process is definitely man made but it’s apparently currently the best solution we have to the words of Jesus. My Lutheran Pastor friend told me most every Catholic he converted to Lutheransim did so because they wanted no part of this process.
People ARE leaving the Church for this reason and perhaps we could find a more streamlined easier process with more pastoral care as well.
It would be nice.

Mary.

 

[MaryT777]

Mary, I understand and agree. I have been told so many times that what happened after the vows has no bearing on the situation. I believe that a spouse who was cheating within six months of marriage was never committed to begin with and therefore not a valid marriage.

Yes, she does have a right, but sorry, I still think the process is very flawed and leaves the vulnerable person, the injured spouse even more hurt and abused because of the process.

Yes, my spouse lied like a “rug” during the process but because I was given full, uncontested custody of my children his lies fell on deaf ears in the Tribunal.

He hated the Catholic Church and told me in very crude terms he could give a rat’s BLEEP less what a bunch of child molesters did or said.

His testimony was ugly enough he probably looked half nuts to the tribunal I think in my opinion.

I completely agree the process is flawed and the hurt spouse pays the price if you have a vindictive spouse that knows how much this means to you.

There has got to be a better way.

Mary.

 

[GratefulFred]

Any reasonable estimate of the amount of time the Church spends in determining that each spouse is emotionally mature enough to marry as compared to the time the Church spends to determine if they qualify for an annulment?

Given the near 50% divorce rate in America and ALL the damage done from getting into a marriage that perhaps never should have occurred, it seems it is better to spend time and effort to pre-qualify rather than so much time and anguish to say it never was a marriage in the first place.

 

[GratefulFred]

There has got to be a better way.

Pope Francis is taking action. He has the **Synod on the Family **working the issues of how the Church can stay true to Catholic teaching while ministering to those caught up in situations that cause so many to leave the Church.

The Synod on the Family met in October 2014 and will again in October 2015. Pope Francis also declared a **Special Jubilee Year of Mercy **that will begin on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception - Dec 8, 2015 and end at the end of the Church year in November 2016.

 

[bobcrawford]

Quite frankly, I found the whole process extremely draining, and exhausting and expensive. I simply did it because I trust in the Church. My Canon attorney told me up front although he thought mine would be granted of course there are no guarantees.

The process itself with first and second instance courts, nothing of which is “infallible” of course and one court can disagree with the other did nothing to personally instill confidence in the process.

The process is definitely man made but it’s apparently currently the best solution we have to the words of Jesus. My Lutheran Pastor friend told me most every Catholic he converted to Lutheransim did so because they wanted no part of this process.
People ARE leaving the Church for this reason and perhaps we could find a more streamlined easier process with more pastoral care as well.
It would be nice.

Mary.

Thanks for a compassionate and rational opinion of the subject. The entire divorce put this woman into the hospital emergency room several times a month over the 12+ month process. I would just hate to see the Church take the same toll on her. Not only was it physically draining to have to go to the hospital, the financial impact was also horrific with the medical bills. Insurance does not like emergency room visits but there was no other choice.

 

[bobcrawford]

Any reasonable estimate of the amount of time the Church spends in determining that each spouse is emotionally mature enough to marry as compared to the time the Church spends to determine if they qualify for an annulment?

Given the near 50% divorce rate in America and ALL the damage done from getting into a marriage that perhaps never should have occurred, it seems it is better to spend time and effort to pre-qualify rather than so much time and anguish to say it never was a marriage in the first place.

I just don’t know if the Church has the ability to determine who and who should not marry. With a 50% divorce rate, the methods of the Church are not working.

In the specific woman’s marriage I am speaking of, how do you uncover a Sociopath? From what I have read, even trained professionals are usually fooled because their ability to lie and hide the truth is so good. Some go their entire lives without being uncovered.

The problems are not just Catholic. It goes so deep in our society. Then when you have a government supporting the degradation of faith and morality, how can you reverse the trend?

 

[nodito]

Quite frankly, I found the whole process extremely draining, and exhausting and expensive. I simply did it because I trust in the Church. My Canon attorney told me up front although he thought mine would be granted of course there are no guarantees.

The process itself with first and second instance courts, nothing of which is “infallible” of course and one court can disagree with the other did nothing to personally instill confidence in the process.

The process is definitely man made but it’s apparently currently the best solution we have to the words of Jesus. My Lutheran Pastor friend told me most every Catholic he converted to Lutheransim did so because they wanted no part of this process.
People ARE leaving the Church for this reason and perhaps we could find a more streamlined easier process with more pastoral care as well.
It would be nice.

Mary.

Mary, I’m curious: Do they do any part of the application process online? Maybe it varies by diocese? I wonder if it would be less complicated if each applicant were given an online portal through which to manage their submissions, questions, track witness contributions, etc. Might cut down on administrative costs as well.

I think if you have ideas of how to better streamline the process, you should start writing letters. I can brainstorm ideas all I want but my opinion doesn’t weigh as much as someone who has gone through it. And it won’t change unless there’s pressure.

 

[bobcrawford]

Mary, I’m curious: Do they do any part of the application process online? Maybe it varies by diocese? I wonder if it would be less complicated if each applicant were given an online portal through which to manage their submissions, questions, track witness contributions, etc. Might cut down on administrative costs as well.

I think if you have ideas of how to better streamline the process, you should start writing letters. I can brainstorm ideas all I want but my opinion doesn’t weigh as much as someone who has gone through it. And it won’t change unless there’s pressure.

I am not sure pressure is what is going to change it. You have a system designed by a bunch of unmarried men who have no real idea what people go through emotionally during a divorce and don’t really care the toll it takes on the rational individuals going through it. That’s my opinion and the opinion of many I have talked to who have gone through the annulment process. It also takes waaaaayyyyy too long. As they say in the civil world, “justice delayed is justice denied.” This especially impacts women who want to have more children. Their time to bear children is very limited and the longer you wait, as in waiting for an annulment, the more risk to the unborn child.

Some cases may have to take a while to sort out if the evidence is cloudy. Other cases are pretty cut and dry. Any spouse who consistently cheats in a marriage was never committed to the marriage before the vows were exchanged. I think Biblically that is supported though some like to argue what Mark REALLY meant. In any case, the word means immorality and adultery is immoral. So why drag the process out when the case is cut and dry?

 

[phil19034]

I am not sure pressure is what is going to change it. You have a system designed by a bunch of unmarried men who have no real idea what people go through emotionally during a divorce and don’t really care the toll it takes on the rational individuals going through it. That’s my opinion and the opinion of many I have talked to who have gone through the annulment process. It also takes waaaaayyyyy too long. As they say in the civil world, “justice delayed is justice denied.” This especially impacts women who want to have more children. Their time to bear children is very limited and the longer you wait, as in waiting for an annulment, the more risk to the unborn child.

Some cases may have to take a while to sort out if the evidence is cloudy. Other cases are pretty cut and dry. Any spouse who consistently cheats in a marriage was never committed to the marriage before the vows were exchanged. I think Biblically that is supported though some like to argue what Mark REALLY meant. In any case, the word means immorality and adultery is immoral. So why drag the process out when the case is cut and dry?

I don’t think this assessment is fair. Does the annulment process need to be modernized? Sure, better use of technology, shared resources, etc.

But I don’t think priest being married has anything to do with it. The current annulment process was designed when society believed that fornication was evil and marriage was till death.

But today, we have too many people who marry the person they are fornicating with, and they fail to either (a) discuss how they will raise children or (b) feel that they can overcome any issues they have because of their love.

They place the marital act of making love before they ever discern whether the person is truly right for them. They place lust in front of true love and create the sexual bond with someone they barely know or maybe even just met.

True love endures all things. True love involves laying one’s life down for the other. When you truly love someone, you can weather all storms. But a marriage based on lust is pretty much destined for failure.

That’s the problem today. We have too many couples who first started dating out of lust, not based on values. “She’s hot,” “he’s so sexy”… There’s no more “I really think she has a wonderful soul” or “he’s such a gentleman.”

Also, how many parents from the 80s, 90s, 2000s, etc would counsel their kids to basically lie in pre-Cana so the priest will agree to marry the children? “Don’t tell the priest you are living together,” “don’t let the priest know you are sexually active,” “don’t tell the priest you met at a bar while you were both drunk.”

This is why marriages fail. Dating is not based on Christian values anymore, but on society’s hedonism.

Finally, in regards to straight forward cases: the problem is assumption. They Church can’t have a position that says, if a spouse cheats from the beginning, we assume it’s invalid. While we can all pretty much assume 95-99% of the time and be right, the Church can’t take that chance. They have to make sure that they are sure (at least for the innocent partner) that the marriage was truly null so the innocent partner doesn’t commit mortal sins due to the cheater’s behavior.

To me, the cure for this is better education regarding what Catholic Matrimony is, what annulments are, etc. We have to teach our middle & high school students so they are prepared, and not taught by society.

Unfortunately, the long term solution doesn’t help much with the present issues. But that’s why pastoral advise comes in and why Cannon Law should be a growing field.

God Bless

 

[Horton]

I am not sure pressure is what is going to change it. You have a system designed by a bunch of unmarried men who have no real idea what people go through emotionally during a divorce and don’t really care the toll it takes on the rational individuals going through it. That’s my opinion and the opinion of many I have talked to who have gone through the annulment process. It also takes waaaaayyyyy too long. As they say in the civil world, “justice delayed is justice denied.” This especially impacts women who want to have more children. Their time to bear children is very limited and the longer you wait, as in waiting for an annulment, the more risk to the unborn child.

Some cases may have to take a while to sort out if the evidence is cloudy. Other cases are pretty cut and dry. Any spouse who consistently cheats in a marriage was never committed to the marriage before the vows were exchanged. I think Biblically that is supported though some like to argue what Mark REALLY meant. In any case, the word means immorality and adultery is immoral. So why drag the process out when the case is cut and dry?

It really sounds as though your female relative needs more time before starting the process. I have two questions about your situation. Was the husband diagnosed as a sociopath or is that your opinion of the man? Do you know that true sociopaths are very rare in real life? It is more likely he has a type of personality disorder. In all reality what you know of the man is what she has told you. I have often found in life there are three sides to every story like this, hers, his, and somewhere in between. I’m not defending poor behavior but…

Second, if this guy is so horrible, why did she marry him? How did they make it through pre-cana? Most people with personality disorders can’t hide it for any real length of time, say several months. So did they marry quickly after meeting or did she ignore signs prior to marriage?

The other issue I have with this is your insistence that because the annulment process must be flawed if it will cause your relative pain. A decree of nullity says the marriage never existed. Because of this is shouldn’t be easy. Divorce is far too easy these days as everyone knows. I, for one, applaud the Catholic Church for not backing down on this issue as most faith communities have. While the process can be made more efficient with the use of technology, most often it is either the petitioner or witnesses that slow the bog down the process.

Just for the record I am a female who has gone through the process.

 

[Horton]

I don’t think this assessment is fair. Does the annulment process need to be modernized? Sure, better use of technology, shared resources, etc.

But I don’t think priest being married has anything to do with it. The current annulment process was designed when society believed that fornication was evil and marriage was till death.

But today, we have too many people who marry the person they are fornicating with, and they fail to either (a) discuss how they will raise children or (b) feel that they can overcome any issues they have because of their love.

They place the marital act of making love before they ever discern whether the person is truly right for them. They place lust in front of true love and create the sexual bond with someone they barely know or maybe even just met.

True love endures all things. True love involves laying one’s life down for the other. When you truly love someone, you can weather all storms. But a marriage based on lust is pretty much destined for failure.

That’s the problem today. We have too many couples who first started dating out of lust, not based on values. “She’s hot,” “he’s so sexy”… There’s no more “I really think she has a wonderful soul” or “he’s such a gentleman.”

Also, how many parents from the 80s, 90s, 2000s, etc would counsel their kids to basically lie in pre-Cana so the priest will agree to marry the children? “Don’t tell the priest you are living together,” “don’t let the priest know you are sexually active,” “don’t tell the priest you met at a bar while you were both drunk.”

This is why marriages fail. Dating is not based on Christian values anymore, but on society’s hedonism.

Finally, in regards to straight forward cases: the problem is assumption. They Church can’t have a position that says, if a spouse cheats from the beginning, we assume it’s invalid. While we can all pretty much assume 95-99% of the time and be right, the Church can’t take that chance. They have to make sure that they are sure (at least for the innocent partner) that the marriage was truly null so the innocent partner doesn’t commit mortal sins due to the cheater’s behavior.

To me, the cure for this is better education regarding what Catholic Matrimony is, what annulments are, etc. We have to teach our middle & high school students so they are prepared, and not taught by society.

Unfortunately, the long term solution doesn’t help much with the present issues. But that’s why pastoral advise comes in and why Cannon Law should be a growing field.

God Bless

Perfectly said:thumbsup:

 

[GratefulFred]

Bob and Phil present both sides very well.

Most humans want what they want and they want it with as little effort as possible. Some realize that to be a true success DOES REQUIRE solid training AND personal commitment to doing it the right way over a life time.

Mistakes are going to happen because we are imperfect. But the rate of mistakes can be and should be greatly reduced by much better training.

Sad to say, too many parents are not well trained and thus cannot well train their children. Sad to also say it seems that less than 10% of the kids in public school show up for Catholic training. And of that small percentage, many choose to discount what is taught. The lure of this world is so much more enticing than trying to follow Christ.

So we see a divorce rate of 50%. We have not been properly taught our purpose in life and our primary relationship with God. And sad to say yet again, we have been taught to life is wonderful - it just WILL turn out all right. No need to look to closely at the CHARACTER of the intended spouse over a sufficient period of time to assess how solid they really are.