Marriage/Divorce/Annulments

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Hello,

Thanks for the reply. On this point, I meant that I doubt a tribunal would ever set up such a system, not that people would never check it, if available.

In my opinion (as a tribunal person, not petitioner/respondent), a better way to check the status of a case is to call. Not only would information be given but it is also an opportunity, in a subtle way, to tell the Tribunal to keep things moving.

Dan
Things should keep moving without a call. It would be sad to think mine took so long because I wasn’t calling the Tribunal. I was told the Tribunal is busy and to wait for letters.

Sad to think something is just sitting somewhere gathering dust. I wish people were told honestly then to call and if so how often is reasonable.

Mary.
 
Things should keep moving without a call. It would be sad to think mine took so long because I wasn’t calling the Tribunal. I was told the Tribunal is busy and to wait for letters. …
Hello,

Sure, things should move. It doesn’t always happen, though. I have no information on your own case so I don’t know what might have happened if you had called. It might not have helped. I am only giving my own opinion, in general.

Dan
 
… People you never even meet in First and Second instant courts making decisions that determine your life course. …
I understand that…and yet, with the added use of technology, you will meet/interact with even fewer people…

Dan
 
Can anyone give some practical suggestions as to how technology could be used to make the “annulment process” more efficient?

I think someone mentioned the idea of a Party being able to check the status of a case online. While convenient, I doubt this would ever be done and I don’t think it would make the process more speedy.

Dan
Dan - First of all, the Church could really make use of technology in lots of places of parish & diocese level administration. For example, if parishes would make better use of electronic tithing, vs cash & checks; then the volunteers used to help count money could spend their time volunteering on something else. Also, if parishes would better utilize email marketing tools like Flocknote or MailChimp, (or even make better use of their websites) then they could better communicate with their parishioners.

Additionally, when some of us speak of using technology in terms of annulments, I think many are often speaking more about the Church worldwide, and not specifically in America. The American tribunals (while not perfect) might be the most efficient in the whole world.

With that said, I think some practical suggestions could be the following:
  1. a National Bishops Conference level “office of tribunal support” (or maybe “office of technology support”) where databases can used to better track status.
  2. Online forms (with backend database) so easier cases (i.e. Lack of Form, etc.) can be routed to the top of the queue and finished quickly. Also so written forms don’t get lost or misplaced.
  3. use of project management software to help keep hard cases on task
  4. national use of video conferencing technology (even if just Skype) to assist with witness interviews. For example: couple lives in New York, witnesses live in Wichita, KS. Witnesses can travel to their local diocese head quarters or a select parish in their deanery with a member of their local tribunal or local dean present during the interview. Then the Tribunal in NYC can interview via Skype and the local tribunal or dean can witness the Skype to assist with body language, etc.
  5. shared technology on the national level so dioceses and provinces can keep costs down and all share in good technology instead of having “it works well in this diocese but doesn’t work well there”
  6. national database of approved Annulment Advocates to help people find a local or even non local advocate.
I’m sure there are others… but these are just a few I can think of right off the top of my head.

God Bless
 
Hello,

Thanks for that kind remark. What are you hoping to accomplish by discussing all of this in these forums?

Dan
I am not sure. Making people aware of the hurt caused by the process. Venting frustration. Verbalizing why so many divorced people leave the Church. Discussion on how a system created by unmarried clergy impacts the lives of others in and/or out of marriage.

Trying most for a compassionate answer for the family member having to go through this and the hurt she feels from a cheating, lying, abusive husband; but then has the hurt continued by the process of the Church.

I hear so much about love thy neighbor, forgiveness, compassion, helping others in need, yet not encountering it when dealing with clergy in the Church. Even some of the lay people working in the Church can be so difficult.

I spoke to a friend of mine about it this past weekend. I told him it is hard for me to believe that Jesus wanted to establish a Church based on so many laws, needing canon lawyers, bureaucracy all created by priests, bishops, cardinals that are so out of touch with the everyday Catholic. I asked him if he thought that this is what Jesus really intended? He said no, he thought it was pretty simple as to what Jesus intended, “love thy neighbor” and of course the love of God.

Jesus always forgave quickly, so why can’t the Church move quickly and simply on annulments especially those where immorality is clearly evident?
 
I am not sure. Making people aware of the hurt caused by the process. Venting frustration. Verbalizing why so many divorced people leave the Church. Discussion on how a system created by unmarried clergy impacts the lives of others in and/or out of marriage.

Trying most for a compassionate answer for the family member having to go through this and the hurt she feels from a cheating, lying, abusive husband; but then has the hurt continued by the process of the Church.

I hear so much about love thy neighbor, forgiveness, compassion, helping others in need, yet not encountering it when dealing with clergy in the Church. Even some of the lay people working in the Church can be so difficult.

I spoke to a friend of mine about it this past weekend. I told him it is hard for me to believe that Jesus wanted to establish a Church based on so many laws, needing canon lawyers, bureaucracy all created by priests, bishops, cardinals that are so out of touch with the everyday Catholic. I asked him if he thought that this is what Jesus really intended? He said no, he thought it was pretty simple as to what Jesus intended, “love thy neighbor” and of course the love of God.

Jesus always forgave quickly, so why can’t the Church move quickly and simply on annulments especially those where immorality is clearly evident?
I feel you want a magic pudding kind of process. Quick. But always gets the right answer, always finds for the person against whom wrong has been done. Does not need to test evidence.

Note that what happens after the vows are made is generally not definitive as to appropriateness of annulment, though it may be suggestive of grounds. Annulment is not a right arising in response to the bad conduct of a person during a marriage. Divorce is indeed that, and in fact does not even require a bad act.

In saying all that, I agree with you 100% that every needless element of the process which adds to the pain should be diminished to the extent possible.
 
Frankly, I think it is very difficult to “test” the evidence for reasons that I think should be pretty obvious.

The time constraint really impacts a woman. In the case of our family member, she is in her early 30s. By age 40, for medical reasons, women are supposed to refrain from having children. So the pressure is on as their viable child bearing years are quickly diminishing. Hence, time being of the essence to the person or people involved, but not to the Church.

I also think that the Church should look at, and consider what happened after the vows. Was mental illness revealed? Did adultery happen right after the vows (show lack of commitment before the vows)? Did one spouse decide they did not want children after the vows? Did one spouse only become Catholic before the vows to get the whole ceremony and not really take the religion seriously? Did one spouse work to prevent the other spouse from attending mass on a regular basis?

I could go on, but there seems to be a lot of reasons after the vows to show that there was not total, life-long commitment before the vows.
 
I also think that the Church should look at, and consider what happened after the vows. Was mental illness revealed? Did adultery happen right after the vows (show lack of commitment before the vows)? Did one spouse decide they did not want children after the vows? Did one spouse only become Catholic before the vows to get the whole ceremony and not really take the religion seriously? Did one spouse work to prevent the other spouse from attending mass on a regular basis?

I could go on, but there seems to be a lot of reasons after the vows to show that there was not total, life-long commitment before the vows.
The Tribunals do look at what happens after the vows. Things that happen after the vows are sometimes symptoms of a null marriage. But they do not cause the marriage to be null.

All the examples you list can be symptoms of a null marriage. But just like in medicen, very different issues can have similar symptoms.

For example:

A cheating spouse doesn’t always mean that the marriage is null, it might mean that the spouse is weak against sexual sin and/or there is something else wrong in the marriage. For example: the cheating partner has a very high sexual drive and the other spouse has an abnormally low, or no, sexual drive. (NOTE: this is not an excuse for adultery, but sometimes a reason for it). It doesn’t mean that the vows were impeded, it means that there is a potential medical, hormonal, emotional issue which needs to be worked out.

At the same time people in null marriages don’t always cheat.

Hence cheating on one’s spouse may or may not be a sign of a null marriage.

Do you understand the difference I’m trying to express?

NOTE: I 100% support eliminating any red tape and/or inefficiencies that exist in any process. But speeding it up for the sake of speed is a bad idea. It would be better to take a while and be accurate vs. quick in wrong.

God Bless
 
The Tribunals do look at what happens after the vows. Things that happen after the vows are sometimes symptoms of a null marriage. But they do not cause the marriage to be null.

All the examples you list can be symptoms of a null marriage. But just like in medicen, very different issues can have similar symptoms.

For example:

A cheating spouse doesn’t always mean that the marriage is null, it might mean that the spouse is weak against sexual sin and/or there is something else wrong in the marriage. For example: the cheating partner has a very high sexual drive and the other spouse has an abnormally low, or no, sexual drive. (NOTE: this is not an excuse for adultery, but sometimes a reason for it). It doesn’t mean that the vows were impeded, it means that there is a potential medical, hormonal, emotional issue which needs to be worked out.

At the same time people in null marriages don’t always cheat.

Hence cheating on one’s spouse may or may not be a sign of a null marriage.

Do you understand the difference I’m trying to express?

NOTE: I 100% support eliminating any red tape and/or inefficiencies that exist in any process. But speeding it up for the sake of speed is a bad idea. It would be better to take a while and be accurate vs. quick in wrong.

God Bless
Regarding accuracy how often do the first and second instance courts (If I recall correctly)
disagree with each other and then what happens?
Mary
 
A female member of our family was recently divorced. Her husband was found to be cheating with several women almost from the beginning of their marriage. She gave him three months to seek help, talk to their parish priest, and make a choice. After three months of him doing nothing, she went to the attorney to start the divorce process.

She wants to get an annulment but considers it more abuse.
Annulments are base on the lack of validity at the time of the marriage. It may be that since her husband was unfaithful from the beginning that this would be an indication of a problem from the beginning. She should read the Jimmy Akin faq below and see the office for annulments in her parish.

I suggest you have her read this before proceeding:
jimmyakin.com/annulments-faq
 
By age 40, for medical reasons, women are supposed to refrain from having children.
Just wanted to point out that although fertility declines after 35, there is no universal medical reason to refrain from having children in your 40s.

I agree that women who want to have (more) children do have an incentive to get through the annulment process quickly.
 
Dan - First of all, the Church could really make use of technology in lots of places of parish & diocese level administration.


I’m sure there are others… but these are just a few I can think of right off the top of my head.
Thanks for the response.

Dan
 
… Jesus always forgave quickly, so why can’t the Church move quickly and simply on annulments especially those where immorality is clearly evident?
Thanks for the response. I would point out that there is no question of “forgiveness” in the situation you describe. What does your family member need to be forgiven for doing? So, that’s a different subject matter.

Also, “the Church” can indeed “move quickly and simply” on cases where the proofs are clearly evident. In the situation you describe, though, there will be no movement until the person decides to get started. I don’t see how any change in procedure would help her.

I pray that she is able to find some peace…

Dan
 
Discussion on how a system created by unmarried clergy impacts the lives of others in and/or out of marriage.

Trying most for a compassionate answer for the family member having to go through this and the hurt she feels from a cheating, lying, abusive husband; but then has the hurt continued by the process of the Church.
I think that it might help if you step back and realize that the decree of nullity process **IS **the compassionate answer.

The Church need not have a process at all.

If that were the case, those who believe their marriage to have had an impediment would have no way to prove it and no recourse to validate their status as free to marry. That would leave them unable to marry.

No need to throw jabs such as your “unmarried clergy” comment. As if that is in any way relevant. It’s not.
 
The Tribunals do look at what happens after the vows. Things that happen after the vows are sometimes symptoms of a null marriage. But they do not cause the marriage to be null.

All the examples you list can be symptoms of a null marriage. But just like in medicen, very different issues can have similar symptoms.

For example:

A cheating spouse doesn’t always mean that the marriage is null, it might mean that the spouse is weak against sexual sin and/or there is something else wrong in the marriage. For example: the cheating partner has a very high sexual drive and the other spouse has an abnormally low, or no, sexual drive. (NOTE: this is not an excuse for adultery, but sometimes a reason for it). It doesn’t mean that the vows were impeded, it means that there is a potential medical, hormonal, emotional issue which needs to be worked out.

At the same time people in null marriages don’t always cheat.

Hence cheating on one’s spouse may or may not be a sign of a null marriage.

Do you understand the difference I’m trying to express?

NOTE: I 100% support eliminating any red tape and/or inefficiencies that exist in any process. But speeding it up for the sake of speed is a bad idea. It would be better to take a while and be accurate vs. quick in wrong.

God Bless
I do see your point. I think the biggest issue that the Church has to come to grips with in adultery situations is the broken trust. I can see where marriages can be more easily repaired with a single instance situation. However, years of adultery can damage a marriage and the inherent trust destroyed beyond repair.

When a priest for whatever reason betrays his parishioners, could that priest ever be trusted again by the parishioners? The Church has discovered that pedophile priests cannot be treated or “repaired” so to speak. Priests with homosexual lovers (yeah, we have one in our Archdiocese) are taken out of the parish and given special assignments. In the case of pedophile priests, they are discharged from being priests.

Just like a marriage. Once that trust is broken, it cannot be easily repaired if at all. Not to mention, the offending spouse has to want to be treated and has to want to save the marriage. If they don’t want to come back and abandon the other spouse, what is the innocent spouse supposed to do with their life? From a Church perspective, the innocent spouse has to go through yet another “divorce” process this time through the Church. All the emotional hurt is resurrected and has to endure the pain of the process all over again. In some cases, they are expected to put their lives on hold for another year or two. If they find another partner, they cannot be married in the Church. If it is a stay-at-home mother rearing children, the affected spouse maybe has to find a job for support, pay for healthcare, put children into day care, spend less time with the children, struggle to pay Catholic tuition, etc. It’s a nightmare in most cases.

Or, they can try to put their lives together, and just go on with life and a new relationship outside the Church and take up the annulment process later when they can get up the emotional strength again to go through the whole divorce process yet again with the Church.

Your examples, like the examples many others have put out there, deal with the actions of normal rational adults. I get it. What the Church in my opinion does not take into account is when the spouse cheating (the adulterer in this case) has mental impairments like being a sociopath. Sociopaths are perfect liars. They enjoy the pain the inflict on others. In fact, they are happiest when they are inflicting pain on another. So putting the affected spouse through a difficult annulment process actual brings them joy and happiness.

Some innocent spouses are willing to bear the pain. Others say no and walk away from the Church. I wonder what Jesus would say to those in both situations if He were around today? Would he tell the woman to go without a loving spouse? Would He tell them to wait a year or two while He investigated? Or would He forgive and allow the people to get on with their lives loving and serving Him?
 
From a Church perspective, the innocent spouse has to go through yet another “divorce” process this time through the Church.
No they don’t. To be very clear, the victimized spouse is not required to go through the anullment procedure at all. They can remain a Catholic in good standing and have access to all the sacraments that any other married individual has access to.
 
I do see your point. I think the biggest issue that the Church has to come to grips with in adultery situations is the broken trust. I can see where marriages can be more easily repaired with a single instance situation. However, years of adultery can damage a marriage and the inherent trust destroyed beyond repair.

When a priest for whatever reason betrays his parishioners, could that priest ever be trusted again by the parishioners? The Church has discovered that pedophile priests cannot be treated or “repaired” so to speak. Priests with homosexual lovers (yeah, we have one in our Archdiocese) are taken out of the parish and given special assignments. In the case of pedophile priests, they are discharged from being priests.

Just like a marriage. Once that trust is broken, it cannot be easily repaired if at all. Not to mention, the offending spouse has to want to be treated and has to want to save the marriage. If they don’t want to come back and abandon the other spouse, what is the innocent spouse supposed to do with their life? From a Church perspective, the innocent spouse has to go through yet another “divorce” process this time through the Church. All the emotional hurt is resurrected and has to endure the pain of the process all over again. In some cases, they are expected to put their lives on hold for another year or two. If they find another partner, they cannot be married in the Church. If it is a stay-at-home mother rearing children, the affected spouse maybe has to find a job for support, pay for healthcare, put children into day care, spend less time with the children, struggle to pay Catholic tuition, etc. It’s a nightmare in most cases.

Or, they can try to put their lives together, and just go on with life and a new relationship outside the Church and take up the annulment process later when they can get up the emotional strength again to go through the whole divorce process yet again with the Church.

Your examples, like the examples many others have put out there, deal with the actions of normal rational adults. I get it. What the Church in my opinion does not take into account is when the spouse cheating (the adulterer in this case) has mental impairments like being a sociopath. Sociopaths are perfect liars. They enjoy the pain the inflict on others. In fact, they are happiest when they are inflicting pain on another. So putting the affected spouse through a difficult annulment process actual brings them joy and happiness.

Some innocent spouses are willing to bear the pain. Others say no and walk away from the Church. I wonder what Jesus would say to those in both situations if He were around today? Would he tell the woman to go without a loving spouse? Would He tell them to wait a year or two while He investigated? Or would He forgive and allow the people to get on with their lives loving and serving Him?
If God joined the 2 into 1, then Jesus said no man is to separate them. The Church cannot abandon obedience to such direct instruction. Thus it must act properly to be quite sure they were in fact not joined. I know a priest who works at the tribunal and he says the typical time to process is a year or so.
 
I do see your point. I think the biggest issue that the Church has to come to grips with in adultery situations is the broken trust. I can see where marriages can be more easily repaired with a single instance situation. However, years of adultery can damage a marriage and the inherent trust destroyed beyond repair.
Yes, that’s a possible situation. However, even if the marriage is damaged ‘beyond repair’, it does not mean that the marriage ceases to exist. In other words, if it’s necessary for the spouses to separate, this does not imply that they are entitled to a new marriage. So, if a person separates, and divorces, but does not wish to go through the nullity process, that’s fine – but it doesn’t mean that they can enter into a new marriage (which seems to be the implication you’re presenting, unless I’ve mistaken the direction that your thought is moving in…).
When a priest for whatever reason betrays his parishioners, could that priest ever be trusted again by the parishioners? The Church has discovered that pedophile priests cannot be treated or “repaired” so to speak.
Note that there are fundamental differences between the case of divorce/remarriage and the case of pedophile priests: the Church has discovered that the advice of psychologists that they had received (i.e., that pedophile priests can be given therapy and then returned to active ministry in parishes) was incorrect. Their pedophilia cannot be ‘repaired’; but it is not the case that their vocation as priest is damaged. (Their faculties to minister publicly may be removed, if appropriate, but the vocation remains: “once a priest, always a priest.”)
In the case of pedophile priests, they are discharged from being priests.
No: they remain priests; however, their faculties for public ministry may be removed. Big difference… and that’s the reason that it’s not “just like a marriage.”
From a Church perspective, the innocent spouse has to go through yet another “divorce” process this time through the Church. All the emotional hurt is resurrected and has to endure the pain of the process all over again.
You realize, of course, that this is what therapy does, right? It’s a process that asks the person to face the issues that have caused them pain, in order to come to terms with them and overcome them. It ‘resurrects’ the negative aspects of the situation in order to put them to rest. This, then, is one of the effects of the nullity process (when it’s handled correctly); it becomes a cathartic, pastoral experience in which the person is able to begin the process of setting aside the guilt and pain that are associated with the failed attempt at marriage.
In some cases, they are expected to put their lives on hold for another year or two.
No – in all cases, it’s presumed that they haven’t moved into a new relationship before they’ve put the prior marriage to rest.
If they find another partner, they cannot be married in the Church.
Yes… because they’re already married in the Church. 🤷
If it is a stay-at-home mother rearing children, the affected spouse maybe has to find a job for support, pay for healthcare, put children into day care, spend less time with the children, struggle to pay Catholic tuition, etc. It’s a nightmare in most cases.
It is – but that’s due to the fallout of the divorce, not due to the nullity process.
Or, they can try to put their lives together, and just go on with life and a new relationship outside the Church and take up the annulment process later when they can get up the emotional strength again to go through the whole divorce process yet again with the Church.
Wait – you’re suggesting that they’re strong enough to recover from their failed marriage (NB: not ‘ignore’ or ‘avoid dealing with’ or ‘pretend they’ve dealt with’, but actually recover from the marriage), and move on to a brand new relationship… but they’re not strong enough to discuss/document that previous marriage? C’mon, now… :nope:
Sociopaths … enjoy the pain the inflict on others. In fact, they are happiest when they are inflicting pain on another. So putting the affected spouse through a difficult annulment process actual brings them joy and happiness.
Actually, the nullity process should help the affected spouse recover from their failed marriage. In other words, it should cause the spouse to be immune from further hurt from that situation. So, “putting the affected spouse through the annulment process” prevents a ‘sociopath’ from additional ‘joy and happiness’.
I wonder what Jesus would say to those in both situations if He were around today? Would he tell the woman to go without a loving spouse? Would He tell them to wait a year or two while He investigated? Or would He forgive and allow the people to get on with their lives loving and serving Him?
Well, we know that he said that a man who divorces his wife causes her to commit adultery. In other words, “getting on with your life” was not a situation that was sinless. For a man (who, in that cultural context, did not need to be re-married in order to survive), he was no less direct: re-marrying, or marrying a divorced woman, made the man an adulterer. I’m not certain you can use the “what would Jesus say?” approach – because we already know what he said… 🤷
 
what is the innocent spouse supposed to do with their life?
Unite it to the Cross of Christ and live out the mission of the Church, just like everyone else.
From a Church perspective, the innocent spouse has to go through yet another “divorce” process this time through the Church.
Actually, no one ‘has to’ pursue a decree of nullity.
In some cases, they are expected to put their lives on hold for another year or two.
Not at all. We are all called to the same mission in Christ through our baptism.
If they find another partner, they cannot be married in the Church.
They shouldn’t be looking for another partner. They are married.

If they do decide to pursue a decree of nullity, there is no guarantee that they will receive one. It is entirely possible their marriage is VALID.
Or, they can try to put their lives together, and just go on with life and a new relationship outside the Church and take up the annulment process later when they can get up the emotional strength again to go through the whole divorce process yet again with the Church.
Why the assumption that to “go on with their life” the have to pursue a romantic relationship? This is a false dichotomy-- get a boyfriend or be miserable. That gives so little credit to women in general and absolutely is an insult to every unmarried woman on the planet.
So putting the affected spouse through a difficult annulment process actual brings them joy and happiness.
If the spouse does not want to pursue a decree of nullity, the Church is not requiring her to do so.
Would he tell the woman to go without a loving spouse?
If she’s already married to another person, yes. Of course he would. In fact, he did-- go and sin no more.
Or would He forgive and allow the people to get on with their lives loving and serving Him?
Another logical fallacy, as if one can simply wave a magic wand and break the bond of the sacrament of marriage. No, Christ would not do such a thing.

Forgive? Yes.
Allow them to “get on with their lives loving and serving him”? Yes
Give them permission to commit adultery? No
 
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