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bobcrawford
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LOL, that’s a good one. Hurt yes, by seeing what it has done to this woman and reading the replies by those who like to spout off Church teaching, but with lack of compassion and understanding. The woman injured by the cheating spouse, ah, no. If I was, I would have said so.
Now I understand why my mother left the Church following the revelation of years of child molestations by clergy. She used to say the Church is nothing but a good 'ol boys club that protected their own and had very little true concern for women. Starting to think she was right.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Why are you Catholic?
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bobcrawford
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If you were married, and started consistently cheating on your spouse with various women from the beginning, or almost the beginning, then it is obvious that you had no real commitment to the marriage from the onset and therefore you never had a valid marriage. If there is evidence of such and witnesses, then the decision is very straight forward and the Church should find it as such. Real simple.Ok fine, say I serial cheat on my wife…
Please answer the question.
Why am I Catholic? Because like most Catholics, that is the religion I was raised in from birth.
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bobcrawford
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A very interesting thesis to read on the meaning of the Matthew exception clauses.
digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1072&context=honors&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dporneia%2Bgreek%2Btranslation%26form%3DAPMCS1#search=%22porneia%20greek%20translation%22
digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1072&context=honors&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dporneia%2Bgreek%2Btranslation%26form%3DAPMCS1#search=%22porneia%20greek%20translation%22
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Your logic does not make sense to me. let’s examine it further.
If a person confesses say… Masturbation. We as Catholics believe that they can be forgiven provided there are certain criteria met. An amendment to not do it again and sorrow and knowing it was wrong. So, if the person trots on home and masturbates the next day, we do not say, well, they did it again,… So they were not forgiven the first time. They of course would need to go to confession again but the first confession was indeed valid for the particular number and kind they committed and confessed. Same here, One can have intent to be monogamous, and true to their spouse, they can mean the vows, and they can fall. So nullity is not synonymous with unfaithfulness.
Outside of the Catholic world this is also true. If a drug addict signs a contract to not use again, say, a court order. The contract is not said to have never existed if they violate it right after. As long as they were sober when they signed it, it is binding.
So bob, again for the sake of argument, if I cheat on my wife how long should I have to wait for the Church to say I never really went out of my marriage because there was no marriage there?
Please, I would love to know…
This is the WORST reason anyone could have for their faith. One should not subscribe to beliefs that effect their eternity and innermost being and their soul simply because one was “born into it.” We live in a world of free will.
I say this not to convince you that you should not be Catholic, but rather to tell you that faith, and belief in God and His Church needs to be a free and full choice of your intellect and will. I often wonder how one can say “amen” to the Eucharist, essentially professing all that the Church teaches, yet reject those teaching they find inconvenient or hard. This is certainly not new. Many followers of Jesus in John Chapter 6 leave because the teaching is “too hard” and notice that Jesus did not go after them making it easier. Actually, John 6. The entire chapter and perhaps the most Catholic thing in the Bible, should be read again by all on this thread. Including me. And definitely you…
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Tomdstone
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These type of psychological inferences are subjective and vague.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Yes they are.
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Horton
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So why do you stay in the Catholic Church? It appears you believe the Church to be evil. Why stay?
You keep stating how “injured” this woman has been, how poorly she has been treated by her ex-husband. What is her part in this? After all she married him. How did she not know how sociopathic he was?
I’m not saying she is at fault for his behavior but bad marriages do not happen in a vacuum. It seems to me rather than affirming her “victim” mentality, she may be better served by having those close to her supporting & affirming a survivor mentality. The Catholic Church has NOT victimized this woman. There is nothing in the Church that forces her to go through the annulment process and if she is too “fragile” to start the process, fears further “victimization” maybe she isn’t in a position to be thinking of dating, remarriage or more children.
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Rau
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I presume there is no hurry, though for some, getting the matter behind them would be a goal. There is something to be said for taking time to heal and settle.
There are cases where “facts” will determine a nullity case with little need for much time or discussion. There are other cases where that’s not possible. And some where the decision is not absolutely clear, and a “wrong” decision may result. What can we do or say about this? That is life.
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Horton
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You are so right! This is life. We have all been injured in some manner throughout our lives and most of us don’t expect the rules to change because we are hurt. Life can get messy. We can either get down and wallow in the mess or we can use our God given gifts to rise above it.
There is only one way for this woman to know if her marriage was valid. All the whining about “fair” doesn’t change that. All the responses on this thread doesn’t change that. Only a marriage tribunal can make the determination. It’s not a matter of compassion or charity, it’s reality. There either was a valid marriage or not.
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Gorgias
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Let’s be accurate. Koine Greek was the lingua franca of the area in that timeframe. Even if that doesn’t sound convincing to you, you’d still have to explain how Jesus ministered in the Decapolis if he didn’t speak Greek.
However, even with this notion in mind, it’s really irrelevant in terms of understanding what the Scripture passage means. The Church asserts that the Bible – in its original form – is inerrant. A non-canonical source asserts that Matthew may have been translated into Greek; but, that’s not something that’s universally held to be true. Therefore, considering that the earliest versions we have are Greek, the Church asserts that, as it’s written down, it is free from error. The rubber meets the road, then, in how we translate the word ‘porneia’ as found there, in a way that’s faithful to the original meaning of the inspired author. So, we’re back to square one: who’s reliable as a translator of that verse? You, personally? The Church?
Really? Then please tell me what the meaning of porneia is in 1 Cor 5:1 –
*Ὅλως ἀκούεται ἐν ὑμῖν πορνεία, καὶ τοιαύτη **πορνεία *ἥτις οὐδὲ ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν, ὥστε γυναῖκά τινα τοῦ πατρὸς ἔχειν.
“It is widely reported that there is **immorality **among you, and **immorality **of a kind not found even among pagans—a man living with his father’s wife.”
Tell me, please: what kind of immorality is it, when a man has sex with his step-mother, other than ‘incest’?
It has more meanings than that; but, I’m glad you agree that it’s necessary to accurately and authoritatively translate the meaning that’s meant by this word, in this context!
Correct: this is the salient question. Do you suggest that your interpretation is more authoritative than the Church’s? On what basis?
No: if Matthew was written in Greek, it’s not a question of “did he get it right?”, unless what you’re asserting is that the inspired authors got it wrong. If so, then you’ve already departed from Christianity.
Matthew used the word that he was inspired to use. Do you disagree?
If this is all that Jesus meant, then why did He not use the word that only means ‘adultery’? Your argument here is a non-starter – Jesus actually does use this word in Matthew 5:32! Here’s the verse:
“But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”
Where we see unlawful, the word is ‘porneia’; where we see adultery, the word is ‘moicheuó’. If – as you assert – Jesus only meant ‘adultery’, why would He not say “whoever divorces his wife (except for adultery) causes her to commit adultery”? I know you’re sensitive to word study … but if you want to make the case that Jesus is talking about ‘adultery’, why would He use the word in that sentence, but not where you want Him to mean adultery?
Really? Can you show me a reference – either from Church teaching or from Scripture – that says that adults must be married for the entirety of their adult lives?
Pot, meet kettle.
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Gorgias
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Humans – who were inspired by God to write Scripture – also wrote inerrently. You’re forgetting about that.
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bobcrawford
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Hoosier, we could debate this for the rest of our lives. Like so many other Catholics today that I discuss this and many other subjects with, they really struggle with the teachings of the Church, what the Bible says, our sinfulness, etc. I as many others see a hypocrisy in the Church and that impacts our belief in the Church’s teachings.
Frankly, this discussion has gone on quite long. My female relative will eventually start the annulment process. Until then she will get a civil marriage.
Frankly, this discussion has gone on quite long. My female relative will eventually start the annulment process. Until then she will get a civil marriage.
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1ke
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Which places her outside the sacraments by her own act of her will and in a state of adultery, grave matter against the sixth commandment.
This puts her soul in jeopardy. What a shame that anyone would counsel her to do this.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Rau
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There are 300+ Emails to be tendered in evidence demonstrating repeated serious failure by the man since the early days of the marriage. [Not proof of invalid marriage, but sure pointing that way!]. One wonders what “expert lies” it is thought the man will tell to earn the Favour of the court? One wonders what other evidence will likely “enrage” the man any more than his own emails? One wonders why the nullity case is not already started. Is there any reason to think this nullity case will be above average difficulty to determine? In our area, 12 months or so is the typical case duration. Yet the woman, in mid-30s, feels a need to not wait and proceed to another marriage.
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bobcrawford
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By golly it looks like the Holy Spirit is having an impact on the plight or married Catholics is abusive, cheating relationships.
sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/06/25/pope-francis-says-divorce-can-be-morally-necessary-for-some-couples/
sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/06/25/pope-francis-says-divorce-can-be-morally-necessary-for-some-couples/
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Gorgias
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By golly, it looks like the San Francisco CBS affiliate misinterpreted Pope Francis! Shocked – shocked, I am!
(Here’s your clue that they got it wrong: Francis talked about separation, which in canon law refers to a married couple who no longer live together, and the article you quote misinterpreted him to be talking about divorce.)
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