Marriage Issue - Lost and Confused

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Thanks Mayita. The St. Francis prayer is special to me because I used to teach at a St. Francis school 🙂
Maybe you can teach again in a catholic school Bernadette. Focus on you and improving yourself. I am a teacher and teaching is such a rewarding profession. What hobbies do you like doing. Do you like to draw? Paint? Maybe you can even do these activities with your kids.

God bless
 
When is the year up? According to him?
Well I don’t keep asking so I don’t know an exact date. The first time he brought up a year was in August when he first mentioned the possibility of divorce. He said he would give it a year of counseling and if that didn’t work he wanted to reevaluate.
 
Maybe you can teach again in a catholic school Bernadette. Focus on you and improving yourself. I am a teacher and teaching is such a rewarding profession. What hobbies do you like doing. Do you like to draw? Paint? Maybe you can even do these activities with your kids.

God bless
Thanks. Sadly, teaching in a Catholic school again would probably not be an option. I’d love to but the the pay is terrible. I’d be better off doing just about anything else, even if I hated the job.

I don’t really have a lot of hobbies right now other than taking care of the kids. I have a volunteer position with an international breastfeeding support group and take phone calls and emails from moms with questions. I also lead monthly meetings. I go to some “mother’s groups” for meetings as well.
 
You have to keep remembering that an important part of such a serious life long commitment is the experience of free consent. You can tell a person all day long that they have to commit but unless that commitment comes from a genuine sense of freedom, the relationship will continue to erode no matter how long they stay. That is why people are not encouraged to marry because of pregnancy. There are many situations both external and internal that can inhibit freedom to consent resulting in invalidity. In the Rite of marriage, right before a couple are asked to consent to marriage the first of three questions is… “Have you come here freely and without reservation to give yourselves to each other in marriage?”

That is why when dealing with marriage troubles, a good counsellor will be able to let a person experience the freedom to leave as the prelude to choosing to stay and recommit. It really is an important factor in the healing process. If someone feels ‘trapped’, unless they can first feel a space of genuine freedom… no decision or recommitment is going to be healthy. Just keep that in mind when counsellors seem to be ‘encouraging’ divorce or not stressing the importance of just ‘sucking it up and getting on with marriage’. It’s a fairly delicate and complex process.
I disagree with you, although I do see where you’re coming from.

Sometimes this new way of thinking breaks my brain. I hate this everyone gets a trophy, you’re a special snowflake and should feel good about you even if you’ve done nothing to earn it, my happy is all important, all that matters is feeling good world we now inhabit. It’s bull hooey.

The reality is that we have our chance to freely commit or back out before the wedding ceremony and birth of children. Once we’ve said our " I do", we did. We’re committed. No take backs, no do overs, no refunds or exchanges. There is no need to make a spouse feel as if they get to freely chose when the going gets rough. They already made that choice when they chose to get married.
 
You have to keep remembering that an important part of such a serious life long commitment is the experience of free consent. You can tell a person all day long that they have to commit but unless that commitment comes from a genuine sense of freedom, the relationship will continue to erode no matter how long they stay. That is why people are not encouraged to marry because of pregnancy. There are many situations both external and internal that can inhibit freedom to consent resulting in invalidity. In the Rite of marriage, right before a couple are asked to consent to marriage the first of three questions is… “Have you come here freely and without reservation to give yourselves to each other in marriage?”

That is why when dealing with marriage troubles, a good counsellor will be able to let a person experience the freedom to leave as the prelude to choosing to stay and recommit. It really is an important factor in the healing process. If someone feels ‘trapped’, unless they can first feel a space of genuine freedom… no decision or recommitment is going to be healthy. Just keep that in mind when counsellors seem to be ‘encouraging’ divorce or not stressing the importance of just ‘sucking it up and getting on with marriage’. It’s a fairly delicate and complex process.
I’ve always read that a good marriage counselor would not encourage divorce unless it was necessary for safety. At the very least, I’d expect some suggestions on how to overcome the issues. It seems like every session is a free for all and we never actually get anywhere or work toward any real goals. I’d just like to see someone else for a second opinion as I’m pretty sure she doesn’t have additional suggestions for us. We could always go back to her if she’s the best we can find - though I kind of doubt that I’d want to see her again. I personally felt she was biased from her personal experience with divorce.

I also don’t think we should all do what makes us happy. Marriage is a lifelong commitment despite how we may be feeling at the moment. Why mention divorce as an option before discussing how to make the marriage happy again?
 
I’ve always read that a good marriage counselor would not encourage divorce unless it was necessary for safety. At the very least, I’d expect some suggestions on how to overcome the issues. It seems like every session is a free for all and we never actually get anywhere or work toward any real goals. I’d just like to see someone else for a second opinion as I’m pretty sure she doesn’t have additional suggestions for us. We could always go back to her if she’s the best we can find - though I kind of doubt that I’d want to see her again. I personally felt she was biased from her personal experience with divorce.

I also don’t think we should all do what makes us happy. Marriage is a lifelong commitment despite how we may be feeling at the moment. Why mention divorce as an option before discussing how to make the marriage happy again?
When contemplating divorce…there are 3 deal breakers. I call them the 3 A’s
Abuse…Adultery…Addiction. …

You cannot force someone to commit…if he/she doesn’t want to. Follow through on this counseling and see where you are after the hub-bub of the holidays are over. February would be a good indicator…if he is still playing you like a violin and whining…or keeps repeating he doesn’t “feel” it any more with you…seriously. …start your plan b. Don’t wait until he starts cleaning out his closet.
 
When contemplating divorce…there are 3 deal breakers. I call them the 3 A’s
Abuse…Adultery…Addiction. …]

I just wanted to point out that in the bible the 3 A’s don’t constitute a divorce, a separation if necessary but then no remarriage. I am very strong on the commitment of marriage, and even though I agree that you can’t make anyone commit, this guy committed himself on his wedding day when he made his vows and said “I do”.

Anyway, I do think that maybe he needs some space, time, etc. Finding a new counselor is great, but maybe BF try not talking about your marriage/divorce when not at the counselor for now. Maybe he just has too much pressure on him, and I do agree that now you need to spend a little bit of time focusing on yourself. This is up to you, but I find so much comfort in spending time with Christ during adoration, see if your church has this. You can pray, read, or just sit with God and I think that it would ease your mind a great deal. I think you should be aware of your options, but still don’t give up on your marriage. Stick with your hope and prayers all they way to the last minute. Remember, I am right there with you. I found this bible passage and it really inspired me “To you God I have made my vows and with offerings, I will fulfill them”
 
Julianna;11425846:
When contemplating divorce…there are 3 deal breakers. I call them the 3 A’s
Abuse…Adultery…Addiction. …]

I just wanted to point out that in the bible the 3 A’s don’t constitute a divorce, a separation if necessary but then no remarriage. I am very strong on the commitment of marriage, and even though I agree that you can’t make anyone commit, this guy committed himself on his wedding day when he made his vows and said “I do”.

Anyway, I do think that maybe he needs some space, time, etc. Finding a new counselor is great, but maybe BF try not talking about your marriage/divorce when not at the counselor for now. Maybe he just has too much pressure on him, and I do agree that now you need to spend a little bit of time focusing on yourself. This is up to you, but I find so much comfort in spending time with Christ during adoration, see if your church has this. You can pray, read, or just sit with God and I think that it would ease your mind a great deal. I think you should be aware of your options, but still don’t give up on your marriage. Stick with your hope and prayers all they way to the last minute. Remember, I am right there with you. I found this bible passage and it really inspired me “To you God I have made my vows and with offerings, I will fulfill them”
Marriage is a sacred and vows are made. A covenant contract is in place. You mean to tell me if a man goes upside oyr head with his fist because you didn’t have dinner ready is cause for a separation…not a divorce? Really. If he is shooting up heroine in the bathroom oor has ganbeled away everything but your toothbrush…its cause for a separation? Really? If you come home from the store and catch him in the sack with the neighbor…aw Just separate…he won’t do it again. Next thing you know you have an STD. Naw don’t divorce him. Let him hang you from the chandelier with a few light body slams…and aw he lves you. You do realize their are women out their suffering from abuse and to you can ts not cause for a divorce? Really… you do know women have the right to vote without their husband’s permission ?
 
Julianna;11425846:
When contemplating divorce…there are 3 deal breakers. I call them the 3 A’s
Abuse…Adultery…Addiction. …]

I just wanted to point out that in the bible the 3 A’s don’t constitute a divorce, a separation if necessary but then no remarriage. I am very strong on the commitment of marriage, and even though I agree that you can’t make anyone commit, this guy committed himself on his wedding day when he made his vows and said “I do”.

Anyway, I do think that maybe he needs some space, time, etc. Finding a new counselor is great, but maybe BF try not talking about your marriage/divorce when not at the counselor for now. Maybe he just has too much pressure on him, and I do agree that now you need to spend a little bit of time focusing on yourself. This is up to you, but I find so much comfort in spending time with Christ during adoration, see if your church has this. You can pray, read, or just sit with God and I think that it would ease your mind a great deal. I think you should be aware of your options, but still don’t give up on your marriage. Stick with your hope and prayers all they way to the last minute. Remember, I am right there with you. I found this bible passage and it really inspired me “To you God I have made my vows and with offerings, I will fulfill them”
Thanks. We don’t have adoration at our parish but a neighboring parish does.

I don’t ever bring up marriage issues other than at the counselor’s. We might continue a discussion that was started at counseling but we don’t talk about it otherwise. I don’t think there’s anything I could say that would make a difference anyway.
 
Julianna said:

“You do realize their are women out their suffering from abuse and to you can ts not cause for a divorce?”

Legal separation is actually a pretty big deal. It’s not at all a minor technicality.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_separation
 
I would be so outta there if a man who said he loved me laid a hand on me. I would get as far away from him as I could. In NC its a 1 yr separation and that can be done on a paper napkin and notarized. I have schooled my daughter. …if a man hits you…its over…the end. If he values drugs, gambling and sleeps around…he has broken the covenant. …the vows…
I have told my son…a wife is not a punching bag and you do not lay a hand on her in anger…it is called abuse and you may fnd yourself n jail and with no wife…and I wouldn’t blame her a bit.

In cases such as the three As…the Church readily grants an annulment…I can’t think of any priest who tell a woman…to stay with her abuser.
 
I would be so outta there if a man who said he loved me laid a hand on me. I would get as far away from him as I could. In NC its a 1 yr separation and that can be done on a paper napkin and notarized. I have schooled my daughter. …if a man hits you…its over…the end. If he values drugs, gambling and sleeps around…he has broken the covenant. …the vows…
I have told my son…a wife is not a punching bag and you do not lay a hand on her in anger…it is called abuse and you may fnd yourself n jail and with no wife…and I wouldn’t blame her a bit.

In cases such as the three As…the Church readily grants an annulment…I can’t think of any priest who tell a woman…to stay with her abuser.
I don’t believe that a priest would tell a woman to stay with her abuser. In cases of abuse, one can divorce and remain single for life even if an annulment is not granted.
 
I don’t believe that a priest would tell a woman to stay with her abuser. In cases of abuse, one can divorce and remain single for life even if an annulment is not granted.
Yes she can. Most women would seek an annulment becase they may want find a “good” guy. They shouldn’t be denied that just because the first one was pond scum.

Sorry hon. .I didn’t mean to derail your thread. It just sends me off the chain to even suggest that a woman has to put with the the three As…and become a martyr.
 
I’ve always read that a good marriage counselor would not encourage divorce unless it was necessary for safety. At the very least, I’d expect some suggestions on how to overcome the issues. It seems like every session is a free for all and we never actually get anywhere or work toward any real goals. I’d just like to see someone else for a second opinion as I’m pretty sure she doesn’t have additional suggestions for us. We could always go back to her if she’s the best we can find - though I kind of doubt that I’d want to see her again. I personally felt she was biased from her personal experience with divorce.

I also don’t think we should all do what makes us happy. Marriage is a lifelong commitment despite how we may be feeling at the moment. Why mention divorce as an option before discussing how to make the marriage happy again?
If she brought up divorce as an option first, that wouldn’t be good, but often times one person has already come into counselling with that option already hovering in the wings. It’s not going to help to ignore it or tell them they can’t do that.

Getting a second opinion or trying a new counsellor is wise if your not feeling confident in the first. I’m just letting you know about this particular aspect that you may find also happens with the new counsellor. It might seem like he is not working to take divorce off your husbands table but the nature of marriage is that its health and longevity depend on spouses experiencing it as a free choice they have committed to rather than a burdonsome contract.
 
If she brought up divorce as an option first, that wouldn’t be good, but often times one person has already come into counselling with that option already hovering in the wings. It’s not going to help to ignore it or tell them they can’t do that.

Getting a second opinion or trying a new counsellor is wise if your not feeling confident in the first. I’m just letting you know about this particular aspect that you may find also happens with the new counsellor. It might seem like he is not working to take divorce off your husbands table but the nature of marriage is that its health and longevity depend spouses experiencing it as a free choice they have committed to rather than a burdonsome contract.
It definitely was on his mind as he did bring it up as an option at the first session. I’m not saying that she should tell him to take it off the table but I don’t want a counselor who would actively encourage him to divorce. I just don’t feel as if this counselor has any suggestions for working on the marriage. I just want to make sure I find someone who doesn’t have a bias toward divorce. I don’t know if she’s truly biased or not - but I don’t want to risk it if we can find someone I’m more comfortable with. I don’t care for her bringing up her personal life and divorce so frequently during our sessions.
 
I disagree with you, although I do see where you’re coming from.

Sometimes this new way of thinking breaks my brain. I hate this everyone gets a trophy, you’re a special snowflake and should feel good about you even if you’ve done nothing to earn it, my happy is all important, all that matters is feeling good world we now inhabit. It’s bull hooey.

The reality is that we have our chance to freely commit or back out before the wedding ceremony and birth of children. Once we’ve said our " I do", we did. We’re committed. No take backs, no do overs, no refunds or exchanges. There is no need to make a spouse feel as if they get to freely chose when the going gets rough. They already made that choice when they chose to get married.
It isn’t really a new way of thinking though. When you go to a general counsellor, you are going to always get a different approach than if you go to marriage encounters (or I believe Retroville is the American version of Catholic marriage programs). When both parties choose specifically ‘marriage’ counselling, they have come there with a particular attitude and both have ‘chosen’, albiet at times tentatively, to work on the marriage. There, counsellors have the client ‘mandate’ to take divorce or separation completely off the table. When people go to general counselling about their marriage, that is a different attitude and experience. The general counsellor knows that he is not working with two people who are freely choosing to work on the marriage exclusively as yet. He generally has one or both of them, fighting the urge to flee. To ‘escape’.

I’ve volunteered with a Catholic pre-marriage and marriage counselling org. for 10 years and over the time of being involved with many people in marriage crisis (not as a counsellor)… you get to see the common trajectory and the need for both to have reached a place of choosing the marriage exclusively for the good progress to be made.

I well know what bernadettefaith has to endure in getting to that point with her husband. It’s involve a certain letting go of control and an enormous leap into faith and lots of silent prayer, to give him the spiritual and psychological space to make that free choice that is necessary. May God bless and help her.
 
When contemplating divorce…there are 3 deal breakers. I call them the 3 A’s
Abuse…Adultery…Addiction. …

You cannot force someone to commit…if he/she doesn’t want to. Follow through on this counseling and see where you are after the hub-bub of the holidays are over. February would be a good indicator…if he is still playing you like a violin and whining…or keeps repeating he doesn’t “feel” it any more with you…seriously. …start your plan b. Don’t wait until he starts cleaning out his closet.
I agree with you here.
 
blessedwith3;11425973:
Marriage is a sacred and vows are made. A covenant contract is in place. You mean to tell me if a man goes upside oyr head with his fist because you didn’t have dinner ready is cause for a separation…not a divorce? Really. If he is shooting up heroine in the bathroom oor has ganbeled away everything but your toothbrush…its cause for a separation? Really? If you come home from the store and catch him in the sack with the neighbor…aw Just separate…he won’t do it again. Next thing you know you have an STD. Naw don’t divorce him. Let him hang you from the chandelier with a few light body slams…and aw he lves you. You do realize their are women out their suffering from abuse and to you can ts not cause for a divorce? Really… you do know women have the right to vote without their husband’s permission ?
Well you can follow God’s word or not. St. Rita’s husband abused her for 20 years. She prayed for him constantly and he converted right before his death. People make mistakes, don’t they deserve forgiveness and a chance to redeem themselves, we are all sinners afterall. Yes, I agree if a man is constantly beating you or having an affair with several women or over and over, or you have an addict and can’t deal with it, you should not have to sit there and take it , but you should then pray for that man while staying loyal to the vows you made. Please don’t make it seem like I don’t know what I am talking about. My husband is having an affair. If you read my other posts you will know what’s going on. I have a family to keep in tact and I promised my husband and God that I would stick with it “FOR BETTER OR WORSE” not until things got too messy and I wanted out. It is my job to get my husband to heaven, right? That’s what I signed up for and I intend to do just that. (Don’t get me wrong it is the hardest thing I ever had to do, but I am working for my salvation as well as his and our children). God says forgive 70 x 7. He forgives murderers, adulterers, fornicators, drug addicts, etc. I think we could all use a little humbling in area. Yes, I know women are beat, lives are endanger, I didn’t say they had to stay, I said not remarry. I am not going to sit here and put my life in danger either, but I am not going to break my vows.

As for BF, I commend her for sticking with this and living up to her vows, and I encourage her to keep it up. From current experience, I know it is not easy, but we are living for God not ourselves. For the record, I respect your opinion, but completely disagree.
 
Julianna;11426036:
Well you can follow God’s word or not. St. Rita’s husband abused her for 20 years. She prayed for him constantly and he converted right before his death. People make mistakes, don’t they deserve forgiveness and a chance to redeem themselves, we are all sinners afterall. Yes, I agree if a man is constantly beating you or having an affair with several women or over and over, or you have an addict and can’t deal with it, you should not have to sit there and take it , but you should then pray for that man while staying loyal to the vows you made. Please don’t make it seem like I don’t know what I am talking about. My husband is having an affair. If you read my other posts you will know what’s going on. I have a family to keep in tact and I promised my husband and God that I would stick with it “FOR BETTER OR WORSE” not until things got too messy and I wanted out. It is my job to get my husband to heaven, right? That’s what I signed up for and I intend to do just that. (Don’t get me wrong it is the hardest thing I ever had to do, but I am working for my salvation as well as his and our children). God says forgive 70 x 7. He forgives murderers, adulterers, fornicators, drug addicts, etc. I think we could all use a little humbling in area. Yes, I know women are beat, lives are endanger, I didn’t say they had to stay, I said not remarry. I am not going to sit here and put my life in danger either, but I am not going to break my vows.

As for BF, I commend her for sticking with this and living up to her vows, and I encourage her to keep it up. From current experience, I know it is not easy, but we are living for God not ourselves. For the record, I respect your opinion, but completely disagree.
In St. Rita’s time, she didn’t have any recourse, nevermind “rights”. Women were considered “property”. She couldn’t call the law, she couldn’t answer back, fight back, she had no where to go and no way to make a living. She stayed. A woman in domestic violence has rights, the right not be abused, the right to think for herself, the right to protect her children from an abusive monster, the right to have him jailed, a protection order, the right to prosecute the abuser. I am not discounting prayer…it does work. Fast forward to to “today”, the “here and the now”.

Yes, God forgives. Before the abuser, addict and adulterer can get “my” forgiveness and my “prayers”, he has to “get right” and “seek forgiveness” from God.

BF is doing what she needs to do to save her marriage. Her husband is very different from yours. I believe BF would be crushed and heartbroken if her husband was having an affair. This is not the case.

Your husband needs to seek his own salvation and forgiveness. If it is okee dokey with you that he sleeps around…be prepared for an STD.

Staying loyal to the “vows”? Really…you can stay loyal, but he can party till cows come home?

In an abusive situation, addiction, adultery, 9 times out of 10, the woman will stay…because she has “no” resources. She has no job, no money, the finances are all in his name, the house, the car, all of it, the bank account. I do not see in this day and age where a woman would sit still for that. It is called “control”. I have told my daughter, learn a skill, go to school, learn how to do something even if it’s tasting pies in a pie factory. Make your own money. Yes, share it with the family…but have a means of making it on your own, if need be.

Glad you are ok with your husband tom-catting around…I would not. He would be so outta of there. HE broke the vows…why should you pay the price?

I wouldn’t even think of crawling into bed every night knowing he is sleeping around, or knowing that his addiction may lead to harming me or our children, or the police finding me dead on the kitchen floor, because the dinner didn’t come out like “he” wanted it. Now my children have no mother and their father is in jail for life. Yep, that’s the life I want for my “innocent” children.

For worse doesn’t mean I have to endure a black eye, or have our finances drained because he can’t get off the “horse”, or he contracts some disease and now I have to endure many Dr. visits for an STD that may kill me and/or make me infertile. Your husband did not live up to “forsake all others”. You did, he did not. I would “repossess” the marriage on the grounds of “broken covenant”. Annulment would be the next order of business. Why should this jerk keep me from my faith, my Church?

I cannot and do not understand women this day and age who continue to allow themselves to be abused. The graveyard is filled with moms whose children are now motherless. My children, their well being and safety is paramount. I pray that God would give me strength to move myself and my children away from the abuser, addict and adulterer.
 
These things are rarely as black and white as you’ve painted them though. For example, I’ve been thinking a lot about my uncle who died in his sleep over last night at 81. He had 7 children with his wife … however one of those children, the second last, is not his biological child. His wife ‘stepped out on him’ 49 years ago and unfortunately my cousin looks drastically different with her dark features and perfect smile compared to her siblings who all have auburn or blond hair freckles and ‘crowded’ teeth.

He was a proud man and not someone you’d expect to suck up something like that, but he did and they ended up married for nearly 60 years. It really did turn out to be a strong and happy marriage into their old age. One of their sons is even a priest who will officiate at his funeral on Wednesday.

You’ve got to think in the big picture with a marriage. It’s not an ordinary relationship like all other relationships and by virtue of sacramental grace, we are given supernatural resources to go that extra 100 miles for marriage sake.
 
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