Married men and women as friends

[EasterJoy]

EasterJoy said:

““On second thought” means you are overruling your initial intuition–why?”

As I said, because I just remembered that we had given a couple a used dryer of more or less the same value. And remember, that’s the only really expensive gift he has given.

For IHGC:

Thanks for improving your tone.

It was a five-year-old Sears dryer (we were in the process of moving to an apartment that already had a landlord-provided dryer). So, not a super expensive item, but in the same financial ballpark as the lens.

I think your wife should tell him that she isn’t using the lens, and to offer it back to him and mention she will be giving it away or selling it if he doesn’t want it. Then get a sitter (if you need one) and go out to dinner with the money. Presto–he gets to be a friend to your marriage.

Keep in mind that the OP’s wife had a lens of lesser value that was a gift from the OP. To give the lens to the wife instead of to the couple was bound to hurt the husband’s feelings. Had the friend to do it all over again, I’d hope he’d give the husband a great deal on the lens, so that he could do the couple a favor and let the gift be from the husband or at least to the couple and not just to the wife.

It was a faux pas on the fellow’s part, but the time to rectify the situation graciously may be passed. The OP might insist on paying the fellow something for it, or might personally do the fellow a favor that lets the guy know that the gift was not received by the wife alone–IOW, no pie from the wife, but maybe some smoked meat prepared by the husband for the fellow and his wife. If the fellow offers another such gift, the wife ought to turn it down–she might insist that surely he has other friends in photography who would like such largess to be spread around!–or else tell the friend that her husband will insist on paying him something, because the first gift was too generous for them (the couple) to accept. IOW, she ought to ALWAYS talk about the lens as a gift to “us” not a gift to “me”, so the fellow realizes that she sees him as someone who is expected to be a friend of her marriage. Otherwise, though, just let it go. I think the wife will prefer this option, frankly, and the OP does have to avoid embarrassing her when he can.

 

[EasterJoy]

Easter Joy,

The numbers I am seeing suggest that married women do somewhat less cheating than married men (I expect the disparity has something to do with strippers/prostitutes/etc. being a cheating husband thing, rather than a cheating wife thing).

Also, it doesn’t look like 2/3 is a consistent poll result. There are much lower numbers here:

nbcnews.com/id/17951664/ns/health-sexual_health/t/many-cheat-thrill-more-stay-true-love/#.Uk3JM9I3vvw

The experts admit that around 36% of married women cheat and around 18% admit to having a* sexual* laison, and that being married and having children does not inoculate a married woman from cheating–this is supposed to make a man whose wife is getting expensive gifts from some guy feel better?

The stage is set for an emotional affair. It is by no means certain, nor even the most likely thing to happen. An emotional affair, though, is like a house fire, not like a fender-bender. It attacks the foundational trust in a marriage. We ought to take reasonable steps to avoid them. For a married woman to have male friends is like having candles in your house. It is not an invitation to disaster, but all the firefighters will still tell you that if you insist on lighting one of those d$%ed things in your house, for heaven’s sake at least do not leave one unattended!

That’s what I think we have here. If a married woman is going to have male friends or a married man is going to have female friends, the situation ought to be thought as a pleasant thing that still carries a certain danger, a danger that ought not be left unattended. It’s a reasonable trade-off.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

The experts admit that around 36% of married women cheat and around 18% admit to having a* sexual* laison, and that being married and having children does not inoculate a married woman from cheating–this is supposed to make a man whose wife is getting expensive gifts from some guy feel better?

The stage is set for an emotional affair. It is by no means certain, nor even the most likely thing to happen. An emotional affair, though, is like a house fire, not like a fender-bender. It attacks the foundational trust in a marriage. We ought to take reasonable steps to avoid them. For a married woman to have male friends is like having candles in your house. It is not an invitation to disaster, but all the firefighters will still tell you that if you insist on lighting one of those d$%ed things in your house, for heaven’s sake at least do not leave one unattended!

That’s what I think we have here. If a married woman is going to have male friends or a married man is going to have female friends, the situation ought to be thought as a pleasant thing that still carries a certain danger, a danger that ought not be left unattended. It’s a reasonable trade-off.

Who the heck are these “experts” that you keep quoting who “admit” that 2/3 of people cheat? I really need some credible sources here.

 

[Xantippe]

Easter Joy said:

“The experts admit that around 36% of married women cheat and around 18% admit to having a sexual laison, and that being married and having children does not inoculate a married woman from cheating–this is supposed to make a man whose wife is getting expensive gifts from some guy feel better?”

That’s not 2/3. I don’t think you should be using such a high number, because it’s fuel for people like Calilobo (on that other long-running thread) who think that marriage is not viable, realistic or worthwhile.

To be perfectly honest, I don’t have any close male friends (I used to as a college student and single woman) and I’m overjoyed that my husband doesn’t currently have close IRL female friends (although he has long-time female internet friends, including I believe at least one poster from this forum).

 

[m_crane]

Trust your instincts.

Our family was destroyed when my dad pursued a “friendship” with woman who was a casual friend of my parents.

When I asked my mother why she did not worry that my dad was having an affaire. She told me that it was because she completely trusted my dad. I’m guessing that there are very few saints living on planet, my dad sure wasn’t one of them. That kind of trust has to be tempered with a healthy dose of the realization that we are all capable of some serious sin given the right circumstances. Maybe that’s why there have been so many social taboos to set boundaries on what is proper for married people in other social relationships, especially between male and female, unfortunately these sensible precautions are no longer respected in our culture or in todays modern society.

That being said, I think you will be OK because you seem to have a healthy dose of jealousy. I think that if you were a crazy jealous husband you wouldn’t even allow your wife access to be alone with another man.

Like another poster said sometimes jealousy can be a good thing.

 

[EasterJoy]

Easter Joy said:

“The experts admit that around 36% of married women cheat and around 18% admit to having a sexual laison, and that being married and having children does not inoculate a married woman from cheating–this is supposed to make a man whose wife is getting expensive gifts from some guy feel better?”

That’s not 2/3. I don’t think you should be using such a high number, because it’s fuel for people like Calilobo (on that other long-running thread) who think that marriage is not viable, realistic or worthwhile.

To be perfectly honest, I don’t have any close male friends (I used to as a college student and single woman) and I’m overjoyed that my husband doesn’t currently have close IRL female friends (although he has long-time female internet friends, including I believe at least one poster from this forum).

The 1/3 number was in the “rebuttal” article; others use higher numbers. The point is that when couples decide that opposite-sex friends are OK–IMHO, it is a personal decision that the couple makes and ought to re-visit as either spouse feels necessary–it is not a decision that is without perils coming along with the rewards. There ought to be a certain level of care taken, that is all I am saying. It is not paranoid to see the danger that is normally there. If one didn’t think this person had some nice redeeming features that far outweighed their faults, after all, who would even choose them as a friend?

When married people “fall in love” with a friend outside the marriage, one can expect that the friendship will have to be cut off in order for the marriage to survive. Who wants that to happen to what could have been an innocent and fruitful friendship, had more prudence been exercised? It’s a bad situation, even if the parties involved reject the temptation to covet or to have an affair. It is worth staying away from that.

 

[EasterJoy]

Who the heck are these “experts” that you keep quoting who “admit” that 2/3 of people cheat? I really need some credible sources here.

My point is that even the most conservative estimates reveal that this is an area that deserves to have some care taken. For those of us who have friends of the opposite sex, common sense tells us that care has to be taken.

Consider the friend that you met before you married that you wanted to keep as a friend but that you did not want falling in love with you. Consider the friend who was dating your best friend, the wonderful guy you simply could not allow yourself to fall for. There were boundaries you had in place, boundaries to keep from the friendship being ruined, boundaries to keep feelings from being hurt or needless jealousies from being aroused, boundaries to prevent the regrettable task of rejecting someone that you might think would make someone else a very good spouse. That is the level of boundary I am talking about, which is to say the boundary that says clearly that “us as a couple” is not in the cards. It is not a lot to ask; single people do it all the time! When you don’t want to fall for the guy or to have him fall for you, it is the kind of boundary you put on yourself without a second thought. It is not disrespectful to ask your spouse to call upon that kind of boundary after marriage, too.

 

[maryjk]

Perhaps I should have said “protecting our marriage”. And as for protecting my wife physically, of course it’s my job. Men tend to be stronger, tend to be the aggressors. It’s a man’s job to protect his family.

Stick that in your feminist pipe and smoke it!

Neither is her having an affair. That’s not happening now and I intend to make sure it doesn’t in the future.

If you have to cut her off from everyone to make sure it doesn’t happen. Right?

(most of them are pigs), (I don’t trust them near her), (darned right I am. It’s my job as husband, father and HoH).

Back to the Men are Pigs?

 

[iHeartGrumpyCat]

Trust your instincts.

Our family was destroyed when my dad pursued a “friendship” with woman who was a casual friend of my parents.

Wow, that is almost exactly what happened to my family. Dad took up with the wife of a couple he and my mom socialized with.

Ruined his budding career and left him working crummy jobs for the rest of his life.

Oh, yeah, ruined his family, too, as his sons were raised on the other side of the country.

When I asked my mother why she did not worry that my dad was having an affaire. She told me that it was because she completely trusted my dad. I’m guessing that there are very few saints living on planet, my dad sure wasn’t one of them. That kind of trust has to be tempered with a healthy dose of the realization that we are all capable of some serious sin given the right circumstances. Maybe that’s why there have been so many social taboos to set boundaries on what is proper for married people in other social relationships, especially between male and female, unfortunately these sensible precautions are no longer respected in our culture or in todays modern society.

That being said, I think you will be OK because you seem to have a healthy dose of jealousy.

A healthy dose of jealousy and a horse whip!

I think that if you were a crazy jealous husband you wouldn’t even allow your wife access to be alone with another man.

Like another poster said sometimes jealousy can be a good thing.

 

[iHeartGrumpyCat]

If you have to cut her off from everyone to make sure it doesn’t happen. Right?

Sigh Didn’t you read my post about bees? I’m not even asking her to sever relations with the contractor, just add a little space between them.

Back to the Men are Pigs?

Excellent remark! You prove yourself to be virtuous and untainted by men.

I, on the other hand, interact with men when they aren’t on their best behavior and assure that, yes, a lot of them (most, a lot, most, a lot, this is another number that can be argued either way) are pigs.

There are very few I would trust with my children or my wife.

Of course there are a few like me…

Ha,ha, on edit I would like to make note of your signature:
“We home school because we have seen the village, and we don’t want it raising our child” my husband

That seems a bit of a contradiction to me.

 

[Evania]

Easter Joy: "You’re telling him that if his wife is unfaithful, it will be his fault, because you’ve been finding him annoying. Nice. Very nice. Yes, that will make him feel much more secure about his marriage…good move, I’m sure his wife will thank you, too.

Ummm…If you’re going to quote me: Show me where I said he was annoying. I copied and pasted it twice now, so stop lecturing me for something I didn’t say. I take offense to his attitude to the women who have been commenting which has been noted by everyone other than you. Now I will say it once more: IF she leaves him, it will be because of this type of behavior. Now, please stop misquoting me.

You said: Yes, let’s look at your early post:
What did I say to suggest that this is no big deal? I actually believe the opposite…I definitely believe that this man shouldn’t be giving your wife gifts, expensive or otherwise. I don’t know what this man’s intentions are, but it’s just plain odd and innapropriate. I personally do not believe in close bonds of friendships between the sexes especially when one is married. I hope that your wife listens to your feelings on this matter.

"Why did you change your tune? "

Simple. Because we got more of the story.

You said: “The facts of the situation didn’t change, only your perception of the OP. Do your principles change when someone annoys you? How did you go from thinking the situation was odd and inappropriate to thinking the OP was emotionally unstable (?!?) for finding it odd and inappropriate and not brooking any argument over that point?”

Nobody knows the whole story. Not me, not you, even the OP doesn’t know all the facts, but yet he’s talking about getting ammo. I was giving my advice to someone who I thought was rational. Is analyzing what the wife meant when she said, “I’m his water girl.” sound rational to you? I want to add that MMJean laid out some very good points. I agree with her on those points. Also, I got a chance to read his earlier thread on hugging. That was enough for me to change my position in one second.

 

[EasterJoy]

… I was giving my advice to someone who I thought was rational. Is analyzing what the wife meant when she said, “I’m his water girl.” sound rational to you?..

Yes, I do think it rational to notice that the other spouse is taking note of the relationship between my spouse and his/hers. It does not constitute a conclusion, but it is certainly a relevant thing to take note of.

Forgive me for jumping to the conclusion that you are finding the OP annoying. That conjecture probably hopped in with the thing you posted about notifying the moderator about him. At any rate, if you’re going to come out and tell someone you think they’re irrational and don’t *sound *emotionally stable, you can probably save yourself the trouble of adding advice to the assessment. Once you conclude you’re dealing with a pig, you may as well save everyone some trouble and stop trying to teach it to sing. Just sayin’…

And on that note…

 

[iHeartGrumpyCat]

…he’s talking about getting ammo…

Ammo-
information
n. facts, news

Talking points are what I’m looking for and I’ve gotten quite a few good ones, mostly from EasterJoy, but al lot from others.

Thanks to you all, you’ve helped me flesh out my argument (OMG, is that term too confrontational?), which should help in achieving a satisfactory resolution.

 

[Evania]

Yes, I do think it rational to notice that the other spouse is taking note of the relationship between my spouse and his/hers. It does not constitute a conclusion, but it is certainly a relevant thing to take note of.

Forgive me for jumping to the conclusion that you are finding the OP annoying. That conjecture probably hopped in with the thing you posted about notifying the moderator about him. At any rate, if you’re going to come out and tell someone you think they’re irrational and don’t *sound *emotionally stable, you can probably save yourself the trouble of adding advice to the assessment. Once you conclude you’re dealing with a pig, you may as well save everyone some trouble and stop trying to teach it to sing. Just sayin’…

And on that note…

Yes, I questioned the OP on his use of derogatory language directed to the women on this forum. Someone who does that is in my opinion, emotionally unstable. I’m not the only one who took issue with it. I’m sorry if you approve of it, and I riled your feathers.


Now, enough with this silliness.

 

[Xantippe]

An additional factor is the OP keeps using these violent metaphors–he’s got a horsewhip, he’s going to kick this guy’s rear end, etc. He’s entirely putting this on the other guy. The person the OP needs to worry about and talk to is his wife. That’s the person who vowed life-long fidelity to him, not the other guy. The OP’s wife is an actual person and she is responsible for herself. Talk to her (without any of the rhetorical flourishes used in this thread) and forget about the guy. If she wants to, she is perfectly capable of fending off dozens of amorous married men loaded down with diamond tennis bracelets. She doesn’t need the OP’s protection in any other way than him just mentioning that he feels uncomfortable with her getting so many gifts and so much attention from this guy and could she put a little more space between them? The rest of it is all up to her.

 

[severus68]

iHeartGrumpyCat:
Really? Don’t think so. It would appear you just want people to agree with you are less than charitable when someone disagrees. You have got all the advice you need from an anonymous forum. Try talking to your wife honestly about your issues and fear. They are yours. Try talking to a priest.

 

[dedo]

Ammo-
information
n. facts, news

Talking points are what I’m looking for and I’ve gotten quite a few good ones, mostly from EasterJoy, but al lot from others.

Thanks to you all, you’ve helped me flesh out my argument (OMG, is that term too confrontational?), which should help in achieving a satisfactory resolution.

It is a little scary that your “resolution” is all about someone else changing, and not you changing.

 

[hurting]

IHGC,

Pay attention to what EasterJoy says here. There is much wisdom in her posts.

BTW, you should jealously guard your marriage.

Regarding EJ’s analogy of the two ditches on the side of the road (one I assume is the ditch of infidelity, the other is the ditch of marital discord brought on by overbearing spouses pushing too far to prevent infidelity)…

I do not see these ditches as equally dangerous. The road I envision is more like a curvy mountain highway with steep drop-offs on one side and a true drainage ditch on the other. WHile the goal, of course, is to stay in hte marked lane of traffic, better to err on hte side of caution and end up in the ditch (the ‘overbearing’ one) than to plunge to an almost certain death.

 

[Xantippe]

“WHile the goal, of course, is to stay in hte marked lane of traffic, better to err on hte side of caution and end up in the ditch (the ‘overbearing’ one) than to plunge to an almost certain death.”

No way. For one thing, the OP cannot prevent his wife from meeting other men. For another thing, overbearing, jealous, controlling spouses destroy marriages every day. He cannot “protect” his wife from other men by being jealous (in fact, he may just open her eyes to the fact that 1) he isn’t all that and 2) other men like her). There’s no safety in jealousy.

I, as a wife, think it would be very imprudent to be telling my husband what a sexy, sexy guy he is, and how I’m sure that there are dozens of women out there who would love to get their hands on him. The first part of that is fine, add in the second part, and you might well have a spouse who starts considering their other options.

 

[hurting]

“WHile the goal, of course, is to stay in hte marked lane of traffic, better to err on hte side of caution and end up in the ditch (the ‘overbearing’ one) than to plunge to an almost certain death.”

No way. For one thing, the OP cannot prevent his wife from meeting other men. For another thing, overbearing, jealous, controlling spouses destroy marriages every day. He cannot “protect” his wife from other men by being jealous (in fact, he may just open her eyes to the fact that 1) he isn’t all that and 2) other men like her). There’s no safety in jealousy.

I, as a wife, think it would be very imprudent to be telling my husband what a sexy, sexy guy he is, and how I’m sure that there are dozens of women out there who would love to get their hands on him. The first part of that is fine, add in the second part, and you might well have a spouse who starts considering their other options.

I have no idea what the last paragraph is referring to. Jealously guarding is not the same as being jealous, for what it’s worth. A husband can most certainly protect his marriage (his wife if you will) by taking reasonable precautions so as not to let potentially adulterous relationships take root much less flower.

There is more than just a hint of at least potential impropriety in the OP’s situation, so his concern is warranted.