Married men with SSA - Should we be publicly open about it?

[Fairwinds]

… You know as well as I that, in our culture, women are allowed to be **much **more affectionate with each other than men are – combing each other’s hair, massages, nail polishing. Similar rituals have existed for men, in many cultures, because men need men. But our culture has gotten rid of these things. All men, heterosexual or homosexual, are worse for the lack…:

do you have any men friends? and if so, in what context?

not trying to sound argumentative, but it doesn’t appear that you have any healthy male friendships.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Ok I don’t know what women you hang out with, but NO woman I know combs my hair, gives me massages or polishes my nails. These are childish things that you do at a slumber party with friends when you are 10.

I hang out with my wife, among others. These things are relatively normal around here. Certainly not childish.

Inhave never gotten a massage from another woman nor have I ever seen it done.

A simple shoulder massage, while sitting? That’s really so foreign to you?

BUT, men also huddle to keep warm while camping. Sitting on another man’s lap and giggling (even after a few drinks) is a decidedly feminine thing to do. That’s just how it is. Women are more nurturing and affectionate by nature-it is a part of who they are. I think you know this on some level. Most men simply do not have this need you are talking about.

(1) I’ve never huddled up with other men to keep warm. That would be awkward, in this culture.
(2) Perhaps most men don’t have this need because the need has been met. Or because the need was never met, so they were never aware of it. My father was extremely affectionate, and then he was gone. It seems a normal response to have a big empty space where that affection once was.

I’m sorry that you didn’t get the affection you need, and perhaps your mother wasn’t affectionate enough either. I actually have a male friend who questioned his sexuality as he was growing up, and he is still one of the more affectionate men I know. Do you know what made him question his sexuality? His mother coming out as a lesbian. People at school made fun of him and called him gay because of his mom, and he thought “Well, maybe I am”

That’s not the whole story. Men are not capable of suddenly *deciding *to find other men attractive; that’s not how it works.

And I wasn’t “making excuses” for the behavior of Jesus. He certainly doesn’t need it. I just think you are romanticizing a passage in the Bible that just says John was leaning against Jesus like it was snuggle time. John was a kid and they were laying down at the table like everyone did in those days.

If something is specifically mentioned in John’s gospel, it’s significant in some way. (Ask John scholars). This is the “disciple that Jesus loved” and this is a case of Jesus showing that love. Now the point is not that physical affection should be shown in that way, in our day and age. But there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with “snuggle time” between grown men; it’s culturally encoded that this is taboo, in our time.

I still believe there is probably a biological component to this. My dad died when my brother was 4. My mom soon married a man who turned out to be a real *** and treated my brother like garbage. My brother was CONSTANTLY craving approval from father figures. Never did he struggle the way you are struggling and he is married now. If your issues were merely the result of needing male intimacy, I would think it would be a predictable issue with men who are lacking a father figure.

(1) You likely wouldn’t know if he had struggled. SSA men are very good at hiding. Not that I’m saying he does.
(2) There’s a logical fallacy here. Simply because A causes B under certain conditions does not mean that A always causes B. I’m not saying that intimacy issues cause SSA as a rule. I’m saying that they contribute. Moreover, real intimacy can provide healing (though I agree that this process could be problematic).
(3) Perhaps there is something about certain boys that causes them to develop SSA in situations like this. Other boys, that don’t have the same innate predispositions, don’t develop SSA.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

do you have any men friends? and if so, in what context?

not trying to sound argumentative, but it doesn’t appear that you have any healthy male friendships.

Yes, I have a good number of male friends, as well as two brothers, and a best friend from childhood with whom I am still close. But am I really open and vulnerable in these relationships? In one or two of them, but not many.

 

[thewanderer]

Ok I don’t know what women you hang out with, but NO woman I know combs my hair, gives me massages or polishes my nails. These are childish things that you do at a slumber party with friends when you are 10. And the massage thing sounds like a setup for a porno. Inhave never gotten a massage from another woman nor have I ever seen it done. In our 20s, when we would drink way too much out on the back porch, we would cram into the same chair and share a blanket to stay warm and occasionally playfully sit on each other’s laps and give each other a hug. BUT, men also huddle to keep warm while camping. Sitting on another man’s lap and giggling (even after a few drinks) is a decidedly feminine thing to do. That’s just how it is. Women are more nurturing and affectionate by nature-it is a part of who they are. I think you know this on some level. Most men simply do not have this need you are talking about.

I’m sorry, but my sisters are totally willing to comb my hair, give me massages, or paint my nails. Especially one of them, and she also sits on my lap and pulls my arms around her just for the sake of it, or will hug me quite frequently etc etc, and I am in my mid-twenties and she is in college. This kind of showing of affection is definitely not something that is just for 10 year olds. As for the claim without any real reason that such things are wrong between men, I’m sorry but that is just false. We know that such actions can occur without any romance involved. So why would they be wrong? (ie immoral). I know they would be unusual to see, they might even make one uncomfortable, but immoral? Nope, not seeing how. In fact, I knew some guys at college (very catholic guys, one of whom is now happily married with a kid) who would engage in such behaviour, giving each other massages etc. from time to time. I just don’t see what could possibly be immoral about such behaviour so long as there is nothing romantic underlying it.

 

[Fairwinds]

I’m sorry, but my sisters are totally willing to comb my hair, give me massages, or paint my nails. Especially one of them, and she also sits on my lap and pulls my arms around her just for the sake of it, or will hug me quite frequently etc etc, and I am in my mid-twenties and she is in college. This kind of showing of affection is definitely not something that is just for 10 year olds.** As for the claim without any real reason that such things are wrong between men, I’m sorry but that is just false. We know that such actions can occur without any romance involved. So why would they be wrong? (ie immoral). I know they would be unusual to see, they might even make one uncomfortable, but immoral? Nope, not seeing how. In fact, I knew some guys at college (very catholic guys, one of whom is now happily married with a kid) who would engage in such behaviour, giving each other massages etc. from time to time.** I just don’t see what could possibly be immoral about such behaviour so long as there is nothing romantic underlying it.

(emphasis added)

college is an artificial, odd, sheltered time of life, its not a good analog for the regular world. at least in my fairly ordinary life, I don’t know of any group of men (except for gays) in which someone who likes embracing other men and giving massages (don’t want to speculate about what “etc” might mean) would be welcome or that behavior tolerated. most of us view those acts (or rather, attempted acts) as “get the bleep away from me” kind of gay.

I’d be interested in any counter examples from post-collegiate men reading this thread.

 

[thewanderer]

(emphasis added)

college is an artificial, odd, sheltered time of life, its not a good analog for the regular world. at least in my fairly ordinary life, I don’t know of any group of men (except for gays) in which someone who likes embracing other men and giving massages (don’t want to speculate about what “etc” might mean) would be welcome or that behavior tolerated. most of us view those acts (or rather, attempted acts) as “get the bleep away from me” kind of gay.

I’d be interested in any counter examples from post-collegiate men reading this thread.

Trust me, these guys will not have stopped this just because they left college, it is an integral part of how they interact with each other. And for anybody who knows them it is not weird at all, or in any way seen as gay. They have a different dynamic among themselves then most men, and among most men it would be looked at oddly, I get that. Also, I would just like to point out that they are not constantly going around giving each other massages, or sleeping in the same bed or anything like that, but just that they would have no problem giving each other a shoulder massage or a hug, they are not scared off by such actions as though they are afraid there is romantic attacthment invovled. They know each other well enough to know that such is not at all the case and so feel no reason to freak out about it. They are also confident enough in their own manliness that they don’t feel any need to “prove” it to the world by avoiding any situation that could be seen to make them less manly. Yeah, its not how most men interact or would ever interact, but I really don’t see why it would ever be immoral. It isn’t done because of cultural reasons, not because of moral reasons.

 

[Fairwinds]

Trust me, these guys will not have stopped this just because they left college, it is an integral part of how they interact with each other. And for anybody who knows them it is not weird at all, or in any way seen as gay. They have a different dynamic among themselves then most men, and among most men it would be looked at oddly, I get that. Also, I would just like to point out that they are not constantly going around giving each other massages, or sleeping in the same bed or anything like that, but just that they would have no problem giving each other a shoulder massage or a hug, they are not scared off by such actions as though they are afraid there is romantic attacthment invovled. They know each other well enough to know that such is not at all the case and so feel no reason to freak out about it. They are also confident enough in their own manliness that they don’t feel any need to “prove” it to the world by avoiding any situation that could be seen to make them less manly. Yeah, its not how most men interact or would ever interact, but I really don’t see why it would ever be immoral. It isn’t done because of cultural reasons, not because of moral reasons.

that’s your experience and I believe you.

I also point out that as a man gets older he grows into and out of friendships depending on where he is in life. for me, college, professional school, service days, career, family, extended family, hobbies, sports teams all brought new people in and out of life and some of those were very close friends, much closer than those in college which I remember mostly as boozy nonsense and misdemeanors.

as we get older, there’s no reason to “prove” anything because our lives speak for themselves.

but this much is certain, guys who hugged and gave out massages were not among any of those groups.

 

[thewanderer]

that’s your experience and I believe you.

I also point out that as a man gets older he grows into and out of friendships depending on where he is in life. for me, college, professional school, service days, career, family, extended family, hobbies, sports teams all brought new people in and out of life and some of those were very close friends, much closer than those in college which I remember mostly as boozy nonsense and misdemeanors.

as we get older, there’s no reason to “prove” anything because our lives speak for themselves.

but this much is certain, guys who hugged and gave out massages were not among any of those groups.

Yes, I don’t really expect it to be a common occurance, though I do think I should clarify that while people at my college drank, they did not drink as most people at college do. They did not go out to get drunk, and their exploits were hardly fuelled by booze and did not involve misdemeanors. I know you didn’t claim that that was a part of it all, but I just thought I would clarify, this situation was very different than most college experiences in many more ways than one.

 

[Fairwinds]

Yes, I don’t really expect it to be a common occurance, though I do think I should clarify that while people at my college drank, they did not drink as most people at college do. They did not go out to get drunk, and their exploits were hardly fuelled by booze and did not involve misdemeanors. I know you didn’t claim that that was a part of it all, but I just thought I would clarify, this situation was very different than most college experiences in many more ways than one.

the statute of limitations has long passed. I was indulging in fond and fading memories of college.

I suggest they will not be the same men in 10 years, in all likelihood, they’ll be better men and won’t be giving anyone but their wives massages and hugs.

 

[Joe_5859]

(emphasis added)

college is an artificial, odd, sheltered time of life, its not a good analog for the regular world. at least in my fairly ordinary life, I don’t know of any group of men (except for gays) in which someone who likes embracing other men and giving massages (don’t want to speculate about what “etc” might mean) would be welcome or that behavior tolerated. most of us view those acts (or rather, attempted acts) as “get the bleep away from me” kind of gay.

I’d be interested in any counter examples from post-collegiate men reading this thread.

I’m a post-collegiate man, and I hug my guy friends. But they have mostly been my friends since my college days. I’ve never given another guy a massage, though. I cannot quite disconnect massages from…something else…

In my case, most of the guy-hugging is with other Catholic guys. Maybe it’s the shared faith that makes it less “weird.”

 

[Fairwinds]

I’m a post-collegiate man, and I hug my guy friends. But they have mostly been my friends since my college days. I’ve never given another guy a massage, though. I cannot quite disconnect massages from…something else…

In my case, most of the guy-hugging is with other Catholic guys. Maybe it’s the shared faith that makes it less “weird.”

thanks, that makes sense, doesn’t sound weird.

 

[CaptFun]

Married men with SSA - Should we be publicly open about it?

No.

Or yes if you were helping others to keep doing the right thing, overcoming the temptations, and being true to your committed to spouse faithfully.

In general I agree with you though, Bookcat. What’s more I don’t think it is good to identify oneself so completely WITH a sin*. As if THIS is my identity! Outranking all else versus “I have this problem I’m dealing with and trying to put behind me or ignore …”.

“Being open about it …” might cause others embarrassment, and an array of unnecessary problems unthought of until they become clear (and sometimes per reputation, irreversible).

Even taking the morality of the “act desired” out of the equation … and the fact that
in some circles it is considered socially acceptable (unto “courageous”?) to “come out” …
it is knowledge that could hurt one professionally (e.g. he kept that secret for so long … what else don’t we know about him?) or socially.

Spiritually? We Catholics have private confessions for a reason. “Attraction” is not even a sin in itself unless indulged by the will sinfully. Even the act can be forgiven (though that involves another in the sin and becomes more serious).

Here I am commenting (again) on a subject that gets way too much attention these days.

I do hope that those with this problem (and all people with all problems!) receive good counsel from the Holy Spirit - which may come through people HERE as well.

As per public openness in the case of a married man? It would be about the same as
OPPOSITE Sex Attraction actually in many ways. “I feel this way about other women … should I be open and tell my wife … everybody?” < Bookcat’s “No” suggestion looks mighty wise here does it not?

And my qualifier that YES you might share that in special circumstances - as in to help other people who have that problem overcome the problem (and remembering that in this stated case above, the spouse already knew of the problem) –
would be an exception to the rule of “No”!

** Alcoholics Anonymous might be an exception to THAT rule … as they’ve had stunning results in helping people and insist upon an admission of the “sin” when people address the group as in “Hello, I’m Joe … and I’m an Alcoholic …” even after one has achieved years of sobriety. Understood is “I am an Alcoholic who is trying to overcome my destructive weakness …” *

 

[Prodigal_Son]

As per public openness in the case of a married man? It would be about the same as
OPPOSITE Sex Attraction actually in many ways. “I feel this way about other women … should I be open and tell my wife … everybody?” < Bookcat’s “No” suggestion looks mighty wise here does it not?

I don’t think so. When my wife told me that she sometimes experiences attraction to another man, two things happened: (1) I was freed from a suspicion. I had suspected that she had dealt with attraction to a particular brother, and her talking to me about it – she didn’t tell me who, but I guessed it – increased my trust in her. Her hiding it might have made the very subtle signals I saw increase my suspicion, and pull my wife and I apart. (2) I felt less alone. As is obvious from this thread, I have dealt with sexual temptation, but I really kind of felt like my wife never did. Her openness was freeing.

Wives already know their men feel attraction to other people. Why pretend like they don’t? I mean, sure, it’s not a regular topic of conversation. But there are times of particular intimacy in a marriage, where such a revelation makes a lot of sense.

 

[LaSainte]

I hang out with my wife, among others. These things are relatively normal around here. Certainly not childish.

A simple shoulder massage, while sitting? That’s really so foreign to you?

(1) I’ve never huddled up with other men to keep warm. That would be awkward, in this culture.
(2) Perhaps most men don’t have this need because the need has been met. Or because the need was never met, so they were never aware of it. My father was extremely affectionate, and then he was gone. It seems a normal response to have a big empty space where that affection once was.

That’s not the whole story. Men are not capable of suddenly *deciding *to find other men attractive; that’s not how it works.

If something is specifically mentioned in John’s gospel, it’s significant in some way. (Ask John scholars). This is the “disciple that Jesus loved” and this is a case of Jesus showing that love. Now the point is not that physical affection should be shown in that way, in our day and age. But there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with “snuggle time” between grown men; it’s culturally encoded that this is taboo, in our time.

(1) You likely wouldn’t know if he had struggled. SSA men are very good at hiding. Not that I’m saying he does.
(2) There’s a logical fallacy here. Simply because A causes B under certain conditions does not mean that A always causes B. I’m not saying that intimacy issues cause SSA as a rule. I’m saying that they contribute. Moreover, real intimacy can provide healing (though I agree that this process could be problematic).
(3) Perhaps there is something about certain boys that causes them to develop SSA in situations like this. Other boys, that don’t have the same innate predispositions, don’t develop SSA.

I don’t know how old you are or where you are from, but women in their 30s with kids generally don’t sit around braiding each other’s hair and giving each other massages. That kind of behavior is usually relegated to college-aged girls at the most. It would be really weird if we had a couple over and I just said “Hey Sarah, you look a little tense. Why don’t you come on over and let me massage your shoulders?”

And although your response to the loss of your dad was to be attracted to men sexually, the fact that you say that this is “normal” seems a little far-fetched. I’m pretty sure by the way that my brother didn’t have this same experience. We used to find quite a bit of porn on his computer, none of it gay.

And I am quite sure that it was significant that John was right next to Jesus and lounging against Him. I think they probably had a paternal-filial relationship, especially in light of the fact that he sort of had Mary adopt him when He died.

I just find it really hard to believe that men need guy-on-guy snuggle time as a rule, and info think you romanticize something that is in no way the norm. A hug, a pat on the back, wrestling around, a sincere talk-these are normal expressions of male companionship and intimacy AFTER puberty. Before puberty of course, boys are very affectionate and snuggly, but usually with their mothers, not other boys or men. Girls are the opposite, being particularly affectionate with their fathers. Freud calls it Oedipus/Electra. As pre-pubescent children, we model the future relationship we will have with our spouse on the parent of the opposite sex. I’m not sure where your SSA falls into this, but I would think that there is a lot more to it than losing your dad at a young age. You did after all have a brother, correct? Does he have the same issue?

Maybe the part of you that says you are terrified about everyone finding out about this just wants to get it over with and be totally open about it, but I’m not sure that is the best reason to “come out”. Besides, how on EARTH would anyone who is not your very close friend or family member find out anyway unless you told them or unless you go around publicly ogeling other men?

 

[Boundless]

I’m sorry, but my sisters are totally willing to comb my hair, give me massages, or paint my nails. Especially one of them, and she also sits on my lap and pulls my arms around her just for the sake of it, or will hug me quite frequently etc etc, and I am in my mid-twenties and she is in college. This kind of showing of affection is definitely not something that is just for 10 year olds. As for the claim without any real reason that such things are wrong between men, I’m sorry but that is just false. We know that such actions can occur without any romance involved. So why would they be wrong? (ie immoral). I know they would be unusual to see, they might even make one uncomfortable, but immoral? Nope, not seeing how. In fact, I knew some guys at college (very catholic guys, one of whom is now happily married with a kid) who would engage in such behaviour, giving each other massages etc. from time to time. I just don’t see what could possibly be immoral about such behaviour so long as there is nothing romantic underlying it.

I want to thank you, thewanderer, not only for your honesty about what kinds of affection you and your sisters are willing to share, but for your lack of a double standard about whether or not this sort of affectionate gesture and comfort can be okay between males as well as females. I also really appreciate your giving due and emphatic recognition to the fact that “uncomfortable for some/many people” does not make it immoral. Because, especially among those who recognize that such behavior is more readily acceptable among women (which not everyone experiences or recognizes, admittedly), the only reason I’ve seen for why it’s not okay for men despite being okay for women boils down to some variation of “because many men and observers are often more uncomfortable with that than if it were women, and most men don’t seem to need it anyway.” As you point out, that is not a good basis for determining whether something is inherently immoral.

Thanks!

 

[Fairwinds]

…I just find it really hard to believe that men need guy-on-guy snuggle time as a rule, and info think you romanticize something that is in no way the norm.

this is correct. I would destroy any guy who tried that. that is not a euphemism.

 

[Boundless]

this is correct. I would destroy any guy who tried that. that is not a euphemism.

Well that escalated quickly, straight past the hard shove and “Get off of me!” response, straight past even the “We’re not friends anymore and don’t talk to me!” response, and straight to the destroying. Forget “turning the other cheek” if your neighbor smacks you, apparently if your neighbor even so much as snuggles you (even without any explicit proposition that he wants more) that’s cause enough to get straight to the destroying!

That might be a common attitude among modern men, especially in western cultures these days, but not only do you not speak for all men and definitely not for all cultures, you certainly don’t represent a Christian response. Gee, I’m getting a mental image now of Jesus “destroying” Judas, but not for betraying Him, mind you, not for the grave offense of helping to murder God Incarnate, but for the evidently far worse offense of daring to kiss him on the cheek!

And poor John the Beloved–true, he may or may not for the sake of argument have only been a young teen looking at Jesus as a father figure (which I don’t buy as the sole justification for their affection, but let’s grant that for the moment), but even if that’s the case, surely if a grown man snuggling with you warrants “destruction” then even a young adolescent laying his head on your chest would warrant a minor “thumping,” no? I must have missed that particular passage of scripture. Or does the proper response immediately go from “acceptance” straight to the “destroying” the moment an adolescent becomes an adult?

Seriously, though, I hope that despite your “not a euphemism” emphasis you were speaking in hyperbole after all, because there is cause for serious concern if you can’t think of some appropriate response to unwanted affection (regardless of from whom) which would be a great deal more peaceful and civil than “destroying.”

 

[LaSainte]

I want to thank you, thewanderer, not only for your honesty about what kinds of affection you and your sisters are willing to share, but for your lack of a double standard about whether or not this sort of affectionate gesture and comfort can be okay between males as well as females. I also really appreciate your giving due and emphatic recognition to the fact that “uncomfortable for some/many people” does not make it immoral. Because, especially among those who recognize that such behavior is more readily acceptable among women (which not everyone experiences or recognizes, admittedly), the only reason I’ve seen for why it’s not okay for men despite being okay for women boils down to some variation of “because many men and observers are often more uncomfortable with that than if it were women, and most men don’t seem to need it anyway.” As you point out, that is not a good basis for determining whether something is inherently immoral.

Thanks!

Also, I never said that guys showing affection by snuggling was immoral, just…weird.

 

[LaSainte]

this is correct. I would destroy any guy who tried that. that is not a euphemism.

Well, that seems a tad excessive anyway.

 

[Boundless]

Also, I never said that guys showing affection by snuggling was immoral, just…weird.

Fair enough; I don’t agree on a universal basis, but in our culture it IS weird, in the sense of “highly uncommon/unusual/etc,” so even if I honestly believe there are cultures and time periods where this was not all that “weird”, I can completely agree that, by the technical sense of the word, it’s weird in the modern West. I may not believe that the reasons for its being so rare, and therefore regarded as weird, are justified, but I can’t deny that it is so regarded. You agree that weird doesn’t equal immoral, so we’ve no qualms there.

But actually, that post wouldn’t have applied to you so much anyway, since in your own experience and opinion it’s just as weird (or nearly so) for women, with few exceptions, while my post was regarding those who even acknowledge that women can be highly affectionate with each other while somehow finding it wrong for men to be so. I was thanking thewanderer for not accepting that double standard, and since you think such affection would be pretty weird between women as well as men, you’re not all that guilty of such a double standard in the first place, regardless of whether or not I perfectly agree with your overall opinion in this matter.

Well, that seems a tad excessive anyway.

On that, on the other hand, I think we agree 100%!