Married men with SSA - Should we be publicly open about it?

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Oh that’s completely understandable. We are creatures of our culture. Despite actually having had and enjoyed the opportunity for such closeness in recent times, I myself still feel a bit weird at the prospect or reality of such close affection with another man, but like yourself I realize it’s cultural. There’s just too much evidence that in other cultures and times, some of them very Christian, it’s not (or wasn’t) weird at all, at least not excessively so. Logic leads me to believe that, whatever discomforts I personally may feel with it when a real opportunity actually presents itself in a concrete way (despite feeling happy about it at the same time, there is discomfort too), there is simply no reasonable basis for thinking it’s inherently wrong. Even if I personally were to decide that the discomfort combined with the SSA meant I should tone it down, that’s not a basis for deciding it would be inherently immoral as a general rule. So even though I feel that I crave such a thing on one hand, I’m actually in the exact same boat as you with being a product of my culture and feeling a weird about it. 🙂
Gestures and actions have certain meanings, and we are not in control of these meanings, to some degree: our cultural “language” determines them. I wish we were in control of them, but we’re not. If an innocent child gives me the finger, it does not matter that I understand there is not malice there; I feel aggression directed toward me. Similarly, if a man were to play with my feet under the table, I would “hear” him saying “I am sexually interested in you.” I think it is very difficult to reprogram ourselves about these things.

Nevertheless, it would be good if we could. The other day my big brother came over, stood behind me, and rubbed my shoulder for a minute. I “heard” him saying that he loved me, with that gesture. But I had a hard time hearing it for what it was. I just wanted him to go away, frankly, even though I recognize that I have a need for such physical affection.

Perhaps we don’t know to hear “I love you” any way but sexually. 🤷

I mean, sure, family members tell me “I love you” all the time, but it’s as an afterthought, at the end of a conversation. It’s just a throwaway line, in some ways. If my brother were to stop me, look me in the eyes, and say “I love you”, I would want to disappear. But I need that love. How do we teach a culture to remember the difference between *philia *and eros? Or rather, how do we come to remember what *philia *love is, in relationships between men? :confused:
 
Gestures and actions have certain meanings, and we are not in control of these meanings, to some degree: our cultural “language” determines them. I wish we were in control of them, but we’re not. If an innocent child gives me the finger, it does not matter that I understand there is not malice there; I feel aggression directed toward me. Similarly, if a man were to play with my feet under the table, I would “hear” him saying “I am sexually interested in you.” I think it is very difficult to reprogram ourselves about these things.

Nevertheless, it would be good if we could. The other day my big brother came over, stood behind me, and rubbed my shoulder for a minute. I “heard” him saying that he loved me, with that gesture. But I had a hard time hearing it for what it was. I just wanted him to go away, frankly, even though I recognize that I have a need for such physical affection.

Perhaps we don’t know to hear “I love you” any way but sexually. 🤷

I mean, sure, family members tell me “I love you” all the time, but it’s as an afterthought, at the end of a conversation. It’s just a throwaway line, in some ways. If my brother were to stop me, look me in the eyes, and say “I love you”, I would want to disappear. But I need that love. How do we teach a culture to remember the difference between *philia *and eros? Or rather, how do we come to remember what *philia *love is, in relationships between men? :confused:
I would say that Philia among men isn’t actually completely lost, even for those who do not physically show affection. It is just shown in different ways, in fact, sometimes even in a wrestling match, kind of the opposite of a hug ;). There are definitely men today who still know how to have deep phillia based friendships with other men even if they aren’t using typical physical signs of affection.
 
I would say that Philia among men isn’t actually completely lost, even for those who do not physically show affection. It is just shown in different ways, in fact, sometimes even in a wrestling match, kind of the opposite of a hug ;). There are definitely men today who still know how to have deep phillia based friendships with other men even if they aren’t using typical physical signs of affection.
No, I think that’s right, but I think that men with SSA feel excluded from many of these ways. Notice that the first example you gave is wrestling. Now try to imagine a teenage boy with SSA joining the wrestling team. This would probably be either (a) a serious challenge, (b) the near occasion of sin, or (c) really, really awkward. SSA guys often don’t feel comfortable around jocular talk and the like, sometimes because they have been deliberately excluded from such camaraderie at some point.

Actually, now that I think of it, this is probably why I withdrew from team sports as a kid, even though I was – and still am – rather talented at sports. I didn’t speak the language.

Another way of putting this: there are rituals of philia between men (or rather, of the physical aspect of philia). But some boys aren’t ever introduced to these rituals.

I wasn’t. I remember vividly as an 18-year-old, when I was at a camp, that some other guy in the bathroom tried to start a good-natured conversation with me, while we were both in a state of partial undress, perhaps brushing our teeth or some such thing. I literally could not understand what was going on. In my world, you never talked in a public restroom. I felt like there was some mysterious world where men were comfortable with such things, but I was forever on the outside. I didn’t have a father to show me the way in. 😦

Look around our culture now, and see all the fatherless boys. Who is there to initiate them into this mysterious world of affectionate manhood?
 
If you were a gay or lesbian inclined person growing up in the world, do you think you would feel more or less empowered if you were aware of devout people with SSA that conformed to God’s law, or if you had no idea?

I have no idea how silence is suppose to be even remotely constructive.
 
the boyscouts?
If your mother puts you in it, and the scoutmaster takes a fatherly interest in you, I suppose. But those are a lot of "if"s.

Me, I was in cub scouts for a year, didn’t feel comfortable, and didn’t stay on.
 
If you were a gay or lesbian inclined person growing up in the world, do you think you would feel more or less empowered if you were aware of devout people with SSA that conformed to God’s law, or if you had no idea?

I have no idea how silence is suppose to be even remotely constructive.
And I have not seen *anyone *in this discussion claim that it is constructive, interestingly enough. But I have seen lots of people saying that openness will harm my kids.

Suppose I concede that, at least to some degree. What about other people’s kids – namely, the ones with SSA? Who’s looking out for them? :confused:
 
I think the idea that gayness in general would be harmful to other people is outdated from some people’s superstition that homosexuality is completely a choice and not (to a large degree) inborn. Therefore if there’s a gay person around their children, their children might magically turn gay.

I would be 100% comfortable with a gay person that conforms to God’s law hanging around my (future) family. The reason is simple: heterosexual behavior is also sinful outside of the very specific context of marriage. So what matters to me is whether or not the person is obeying God. Their particular disposition is pretty much irrelevant. God says “be holy for I am holy”, not “be heterosexual for I am heterosexual”. Obeying God is what matters.

Of course, I’m not saying people should walk around with an “I’m Gay” light-up banner on their head, but the point is that I don’t think people with SSA should refuse to talk about it. That would be harmful, for the same reason it would be harmful if alcoholics never talked about alcoholism, or why it would be harmful for heterosexuals never to talk about their own struggles. We’re living in a technological version of the ancient Greco-Roman world, and the absolute last thing we need is for people not to help and encourage each other.
 
churchmilitant.tv/premium/index.php?vidID=vort-2013-06-13

Prodigal_Son,

I know that this is only slightly relevant here, but Michael Voris did a beautiful video talking about the cross of SSA and faithful Catholics. He introduced the idea of a victim soul, and suggested that the faithful Catholic suffering with SSA inclinations is especially loved by God, and that their heavier cross was selected for them with tender care (a very Salesian idea, actually). Anyway, I thought you might like this video. Let me know what you think! God bless.
I just got around to watching this, and I definitely appreciate it. Thanks!
 
…Similarly, if a man were to play with my feet under the table, I would “hear” him saying “I am sexually interested in you.” I think it is very difficult to reprogram ourselves about these things…
do you find this happening often?
 
do you find this happening often?
Ha!

No, of course not. I was trying to come up with a random example, and it got a bit overly random. And I solemnly assure you, if you come over to my house, I will not play footsies with you. I value my non-destroyedness.
 
I would say that Philia among men isn’t actually completely lost, even for those who do not physically show affection. It is just shown in different ways
Another way of putting this: there are rituals of philia between men (or rather, of the physical aspect of philia). But some boys aren’t ever introduced to these rituals.

I wasn’t. I remember …] at a camp, that some other guy in the bathroom tried to start a good-natured conversation with me, while we were both in a state of partial undress, perhaps brushing our teeth or some such thing. I literally could not understand what was going on. In my world, you never talked in a public restroom. I felt like there was some mysterious world where men were comfortable with such things, but I was forever on the outside. I didn’t have a father to show me the way in. 😦
This all stirs a lot of feelings and thoughts. I admit, I’ve always wanted to be able to be just “one of the guys”, but I’ve never felt quite like one. At times, for example, other guys would wrestle when I was younger–shirts off to make it harder for the opponent to get a good grip–and although I was invited to join in, I found that 1) I was afraid that I might have a physical reaction to it and be gravely embarrassed, but more likely than that 2) somehow I’d feel that I was kidding myself, that no one would really believe I, of all people, belonged in that situation. My own self doubt ruined me. I could’ve proven, over time, that I was “one of the guys,” but I missed my chance there.

More recently, I’ve joined the gym, though, and I’ve been changing in the locker rooms and even using the shower. The most amazing thing to me has been how natural this has felt, and I haven’t found myself “tempted” or overly awkward. The other day, a guy struck up a conversation with me as we were both changing clothes by the lockers, just randomly introduced himself and made idle but relevant chatter, but in a deliberate way as if he was making an effort to be friendly. It felt natural, and I felt somehow validated as a man I have to admit. As though I was man enough that this fellow man didn’t find it awkward or weird to talk to me as we were both, at various points in the conversation, in a degree of undress, because after all we were both men so there was nothing to feel awkward about. It wasn’t erotic. It wasn’t “tempting.” It was just…natural. So too it has been natural even being totally undressed on the way to the shower in the locker room, as other guys have been too: It hasn’t been “awkward” nor have I found myself involuntarily “excited.”

I think that’s the thing I’ve missed out on the most. Feeling “natural” around other guys in typically “guy” activities and contexts. Sports, locker rooms (especially showers), being casually shirtless while playing a sport or working out outdoors, these and more are things I watched (or heard of) my fellow guys do without awkwardness on their part, feeling natural, unafraid of physical signs of arousal making them seem “gay” and comfortable in their own skin and masculinity. They could also share certain affections–a friendly arm around the shoulder or neck (not cuddling, just like you might do for a picture), a pat on the back, casually coming into physical contact just by being in close proximity to one another and not feel awkward nor have anything “more” awakened. And I craved all that, but felt that I could never have it. I’m just having the first signs, since joining the gym, that I can be “one of the guys” too. It’s exhilarating.

Yet it’s also not something I anticipate to be some sort of “cure” for the SSA. I fear I will still always feel that there’s a “difference” between me and “normal” guys. Even if I ever find that the temptations are no longer acute, there will always be the knowledge that I’m prone to SSA and “normal” guys aren’t, that I find the male form to be aesthetically pleasing and fascinating to look at and “normal” guys don’t, that I am at risk for sexualizing guys and “normal” guys aren’t. These things will always give me some sense of isolation from my fellow males who do not so struggle. I’ll feel an “inferiority” complex toward them, I fear. Until the day, which may never come, when a man can reveal his SSA but still have men who don’t struggle with it accept him as their equal in masculinity, I fear this inferiority complex will remain for most men with this cross…because just hiding it will still leave him prone to doubting they’d accept him as an equal if they DID know. 😦

Likewise, I don’t think that this will make the desire for (platonic) affection, beyond the typical male norms in our culture, disappear, though it may dissipate it a little: I do believe that certain men, throughout history and not all by any means with SSA, simply do have higher needs for more overt forms of affections than other men, and the pity is that in our culture even if this wasn’t looked at as outright gay it’s looked at as “too soft” or “girly.” Because that means that even this basic need, which predated my SSA (I do remember a time when I would have almost puked at the thought of sexual relations with another guy, yet this need was already there), is a source of me feeling “isolated” from other guys who don’t share it. Would that I lived in an age of Abraham Lincolns and Joshua Speeds, of Davids and Jonathans, where these things, though it’s not as if it was every man’s cup of tea, were still seen as within the realm of masculinity, so that I wouldn’t feel that my needs here somehow “separated” me from “normal” guys; because in that sort of culture, even if it wasn’t their personal preference, nor would knowing it was mine “weird them out” or make them see me as less of a man. If only…

Alas, I just have to take one step at a time. By God’s Grace, I hope I’ll find a balance someday.
 
Gestures and actions have certain meanings, and we are not in control of these meanings, to some degree: our cultural “language” determines them. I wish we were in control of them, but we’re not. If an innocent child gives me the finger, it does not matter that I understand there is not malice there; I feel aggression directed toward me. Similarly, if a man were to play with my feet under the table, I would “hear” him saying “I am sexually interested in you.” I think it is very difficult to reprogram ourselves about these things.

Nevertheless, it would be good if we could. The other day my big brother came over, stood behind me, and rubbed my shoulder for a minute. I “heard” him saying that he loved me, with that gesture. But I had a hard time hearing it for what it was. I just wanted him to go away, frankly, even though I recognize that I have a need for such physical affection.

Perhaps we don’t know to hear “I love you” any way but sexually. 🤷

I mean, sure, family members tell me “I love you” all the time, but it’s as an afterthought, at the end of a conversation. It’s just a throwaway line, in some ways. If my brother were to stop me, look me in the eyes, and say “I love you”, I would want to disappear. But I need that love. How do we teach a culture to remember the difference between *philia *and eros? Or rather, how do we come to remember what *philia *love is, in relationships between men? :confused:
Now this is starting to make more sense to me. If you perceive or construe sexual undertones whenever anyone looks at you, the real you, when you are vulnerable, and says “I love you”, even when signs say this is filial love, it would make sense in the context of SSA. But this is sad, because people WILL love you, Prodigal Son, and they will want or need to communicate that through affectionate contact. I see men do this in culturally-appropriate ways all the time. Patting each other on the back and then leaving their hand on each other’s shoulders, then pulling in for a bear hug. Touching each others forearms as they lean in to tell a joke or story. The force of the touch is usually rougher and more playful than how they would caress a child or their wife, but then they ARE grown men, and their whole bodies are tougher.
Also, anytime a person really needs a massage, they can go to a professional to get the therapeutic touch they need without sexual undertones. Massage therapists, in my experience, tend to be really great, compassionate people, who understand the healing power of human physical touch. It is a great way to meet that need! 👍 It is not very expensive for a neck and shoulder massage.
But I have told my friends that I love them. I have heard my husband and his friends say to each other “I love, you, man!”. People who are not married to each other will want to express their affection for each other in various ways, depending on the level of intimacy in the friendship. This is a good thing, and it need not be construed as sexual.
I personally am working on rewiring my brain to root out faulty patterns of thought in other areas. It is possible to retrain ourselves with healthy patterns of thought. The brain is incredibly plastic. I suggest, humbly, that you might feel happier if you tried to retrain your brain to allow you to give and receive affection and expressions of filial love without fearing sexual undertones. Now maybe you are already doing this, I do not know. Either way, thanks for reading. 🙂
 
Now this is starting to make more sense to me. If you perceive or construe sexual undertones whenever anyone looks at you, the real you, when you are vulnerable, and says “I love you”, even when signs say this is filial love, it would make sense in the context of SSA. But this is sad, because people WILL love you, Prodigal Son, and they will want or need to communicate that through affectionate contact. I see men do this in culturally-appropriate ways all the time. Patting each other on the back and then leaving their hand on each other’s shoulders, then pulling in for a bear hug. Touching each others forearms as they lean in to tell a joke or story.
I don’t see this all the time, myself. When I do see it, the “little boy inside me” says that these things are appropriate for other men, but not for me. I’m on the outside.

All these men who WILL love me, as you say, where are they?

(Even as I say this, I remember from my marriage: if you do not persistently remind your spouse of the way you experience love, you should not expect to get it. Communication matters. But do I often tell male friends that I need physical affection? No. And, frankly, I’m too ashamed to. I just can’t shake the thought that every desire of mine for a man’s touch is irredeemably perverse.)
 
I assure you, they would not rebuff me angrily. I don’t have friends like that. :rolleyes:
why are you pretending to roll your eyes? that’s not a charitable way of talking to people. in normal conversation, that’s dismissive and insulting. why is it less so here?
 
I don’t see this all the time, myself. When I do see it, the “little boy inside me” says that these things are appropriate for other men, but not for me. I’m on the outside.

All these men who WILL love me, as you say, where are they?

(Even as I say this, I remember from my marriage: if you do not persistently remind your spouse of the way you experience love, you should not expect to get it. Communication matters. But do I often tell male friends that I need physical affection? No. And, frankly, I’m too ashamed to. I just can’t shake the thought that every desire of mine for a man’s touch is irredeemably perverse.)
Yeah…um…that’s not going to go well. I can’t even imagine a heterosexual male getting that kind of statement or even the vibe from one of his friends. The immediate interpretation would be that you are making a gay pass at him.
 
Yeah…um…that’s not going to go well. I can’t even imagine a heterosexual male getting that kind of statement or even the vibe from one of his friends. The immediate interpretation would be that you are making a gay pass at him.
it is a gay pass and one way or the other, it would not end well.
 
Yeah…um…that’s not going to go well. I can’t even imagine a heterosexual male getting that kind of statement or even the vibe from one of his friends. The immediate interpretation would be that you are making a gay pass at him.
OK, you’re missing what I was saying. I guess I wasn’t being clear.

Many of my close friends already know about my SSA. They know that I’m going through a process of healing. If I talked to them about my need for affection, and how I didn’t get this as a child, and how I still have this need, they would not think it was a gay pass at them. They might not know what to do, or what to say, but they would not flee from me as if I were a mutant. They would be loving, even if they were uncomfortable.
 
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