Married Priests

[Hesychios]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

What follows is a partial list I referred to in posting #58. There are an awful lot of ways to look at this but my first impression is that Europe and North America are doing pretty good compared to the rest of the world when it comes to vocations.

Observe the comparison between Angola and Portugal, two countries of approximately equal Catholic population.

Review the entire list from the link on the other post and see if you don’t agree. I am truly interested to know where the abundance of priests are that are lurking outside of North America. Angola, Brazil and Mexico are so badly in need of priests that we should feel guilty about taking even one foreign priest that could be sent to those places instead.

In Christ Always,
Michael

Brazil
Number of Catholics is 147,386,000
Number of priests is 16,355

Ratio of priests to believers is 1: 9,011

Mexico
Number of Catholics is 122,191,000
Number of priests is 13,755

Ratio of priests to believers is 1: 8,883

Philipines
Number of Catholics is 73,605,000
Number of priests is 7,406

Ratio of priests to believers is 1: 9.939

U.S.A.
Number of Catholics is 63,188,000
Number of priests is 46,447

Ratio of priests to believers is 1: 1,360

Italy
Number of Catholics is 57,689,000
Number of priests is 51,295

Ratio of priests to believers is 1: 1,125

France
Number of Catholics is 45,345,000
Number of priests is 23,089

Ratio of priests to believers is 1: 1,964

Spain
Number of Catholics is 39,002,000
Number of priests is 26,505

Ratio of priests to believers is 1: 1,471

Colombia
Number of Catholics is 38,626,000
Number of priests is 7,866

Ratio of priests to believers is 1: 4,911

Poland
Number of Catholics is 34,573,000
Number of priests is 26,931

Ratio of priests to believers is 1: 1,284

Argentina
Number of Catholics is 33,389,000
Number of priests is 5,759

Ratio of priests to believers is 1: 5,798

Congo (Dem. Republic of)
Number of Catholics is 28,443,000
Number of priests is 3,773

Ratio of priests to believers is 1: 7,539

Nigeria
Number of Catholics is 16,853,000
Number of priests is 3,800

Ratio of priests to believers is 1: 4,435

India
Number of Catholics is 16,758,000
Number of priests is 19,040

Ratio of priests to believers is 1: 880

Uganda
Number of Catholics is 10,397,000
Number of priests is 1,569

Ratio of priests to believers is 1: 6,627

Angola
Number of Catholics is 9,519,000
Number of priests is 567

Ratio of priests to believers is 1: 16,788

Portugal
Number of Catholics is 9,343,000
Number of priests is 4,079

Ratio of priests to believers is 1: 2,291

Kenya
Number of Catholics is 7,141,000
Number of priests is 1,938

Ratio of priests to believers is 3,685

 

[hawkeye]

One argument I heard against married Priests is “pillow talk”
well it happened Samson, seriously what I mean is the Confessional.
What if his wife wanted to know what so & so had said in the Confessional, hypothetical, but you never know ?

 

[Funky_Cedars]

regarding the missionary status of catholic counties:

perhaps the reference is to recent ordiations, not just net priests.

 

[Hesychios]

Funky Cedars:

regarding the missionary status of catholic counties:

perhaps the reference is to recent ordiations, not just net priests.

I don’t deny that it is a possibility, there might be a spike in vocations somewhere, or even in many places, that cannot be reflected in the numbers I have posted.

So we need the statistics, what are the trends? Who knows what?

For example, has Kenya seen a fourfold increase in vocations over X many years? If so, what will that do to their priest to believer ration over X many years into the future? When will they have more priests than us in North America so that we can ask for some?

Where are the facts? That’s all I am asking.

I think the subject is rife with wishful thinking, unfortunately.

Michael

 

[Hesychios]

hawkeye:

One argument I heard against married Priests is “pillow talk”
well it happened Samson, seriously what I mean is the Confessional.
What if his wife wanted to know what so & so had said in the Confessional, hypothetical, but you never know ?

I agree!

One never knows.

But let’s look at it this way:

1- there have always been married priests in the church somewhere.

2- there has always been a Sacrament of confession in some form everywhere.

3- the suppression of the married priesthood in the Latin rite was not over pillow talk.

4- the priesthood is a vocation like no other, if we are to assume that they will talk about us, we might just as well assume they are already discussing us and our confessions.

I might have the same anxiety about it that you expressed, but the reality is that the problem originates in my head. I don’t know that a priest would betray the sanctity of the confessional, regardless of whom he lives with.

Michael

 

[BILL_BRADLEY]

The problem with most statistics is they are skewed with self reporting Catholics. I noted that the number of Catholics dropped when questions in another survey included going to Mass and frequency, the magisterium and revelation, and Humanae Vitae. It is logical to assume the number of vocations per capita would be larger in a country where evanglization is visibly present. Converted Catholics are on fire for the faith. They are too busy learning about the faith rather than crying about why they can’t use artificial birth control methods.

 

[Hesychios]

BILL BRADLEY:

The problem with most statistics is they are skewed with self reporting Catholics. I noted that the number of Catholics dropped when questions in another survey included going to Mass and frequency, the magisterium and revelation, and Humanae Vitae.

I agree, I would say the number of Catholics reported in the U.S.A. is WAY too high! Most people in the U.S.A. who claim to be Catholic probably don’t live like Catholics. If the number of actual priests reported from the list for the U.S.A. is anywhere near accurate, we are sitting pretty with plenty of priests for people who need them. Come to think of it, every time I see the line for confession I feel there are plenty of priests.

It is logical to assume the number of vocations per capita would be larger in a country where evanglization is visibly present. Converted Catholics are on fire for the faith. They are too busy learning about the faith rather than crying about why they can’t use artificial birth control methods.

This is a good example of what I was trying to say. I agree that converts are on fire for the faith (they put cradles to shame most of the time!) but you and I have NOTHING to base this assumption on. Nothing at all, but this optimism is making us think that we can count on an “on fire” third world to send conservative and devout missionaries and convert us all.

I don’t believe it, but I wish it were true.

It seems logical that they would have a superabundance of vocations, then when they do not show up here it seems logical to us that our liberal bishops don’t want them. :crying:

In reality it seems logical to me that those extra priests should be headed for Brazil.

Michael

 

[hawkeye]

Hesychios:

I agree!

One never knows.

But let’s look at it this way:

1- there have always been married priests in the church somewhere.

2- there has always been a Sacrament of confession in some form everywhere.

3- the suppression of the married priesthood in the Latin rite was not over pillow talk.

4- the priesthood is a vocation like no other, if we are to assume that they will talk about us, we might just as well assume they are already discussing us and our confessions.

I might have the same anxiety about it that you expressed, but the reality is that the problem originates in my head. I don’t know that a priest would betray the sanctity of the confessional, regardless of whom he lives with.

Michael

LIVES WITH ? I would hope they were at least married.

 

[Hesychios]

hawkeye:

LIVES WITH ? I would hope they were at least married.

Hello Hawkeye!

I hope you don’t want our monks to get married!

I guess I should be more careful about the terminology that I use. the terminology is loaded.

But on second thought, it makes perfect sense. In the U.S.A. at least ( I don’t know about Europe, Africa, etc.) priests assigned to parishes live together at the rectory. Sometimes they have priests with them not directly assigned to the parish, like foreign priests here to study. They live in community, even though we don’t think about it that way, so they do “live with” someone.

In the Abbey where I am an Oblate there are at least twenty priests that call it home. As a courtesy to the diocese they help out by saying Masses all over the county, but most of them are home at the Abbey by Compline, a few need to stay out overnight at rectories or in hotels but they normally live with the Priests and brothers at the Abbey.

Some pastors live alone, a solitary existence that makes them in reality urban hermits. They don’t technically live with anyone and their numbers are growing as more and more rectories are losing their third and second priests.

Then there are the married Roman Catholic priests. They have spouses! I don’t really know how many there are but I know there are more than 100, so I keep repeating that figure. In my area they are assigned to parishes but they do not live at the rectory.

Then there are the Eastern Catholic priests. Most of them are celibate! That’s right, most of the Eastern Catholic priests in the U.S.A. are celibate and live alone because Rome forced us to give up our option to marry before ordination. This was at the request of the Roman Catholic bishops who thought it would cause a problem for their own celibate priests. Since then the Roman Catholic bishops have accepted married priests from the protestant world (without causing a problem apparently) and we Eastern Catholics are still doing damage control.

In Christ Always,
Michael, that sinner

 

[hawkeye]

Hesychios are you a Priest ? if you are why don’t you say so.

 

[Hesychios]

hawkeye:

Hesychios are you a Priest ? if you are why don’t you say so.

My goodness! Why would you think I am a priest?!

Are you?

Michael,
Oblate of Saint Benedict

 

[hawkeye]

Hesychios:

My goodness! Why would you think I am a priest?!

Are you?

Michael,
Oblate of Saint Benedict

I was reading between the lines, and I thought you might be one, you said “Rome forced (us)”
Actually over here about 12 years ago I used to drive a taxi (for my sins) anyway I had to pick up a gentleman from a Hotel and bring him from my hometown Enniskillen to Sligo accross the border, well he had his casual attire on.
So along the way I asked him was he a Priest ? he seemed shocked, "yes I am he said, how did you know "? so that same feeling came over me this time too, sorry I’m wrong this time :crying:
I wonder though are there Priests looking in ?
Anyway I’m not a Priest, though the thought was in my head when I was younger, but I’m married now.:tiphat:

 

[Hesychios]

hawkeye:

I wonder though are there Priests looking in ?

I doubt it, probably too busy. Unless they would like a good laugh at our expense!

Anyway I’m not a Priest, though the thought was in my head when I was younger, but I’m married now.:tiphat:

Yessiree! me too! At least, well…I better not get too deep into that. There is a 3000 character limit you know

I had a calling to the priesthood when I was younger. In fact I wanted to go to Africa, long, long ago. I exchanged letters with a vocations director of a religious order, none other than the White Fathers. I certainly had no inclination to do pastoral work in the U.S.A., I wanted to go where I felt I would really be needed. I never thought the need would be so great here.

At that time in my life I was firmly convinced that the married life and the priesthood were mutually exclusive vocations. This is what I was told and I believed it. I had to choose and I chose a worldly life and the persuit of a bride!

This may shock you but I received absolutely no encouragement to discern a priestly vocation from close family or friends. None.

This in spite of the fact that my immigrant grandmother had once told me that I would be a priest, and I was noted for piety.

My own parents indirectly implied that people attracted to the religious life may have “issues” with sexuality. This was in the 1960’s and 1970’s when I was growing up, before the big scandals broke the news. They encouraged me to date, which in a Roman Catholic home is the equivalent to discouraging a priestly vocation.

The woman I married is gone.

Today I am part of a Byzantine Catholic parish, no more than 400 souls altogether. I volunteer for projects, sing and chant in three choirs, belong to the evangelization team and I am an Oblate of Saint Benedict associated with an RC Abbey 30 miles away.

Rome has decided that the Eastern Catholic churches are to return to their Traditions and restore all of the practices of our church. That is to say return to the Orthodox roots of the church in recognition of the terms of the original Union agreements which were violated often in the past.

I can see why, the Orthodox churches can point to us and say "you want us to unite with you so that you can do that to us?!?"

Anyway, I no longer see marriage and the priesthood as mutually exclusive vocations. I guess it shows.

In Christ,
Michael, that sinner

 

[Mike_C]

Well, you can contact Archbishop Stefan of Philadelphia. He’s looking for married men to fill his seminary in Washington, DC. so far, no takers. I can’t qualify because I’m not married and not rich.

 

[hawkeye]

Hesychios:

I doubt it, probably too busy. Unless they would like a good laugh at our expense!

Yessiree! me too! At least, well…I better not get too deep into that. There is a 3000 character limit you know

I had a calling to the priesthood when I was younger. In fact I wanted to go to Africa, long, long ago. I exchanged letters with a vocations director of a religious order, none other than the White Fathers. I certainly had no inclination to do pastoral work in the U.S.A., I wanted to go where I felt I would really be needed. I never thought the need would be so great here.

At that time in my life I was firmly convinced that the married life and the priesthood were mutually exclusive vocations. This is what I was told and I believed it. I had to choose and I chose a worldly life and the persuit of a bride!

This may shock you but I received absolutely no encouragement to discern a priestly vocation from close family or friends. None.

This in spite of the fact that my immigrant grandmother had once told me that I would be a priest, and I was noted for piety.

My own parents indirectly implied that people attracted to the religious life may have “issues” with sexuality. This was in the 1960’s and 1970’s when I was growing up, before the big scandals broke the news. They encouraged me to date, which in a Roman Catholic home is the equivalent to discouraging a priestly vocation.

The woman I married is gone.

Today I am part of a Byzantine Catholic parish, no more than 400 souls altogether. I volunteer for projects, sing and chant in three choirs, belong to the evangelization team and I am an Oblate of Saint Benedict associated with an RC Abbey 30 miles away.

Rome has decided that the Eastern Catholic churches are to return to their Traditions and restore all of the practices of our church. That is to say return to the Orthodox roots of the church in recognition of the terms of the original Union agreements which were violated often in the past.

I can see why, the Orthodox churches can point to us and say "you want us to unite with you so that you can do that to us?!?"

Anyway, I no longer see marriage and the priesthood as mutually exclusive vocations. I guess it shows.

In Christ,
Michael, that sinner

Mabe Grandmother was right I don’t know, God Bless, but I think you might be a priest, who knows, and don’t worry about the scandal, it’'s bad, but so was the flogging of Jesus.
Be one of those that wait at the foot of the CROSS.

 

[bengal_fan]

Thomas2:

I voted No. There should be one more category - “NO and it should not even be thought of!” It has nothing to do with the Pope, current, past, or future. If Jesus wanted a married priesthood, I think He would have married. But He didn’t, so we don’t!

Peace and all good,

Thomas2

i think a better line would be, “if Jesus wanted a married priesthood, he would have chosen married priests.” oh wait…he did! peter was married and it is speculated that most of the other apostles were also. i understand the thought behind the celibate priesthood but i don’t feel it should be necessary. it is not biblical or historical (even though early on it was encouraged, but it was not forced). and to the quote, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”…it is a little broke when there is a dire need and there have been so many “celibate” priests molesting children and fornicating with women of the congregation (one in my very own community). the majority of priests don’t do this but there is a problem that must be addressed and i think allowing married priests addresses it nicely. it is not a dogma and not binding, it is a discipline which can be changed at any time and should be (just like not eating meat on fridays, it is a good thing to fast, but to force some one takes away them giving it as a gift to God).

 

[Hesychios]

Mike C:

Well, you can contact Archbishop Stefan of Philadelphia. He’s looking for married men to fill his seminary in Washington, DC. so far, no takers. I can’t qualify because I’m not married and not rich.

I hear that!

Eastern Catholics usually have to pay their own way through seminary. A real hardship.

Then when you get that stipend from the little 400 person parish, you realize what it means to embrace poverty! :bigyikes:

I am probably too old and under-educated to pursue a vocation now.

Anyway, I think I’ll stick with the Pittsburgh Metropolia. I absolutely love my church.

Michael

 

[Lonevoice]

I don’t believe that the scandal had anything to do with celibacy or priestly marriage. I think it was based more in the erosion of morals that has occurred since the 60’s.

Having said that, I only have one thing left to say regarding the discipline of celibate, unmarried priests:

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[tee_eff_em]

bengal_fan:

and to the quote, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”…it is a little broke when there is a dire need and there have been so many “celibate” priests molesting children and fornicating with women of the congregation (one in my very own community). the majority of priests don’t do this but there is a problem that must be addressed and i think allowing married priests addresses it nicely.

…Because married men *never * molest children and are *always * faithful to their vows…!?

I think the statistics say otherwise.

 

[uxordepp]

T.A.Stobie:

One exception that could be allowed is for elderly married men who children have left the nest and they provided their own income might be allowed particularly in a order focused on providing the sacraments.

I feel that there is a large untouched source of talent among our retired Catholics that could be used to better serve the church. Many volunteer, but more could.

I believe these men are called Permanent Deacons?

Not all dioceses have them, but they can do anything but hear confessions and consecrate the Eucharist, if I’m not mistaken.

I agree that they are a largely untouched resource.

A permanent deacon may not remarry if his wife dies.

Jaye