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Zooey
Guest
Yup!
Martin Luther supported polygamy for political reasons.
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Martin Luther supported polygamy for political reasons.
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Contarini
Guest
Yes, he was certainly influenced by political considerations, but his broader theology of sexuality and marriage clearly allowed for this. That is arguably more troubling than if he simply acted inconsistently for pragmatic reasons, because it opens up questions about the basis for Protestant sexual morality that are relevant to contemporary issues–even though by and large Protestant practice in the 16th century was pretty strict, stricter than medieval practice in many ways (as was the practice of Tridentine Catholicism).
Edwin
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Angainor
Guest
Grrrr.
You can say it over and over, but that doesn’t make it true.
Name one person Luther told “It would be a good idea for you to marry more than one person,” or “I encourage you to marry more than one person.”
Just because I might not try to bind someone’s conscience against a practice doesn’t mean I necessarily support that practice.
I don’t support avoiding meat on Fridays, but I’m not going to stand up and say it is morally wrong if someone wants to avoid meat on Fridays.
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Angainor
Guest
Yes, and one question I brought up earlier is: what about people who become Christians from other cultures who allow polygamy? I don’t think those new Christians should be encouraged to divorce any of their spouses or anything of the sort.
I don’t think it brings up any other issues because western culture is pretty much closed to polygamy for the moment. The way things are going, there is a good chance that would change, and then those questions would have to be addressed.
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Ginger2
Guest
Luther condemned the practice of taking more than one wife when he said, “…if anyone thereafter should practice bigamy, let the Devil give him a bath in the abyss of hell.”?
St. Augustine doesn’t condemn polygamy. In fact he suggests it was a better way: " who reads with careful attention what use they made of their wives, at a time when also it was allowed one man to have several, whom he had with more chastity, than any now has his one wife," - The Good of Marriage 15
So, while Luther obviously allowed for dispensation under certain circumstances, St Augustine also acknowledges certain dispensations to take more than one wife.
King Louis XII, who stood now in need of two papal favours. … in order to retain Brittany, it was essential that he should marry his deceased cousin’s widow, Queen Anne. No blame attaches to Alexander for issuing the desired decree annulling the King’s marriage or for granting him a dispensation from the impediment of affinity. The commission of investigation appointed by him established the two fundamental facts that the marriage with Jane was invalid, from lack of consent, and that it never had been consummated.
But Augustine, in The Good of Marriage ch 15 says a marriage doesn’t have to be consummated to be valid.
The bigger picture here is that Alexander dissolved a marriage for political reasons. :tsktsk:
St. Augustine doesn’t condemn polygamy. In fact he suggests it was a better way: " who reads with careful attention what use they made of their wives, at a time when also it was allowed one man to have several, whom he had with more chastity, than any now has his one wife," - The Good of Marriage 15
So, while Luther obviously allowed for dispensation under certain circumstances, St Augustine also acknowledges certain dispensations to take more than one wife.
King Louis XII, who stood now in need of two papal favours. … in order to retain Brittany, it was essential that he should marry his deceased cousin’s widow, Queen Anne. No blame attaches to Alexander for issuing the desired decree annulling the King’s marriage or for granting him a dispensation from the impediment of affinity. The commission of investigation appointed by him established the two fundamental facts that the marriage with Jane was invalid, from lack of consent, and that it never had been consummated.
But Augustine, in The Good of Marriage ch 15 says a marriage doesn’t have to be consummated to be valid.
The bigger picture here is that Alexander dissolved a marriage for political reasons. :tsktsk:
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GKC
Guest
My, it’s strange to get into this topic, when Henry isn’t in the post/thread.
The annulment/impediment/dispensation system, as it was set up in Louis XII’s day, as in Henry VIII’s day, and until Trent, at least, was designed to do two things simultaneously: protect matrimony as a sacrament, under the Church’s control, and permit the making and breaking of dynastic marriages for reasons of state. It was commonplace; happened all the time. The net of impediments; of consanguinity, affinity, justice of public honesty, and a list of others, was so constructed that a decree of nullity could be granted, if required, under most circumstances. The system grew so unwieldy that Trent took it in hand and reformed it. But it served a purpose in those days.
GKC
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Auriel
Guest
Man, twenty two pages of posts here! YIKES!!! I keep getting interested in the long ones! LOL Forgive me of I do not read every page. But Luther was a bit of a meanie. Anyone ever read his book written in 1543 called “On the Jews and their lies” ? Here is an online link: humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm
Some in my own family are extremely racist. They liked to quote from that thing. Hitler quoted from it to in Mein Kampf. I admit, religion would not be the same today without Martin Luther but the man had some serious flaws. Here are a few quotes from his book:
Some in my own family are extremely racist. They liked to quote from that thing. Hitler quoted from it to in Mein Kampf. I admit, religion would not be the same today without Martin Luther but the man had some serious flaws. Here are a few quotes from his book:
I believe the Lutheran Church did issue a statement regarding his unfortunate views on the Jewish people, they of course do not stand behind their founders views in that regard. Luther had a horrible horrible temper when people disagreed with him IMHO.
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mgrfin
Guest
Still trying to beat on the Doctor of Grace, Ginger. Did he write this stuff when he was still a Manicheen, before his conversion? Before his Retractions?
You never give up on this saintly man, the Bishop of Hippo. What did he know, he was celibate.
peace
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Ginger2
Guest
Spanish Inquisition
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mgrfin
Guest
I checked my copy of Augustine’s letter on marriage, and could not find your reference that Augustine ‘favored’ “ratum et non-consummatum” marriages.
Nor could I find your reference to Augustine not condemning Polygamy.
Could you please provide your avid listeners with such references?
Thank you. Much appreciated.
peace
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fierysword1920
Guest
Everybody just cut it out already. I no longer care what Martin Luther said, didn’t say, did or didn’t do. He’s dead and gone forever ago and his foolishness affects me not, he can pay for his own lies. Lets get onto something else, or possibly better yet anybody who is not catholic need not even be here. You will not change any Catholics mind with protestantism, there is no evidence on this earth that supports protestantism as being superior or right in lieu of Catholicism and in fact Christianity would not exist if it were not for the Catholic church. So tell me please, what is the arguement about, is it still that someone has missinterpreted or misstranslated some obscure text about Mother Mary having sinned, or is it really about some who regret that they no longer are in the faith and they wish that they could come back and in reality could and should yet maybe it is their own pride and vanity holding them back.
Lets get this out in the open because this message board has been a waste of time for two weeks and I have waiting for something interesting to spring forth from all of this banter.
Lets get this out in the open because this message board has been a waste of time for two weeks and I have waiting for something interesting to spring forth from all of this banter.
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fierysword1920
Guest
You are correct, no people are perfect and God himself stated that whoever blesses you I will bless and whoever curses you I will curse, saying this in regard to the Jewish people.
Luther said all kinds of things like this and even after he used the peasant class of his era to help him overthrow catholic princes and kings, he promptly turned on them because he thought they had to much power and said that they were like a disease and should be exterminated like mad dogs.
Luther said all kinds of things like this and even after he used the peasant class of his era to help him overthrow catholic princes and kings, he promptly turned on them because he thought they had to much power and said that they were like a disease and should be exterminated like mad dogs.
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mgrfin
Guest
Points well made, and taken.
None of the Protestants visiting this thread is going to change anyone’s mind. They seem to be here to try to knock the good and saintly name of the Virgin Mary, and people like St. Augustine.
If you want to bring an uplifting conversation here, you can discuss the Doctor of Grace’s letter on marriage and the good things he had to say about it, not to try to find some thing like “he said non-consummated marriages were real marriages”. I doubt that he said it, and to get into an argument with a person of ill-will toward the Faith is hardly worth it.
This whole thread proves absolutely nothing. You are right. We know where Luther is and where he is coming from, and his desertion of the Faith did nothing for him. The pessimism of the religion he founded, and ‘the easy’ way to heaven by “faith only” is
not the teaching of Jesus Christ, St. Paul, or the Church throughout the centuries.
We should give thanks to God for the Salvation he has offered us through his Church.
peace
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mgrfin
Guest
The Catholic Church never taught that it was morally wrong to eat meat on Friday.
Grrrr.
You can say it over and over, but that doesn’t make it true.
Name one person Luther told “It would be a good idea for you to marry more than one person,” or “I encourage you to marry more than one person.”
Just because I might not try to bind someone’s conscience against a practice doesn’t mean I necessarily support that practice.
I don’t support avoiding meat on Fridays, but I’m not going to stand up and say it is morally wrong if someone wants to avoid meat on Fridays.
Fast and abstinence is part of the Precepts of the Church, and not intrinsically evil, or morally wrong.
peace
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fierysword1920
Guest
Hey it’s alright fin. I’m not upset at you I just think that protestants are wasting our time and theirs too. I also share your sentiments about the church doctors and truth they have given us through the Holy Spirit. I don’t give them any credence to their thought process that I can say a prayer or ONLY be baptised and then be saved for all time while doing very little in the meantime to secure my salvation.
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estesbob
Guest
I remember that! This is what you are talking about, isnt it?
http://mysite.freeserve.com/raindrop/images/5-picture3.jpg?0.5373133321451175
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estesbob
Guest
As opposed to the German Inquisition?
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Angainor
Guest
Great! Wonderful! Glad to hear it.
Now apply the same logic to polygamy. Polygamy is not intrinsically evil or morally wrong, but roughly equivalent to a “precept.”
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mgrfin
Guest
Oh, I know you are not upset with me.
I started off one of my responses to you: “Points well made and taken”.
Yes, the Protestants I have come across are wasting our time. You never know who you are talking to. “One person” may be a group of lutheran seminarians sending off their comments to bug us.
Be that as it may, I respond to whomever and whenever I feel the Catholic faith is wrongly attacked, and will continue to do so. An apologist, worth his salt, is supposed to do that. And the Protestants on this site know I can be unrelenting to arrive at the truth with them.
Peace
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mgrfin
Guest
You are wrong. Polygamy has never been an object of any “Precept” of the Church. Its prohibition has nver been ‘roughly equivalent to a precept’.
And, yes, I believe it is morally wrong, instrinsically evil. Just as I believe divorce is wrong, and bigamy, adultery and fornication.
Some martyrs in England gave up their heads because they believed that divorce was intrinsically evil, and would not support it.
As for polygamy, that is why we are upset with Luther for supporting it, and for political reasons.
Peace.
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