Martin Luther vs. The Bible

[sandusky]

Sandusky,

This is how it works:

1. Luther is dead.
2. Luther is hated.
3. Luther has been both dead and hated for a long enough time that a vast amount of slander and libel about him to have accumulated.
4. Many Catholics are more interested in indulging in *odium theologicum *than in dealing justly with him.

This is very immature. The inability to disagree with someone without misrepresenting, demonizing and torturing their words is the sign of a rather puerile approach to debate,

As with much ideological bigotry, it stems, in part, from a fear that ones adversary may somehow trick him into an error or (heaven forbid) agreement. This fear is, of course, a testament to their lack of faith, or rather the unworthiness of the objects, doctrines and ideas in which they have placed their faith.

No doubt.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

No doubt.

This is silly. Luther basically believed that faith alone, through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, could save a person. Only by Christ’s mercy are we saved. Once we are saved, there is little reason to boldly sin, because we are filled with grace.

But even the Catholic Church believes that all sins will be forgiven by the grace of Jesus, if we are contrite and ask for forgiveness. The point is - Jesus forgives, again and again and again. We are all sinners, whether we “boldly sin” or not, and only by the grace of God are we forgiven.

 

[JonNC]

=CHESTERTONRULES;4323127]
Luther did much damage to Christianity.

And he had considerable help from Pope Leo X, Tetzel and others, as the CCC clearly points out:

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269

I think it is fair to point out his rationale and motivations.

It is fair to point out, so long as the rationale and motivations you point out are factual, which yours are not.
What you are doing by this quote is inferring that Luther believed in OSAS, which is factually incorrect.

Augsburg Confession

Article XI: Of Confession.

1] Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches, although in confession 2] an enumeration of all sins is not necessary. For it is impossible according to the Psalm: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19, 12.

Why retain confession if one can sin freely?

Augburg Confession

Article XII: Of Repentance.

1] Of Repentance they teach that for those who have fallen after Baptism there is remission of sins whenever they are converted 2] and that the Church ought to impart absolution to those thus returning to repentance. Now, repentance consists properly of these 3] two parts: One is contrition, that is, 4] terrors smiting the conscience through the knowledge of sin; the other is faith, which is born of 5] the Gospel, or of absolution, and believes that for Christ’s sake, sins are forgiven, comforts 6] the conscience, and delivers it from terrors. Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruits of repentance.

7] They condemn the Anabaptists, who deny that those once justified can lose the Holy Ghost. Also those who contend that some may attain to such 8] perfection in this life that they cannot sin.

What is the need of repentance if one can sin freely?

The Small Catechism

Christian Questions with Their Answers

Prepared by Dr. Martin Luther for those who intend to go to the Sacrament

[The “Christian Questions with Their Answers,” designating Luther as the author, first appeared in an edition of the Small Catechism in 1551, five years after Luther’s death].

After confession and instruction in the Ten Commandments, the Creed, the Lord’s Prayer, and the Sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper, the pastor may ask, or Christians may ask themselves these questions:

1. Do you believe that you are a sinner?
   Yes, I believe it. I am a sinner.

1. How do you know this?
   From the Ten Commandments, which I have not kept.

1. Are you sorry for your sins?
   Yes, I am sorry that I have sinned against God.

**4. What have you deserved from God because of your sins?
His wrath and displeasure, temporal death, and eternal damnation. See Romans 6:21,23. **

1. Do you hope to be saved?
   Yes, that is my hope.

1. In whom then do you trust?
   In my dear Lord Jesus Christ.

You ask if Luther believed if we can be separated from God because of our sins, there is your answer. It is clear concise, and undeniable: We deserve, because of our sins, God’s wrath and displeasure, temporal death, and eternal damnation.

Jon

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

A quote from sandusky’s links,

“The Catholic scholar Jared Wicks has correctly pointed out, ‘One needs to be on the lookout for Luther’s rhetorical flights, and to be judicious in discriminating between the substance of his message and the linguistic extremes with which he sometimes made his points’”

If you will CHESTERTONRULES, try to set aside you feelings about Luther for the moment, muster up all the charity you can, and try to honestly answer the question, “What was the main point Luther was trying to get across with this statement?” here’s the full statement for a little more context,

“If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.”

As a warm-up, perhaps consider Luke 14:23 and reflect on whether the literal statement made by Jesus in that verse was the point He was trying to get across.

There is nothing there that changes the meaning of Luther’s quote.

In fact, if you truly belief in salvation by faith alone, then his quote makes complete sense.

I think his quote illustrates the danger of Lutheranism and the doctrine of sola fide.

I believe, as does the Catholic Church, that Luther taught a dangerous heresy.

 

[sandusky]

This is silly. Luther basically believed that faith alone, through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, could save a person. Only by Christ’s mercy are we saved. Once we are saved, there is little reason to boldly sin, because we are filled with grace.

But even the Catholic Church believes that all sins will be forgiven by the grace of Jesus, if we are contrite and ask for forgiveness. The point is - Jesus forgives, again and again and again. We are all sinners, whether we “boldly sin” or not, and only by the grace of God are we forgiven.

I’m not sure, what’s silly?

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

There is nothing there that changes the meaning of Luther’s quote.

In fact, if you truly belief in salvation by faith alone, then his quote makes complete sense.

I think his quote illustrates the danger of Lutheranism and the doctrine of sola fide.

I believe, as does the Catholic Church, that Luther taught a dangerous heresy.

So you really believe that Luther was calling on people to sin in that quote? and also that he saw no need for repentance?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

What you are doing by this quote is inferring that Luther believed in OSAS, which is factually incorrect.

The quote makes it clear that Luther believes in salvation by faith alone. I don’t see these quotes necessarily supporting OSAS.

You ask if Luther believed if we can be separated from God because of our sins, there is your answer. It is clear concise, and undeniable: We deserve, because of our sins, God’s wrath and displeasure, temporal death, and eternal damnation.

I agree that this quote paints a much different picture than the other quotes I listed.

Why did he say such things if he didn’t believe them?

How do you know what he actually believed?

Do you know the chronology of the statements?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

So you really believe that Luther was calling on people to sin in that quote? and also that he saw no need for repentance?

I don’t think there is any doubt that Luther was making the case that sin cannot separate us from God in the quotes in the OP. As I conceded above, other quotes seem to contradict the quotes I listed.

I’ll repeat my questions from above.

How do we know what Luther really believed?

Do you know the chronology of these quotes?

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

I don’t think there is any doubt that Luther was making the case that sin cannot separate us from God in the quotes in the OP. As I conceded above, other quotes seem to contradict the quotes I listed.

I’ll repeat my questions from above.

How do we know what Luther really believed?

Do you know the chronology of these quotes?

How to we know that Jesus wasn’t really asking us to hate everyone we know? Doesn’t that seem to contradict his statements telling us to love one another? We can interpret Luke 14:23 correctly because we’ve examined the whole of His teaching and placed the statement in its proper context. If you’re sincerely interested in understanding Luther, I suggest reading many more of his writings, or even reading books explaining his theology or attending lectures doing such. Finding the most inflammatory statements you can and presenting them out of context is a poor way to try to understand anyone.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

How to we know that Jesus wasn’t really asking us to hate everyone we know? Doesn’t that seem to contradict his statements telling us to love one another? We can interpret Luke 14:23 correctly because we’ve examined the whole of His teaching and placed the statement in its proper context. If you’re sincerely interested in understanding Luther, I suggest reading many more of his writings, or even reading books explaining his theology or attending lectures doing such. Finding the most inflammatory statements you can and presenting them out of context is a poor way to try to understand anyone.

Those are by no means the most inflammatory statements made by Luther. His blatant distortions of the Catholic faith aside, he made many other statements that are worthy of criticism.

The statements I presented were in no way deceptive. Placing them inside a large quote does not change the meaning. We know what he meant at the time he wrote the quotes.

I believe a fair way of determining what Luther finally concluded is by reviewing the statements he made later in life after he had fully developed his theology.

Did he make the quotes in the OP early in life or later? If these were made before his doctrine was more fully developed then I agree that it should be assumed that these quotes were not representative.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

The statements I presented were in no way deceptive. Placing them inside a large quote does not change the meaning. We know what he meant at the time he wrote the quotes.

Do you? Now I’m happy to defer here to others that are more intimately familiar with the theology of Luther, but it seems to me that the point being made is that no sin we can commit is so grievous that God’s sacrifice is inadequate to atone for it.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Do you? Now I’m happy to defer here to others that are more intimately familiar with the theology of Luther, but it seems to me that the point being made is that no sin we can commit is so grievous that God’s sacrifice is inadequate to atone for it.

That’s not how I understand this:

Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin shall not drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder thousands and thousands of times a day (Luther, M. Letter of August 1, 1521 as quoted in Stoddard, p.93).

Luther doesn’t refer to a single day, he refers to thousands of times a day, as if this could be an ongoing activity with no spiritual consequences.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

That’s not how I understand this:

Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin shall not drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder thousands and thousands of times a day (Luther, M. Letter of August 1, 1521 as quoted in Stoddard, p.93).

Luther doesn’t refer to a single day, he refers to thousands of times a day, as if this could be an ongoing activity with no spiritual consequences.

To drag away implies that we are being taken from God unwillingly. Again, I’m happy to defer to someone with more background on Luther, but he seems to be talking about failures in struggling with sin. The excerpt certain shows Luther’s penchant for hyperbole, but I take from it that even should we fail at times in our obedience to Christ, we cannot be separated from Him against our will.

 

[JonNC]

=CHESTERTONRULES;4326218]The quote makes it clear that Luther believes in salvation by faith alone. I don’t see these quotes necessarily supporting OSAS.

And your perception of faith alone is what? That good works, including repentance and confession, are not needed? Or that sin cannot drive out the HS? If so, it is a faulty perception indeed.

Smalcald

] And such faith, renewal, and forgiveness of sins is followed by good works. And what there is still sinful or imperfect also in them shall not be accounted as sin or defect, even [and that, too] for Christ’s sake; but the entire man, both as to his person and his works, is to be called and to be righteous and holy from pure grace and mercy, shed upon us [unfolded] and spread over us in Christ. 3] Therefore we cannot boast of many merits and works, if they are viewed apart from grace and mercy, but as it is written, 1 Cor. 1:31: He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord, namely, that he has a gracious God. For thus all is well. 4] We say, besides, that if good works do not follow, faith is false and not true.

Epitome of the Formula of Concord

8] 3. We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, are bound to do good works.

9] 4. In this sense the words necessary, shall, and must are employed correctly and in a Christian manner also with respect to the regenerate, and in no way are contrary to the form of sound words and speech.

10] 5. Nevertheless, by the words mentioned, necessitas, necessarium, necessity and necessary, if they be employed concerning the regenerate, not coercion, but only due obedience is to be understood, which the truly believing, so far as they are regenerate, render not from coercion or the driving of the Law, but from a voluntary spirit; because they are no more under the Law, but under grace, Rom. 6:14; 7:6; 8:14.

11] 6. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.
12] 7. Yet this is not to be understood otherwise than as the Lord Christ and His apostles themselves declare, namely, regarding the liberated spirit, that it does not do this from fear of punishment, like a servant, but from love of righteousness, like children, Rom. 8:15.

Faith Alone is how we are justified. But Christ also calls on those who are justified to do as he commands, all manner of good works in His name, and not sin. But when we do sin, He is faithfull and just to forgive our sins and clease us from unrighteousness. It requires repentance and confession, and a true, living faith, not a dead faith.

I agree that this quote paints a much different picture than the other quotes I listed.
Why did he say such things if he didn’t believe them?

No, it doesn’t. As has been explained before, Luther was stating the obvious. That Christ’s atonement overcomes all sin. He was not speaking doctrine. He was marvelling in the great love of our Savior. The issue is not whether he believes what he said or not, but rather your misinterpretation.

As a final thought, I would encourage you to read the joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification. It is not a complete bridging of the differences between Catholic and Lutherans, but it certainly is a start.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Jon

 

[sola_scriptura]

That’s not how I understand this:

Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin shall not drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder thousands and thousands of times a day (Luther, M. Letter of August 1, 1521 as quoted in Stoddard, p.93).

Luther doesn’t refer to a single day, he refers to thousands of times a day, as if this could be an ongoing activity with no spiritual consequences.

So you think Luther promoted sin? Here’s a quote from Luther on this matter:

“Sin remains in the spiritual man for the exercise of grace, the humbling of pride, and the repression of presumption. For he who is not busily at work driving out sin without a doubt has sin by the very fact of this neglect, even though he has committed no further sin for which he may be damned. For we are not called to idleness; we are called to labor against our passions. These would not be without guilt—for they are truly sins, indeed damnable ones — if the mercy of God did not forego imputing them to us. But He does not impute them to those only who manfully undertake the struggle with their failings and, calling upon the grace of God, fight it through. Therefore he who goes to confession should not fancy that he is laying down burdens in order to live a life of ease. On the contrary, he should know that by laying down the burden he is undertaking to serve as a soldier of God and is taking a different burden upon himself, the burden of battling for God against the devil and his own failings. The man who does not know this will suffer a quick relapse. Therefore he who does not intend henceforth to fight—why does he ask to be absolved and to be enrolled in the army of Christ?”

 

[Peter_J]

As a final thought, I would encourage you to read the joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification. It is not a complete bridging of the differences between Catholic and Lutherans, but it certainly is a start.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Jon

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

And your perception of faith alone is what? That good works, including repentance and confession, are not needed? Or that sin cannot drive out the HS? If so, it is a faulty perception indeed.

Smalcald

Epitome of the Formula of Concord

Faith Alone is how we are justified. But Christ also calls on those who are justified to do as he commands, all manner of good works in His name, and not sin. But when we do sin, He is faithfull and just to forgive our sins and clease us from unrighteousness. It requires repentance and confession, and a true, living faith, not a dead faith.

No, it doesn’t. As has been explained before, Luther was stating the obvious. That Christ’s atonement overcomes all sin. He was not speaking doctrine. He was marvelling in the great love of our Savior. The issue is not whether he believes what he said or not, but rather your misinterpretation.

As a final thought, I would encourage you to read the joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification. It is not a complete bridging of the differences between Catholic and Lutherans, but it certainly is a start.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Jon

I think this is a great declaration, although I’ve only read excerpts.

My comments were directed to Martin Luther, not Lutherans.

I think Luther misrepresented Catholic Teaching and I believe he damaged Christianity.

Imagine a world with 2.2 billion Christians united in faith in a single Church.

I think our witness and collective faith would be much stronger .

 

[sola_scriptura]

I think this is a great declaration, although I’ve only read excerpts.

My comments were directed to Martin Luther, not Lutherans.

I think Luther misrepresented Catholic Teaching and I believe he damaged Christianity.

Imagine a world with 2.2 billion Christians united in faith in a single Church.

I think our witness and collective faith would be much stronger .

I think there’s more than 2.2 billion Christians these days – but we have to mostly thank the evangelicals and Pentecostals

 

[sola_scriptura]

As a final thought, I would encourage you to read the joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification. It is not a complete bridging of the differences between Catholic and Lutherans, but it certainly is a start.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Jon

Thanks for linking us to the statement. I read this like a year ago but haven’t thought about it in a while. Here’s a nice snip from it:

12.The justified live by faith that comes from the Word of Christ (Rom 10:17) and is active through love (Gal 5:6), the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22f). But since the justified are assailed from within and without by powers and desires (Rom 8:35-39; Gal 5:16-21) and fall into sin (1 Jn 1:8,10), they must constantly hear God’s promises anew, confess their sins (1 Jn 1:9), participate in Christ’s body and blood, and be exhorted to live righteously in accord with the will of God. That is why the Apostle says to the justified: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil 2:12f). But the good news remains: “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom 8:1), and in whom Christ lives (Gal 2:20). Christ’s “act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all” (Rom 5:18).

It’s pretty good stuff. This is a compromise position for both churches. The RCC got in Phil. 2:12 (as we in the protestant community jokingly say is their favorite verse); and the Lutherans were able to get the phrase “but the good new remains” in there.



Good for them. Now perhaps they’re both ready to re-read Augustine and ask themselves why they ever departed from his great theology?

 

[CWBetts]

I think there’s more than 2.2 billion Christians these days – but we have to mostly thank the evangelicals and Pentecostals

As a former Evnagelical Fundamentalist who finally found his way to the Holy Mother Church, yes there are more Protestants than Roman Catholics. But there sre couple of thing to consider: when is the last time you were even heard af a Catholic Mass that could be mistaken for a concert? When is is the last time you heard a Catholic identify his parish by the priest, rather than the Parish name? I will concede that the so-called “Mega-Churches” are not Catholic, bur sheer number in atttendance alone does not imply correctness. After all Hitler drew huge crowds of frenzied followers. Evangeliclas may be more in number, if you combine all of the different denominations, but it would be a mass of individuals, each with their own interpretation of scripture. Hardly the “one holy catholic apostolic church” mentioned in the Niacean Creed. The outnumbered Catholics must take solace in the fact that their Mass remains centered on Christ, as opposed to the Protestant service which is centerd on the preacher. Funny that it is Catholics who are under fire from Protestants for venerating saints. Protestants venerate their pastors. Don’t tell me I’m wrong, because as I mentioned before, I am a convert. I have seen almost fanatical devotion to a Pastor. I suppose it is a side affect from not being literally in the presence of our Lord and Saviour every Sunday.