Mary and her role? (Multi-Merged)

[AmosTown]

I have answered this in post 321, which I repost here:

[SIGN]Let me clarify what everyone is saying:

“Catholics do NO have to pray to Mary and Saints to be Catholic”

What we mean by “pray” to saints here…are private devotions, novenas, rosary, as examples, that a catholic is not required to do.

Again, it is a lingo or language usage issue…when you said pray to Mary and the saints, we assumed you were asking about private devotions and novenas. [/SIGN]

Now, please rephase your question.

Do you have to pray to Mary and the saints in mass to be Catholic?

 

[Jeanne_S]

I quess your true colors are showing here with this post. You are not here for answers but only wish to sew confusion and and troll. We have given you the answer. YES! you have to be apart of the Mass and believe what the Church teaches in order to be Catholic. NO! you do not have to pray to Mary as part of a personal devotion. YES you have to believe what hte Church teaches about Mary & the Communion of saints inorder to be a Catholic in good standing. If you were baptized catholic and confirmed catholic there is nothing you can do to not be catholic anymore than I can stop being human!

Peace to you my friend I will pray to Mary that your heart be softened towards her and that the truth of Christ Holy church on earth will become realized in your heart and mind.

This!!!

 

[po18guy]

I don’t recall changing something along the discussion. Do you mean Catholics can pray without devotion? Is that allowed? What kind of prayer is that?

Why are you making such negative assumptions? As to changing your questions, please allow me to refresh your memory:

Is this true? I just posted another topic asking this quiestion.

Then is it also true that CAtholics don’t need to have **devotion **to any saints?

Devotion is completely different from belief. Example: You believe in the devil. Are you devoted to him? Therefore, you must separate devotion from belief.

Now, I will grant that you do not understand the Catholic faith. I accept that you use a substantially different theological language. I agree that misunderstanding occurs when communication breaks down.

Your question is like the old “Did you stop beating your wife?” question. There is no correct answer as it is phrased - yet you insist on it being answered “yes” or “no” in its flawed form. Why is that? Are you seeking ammunition to use against the Church?

May I refer you once again to the forum rules? Please re-read and familiarize yourself with them, as you are held to the level of honesty that is contained within them.

 

[KP3243]

Another yes? Then that will be three I think that say “Yes” a Catholic must pray to Mary and the saints to be Catholic.

Must? outside of the Form A of the Penitential Act they do not come up as intercessors in Mass and you do not have to have private devotion to them to become Catholic which I believe was your original question.

 

[po18guy]

Amos, here is a link to the catechism. Although I very sincerely hope that you will consult with it, I also very sincerely doubt that you will.

 

[KP3243]

You Bible is missing the Book of Tobit so you are not dealing with a full deck to begin with. Your church followed traditions of man and removed books that were divinely inspired by God.

 

[po18guy]

Must? outside of the Form A of the Penitential Act they do not come up as intercessors in Mass and you do not have to have private devotion to them to become Catholic which I believe was your original question.

We see in this thread a desire, not to actively investigate or learn, but rather, to accuse by asking trick questions. The motive has become apparent.

 

[AmosTown]

This!!!

The only part of the Mass that I am aware of that invokes Mary and the saints (and the angels) directly is the Confiteor. And yes, when the priest chooses that option, the assembly is required to pray it with him. So yes, it is compulsory for Catholics to believe in and pray to the Communion of Saints.

You have to make the responses, you have to sing, you have to participate “fully, actively, and consciously” in the Mass in order to live up to the requirements of the Church.

 

[AmosTown]

We see in this thread a desire, not to actively investigate or learn, but rather, to accuse by asking trick questions. The motive has become apparent.

The only part of the Mass that I am aware of that invokes Mary and the saints (and the angels) directly is the Confiteor. And yes, when the priest chooses that option, the assembly is required to pray it with him. So yes, it is compulsory for Catholics to believe in and pray to the Communion of Saints.

You have to make the responses, you have to sing, you have to participate “fully, actively, and consciously” in the Mass in order to live up to the requirements of the Church.

 

[AmosTown]

I quess your true colors are showing here with this post. You are not here for answers but only wish to sew confusion and and troll. We have given you the answer. YES! you have to be apart of the Mass and believe what the Church teaches in order to be Catholic. NO! you do not have to pray to Mary as part of a personal devotion. YES you have to believe what hte Church teaches about Mary & the Communion of saints inorder to be a Catholic in good standing. If you were baptized catholic and confirmed catholic there is nothing you can do to not be catholic anymore than I can stop being human!

Peace to you my friend I will pray to Mary that your heart be softened towards her and that the truth of Christ Holy church on earth will become realized in your heart and mind.

The only part of the Mass that I am aware of that invokes Mary and the saints (and the angels) directly is the Confiteor. And yes, when the priest chooses that option, the assembly is required to pray it with him. So yes, it is compulsory for Catholics to believe in and pray to the Communion of Saints.

You have to make the responses, you have to sing, you have to participate “fully, actively, and consciously” in the Mass in order to live up to the requirements of the Church.

 

[AmosTown]

Why are you making such negative assumptions? As to changing your questions, please allow me to refresh your memory: Devotion is completely different from belief. Example: You believe in the devil. Are you devoted to him? Therefore, you must separate devotion from belief.

Now, I will grant that you do not understand the Catholic faith. I accept that you use a substantially different theological language. I agree that misunderstanding occurs when communication breaks down.

Your question is like the old “Did you stop beating your wife?” question. There is no correct answer as it is phrased - yet you insist on it being answered “yes” or “no” in its flawed form. Why is that? Are you seeking ammunition to use against the Church?

May I refer you once again to the forum rules? Please re-read and familiarize yourself with them, as you are held to the level of honesty that is contained within them.

As are you po18guy. You’ve brought in these really bad examples like wife beating and I’m just trying to get a clear answer and I finally did.

The only part of the Mass that I am aware of that invokes Mary and the saints (and the angels) directly is the Confiteor. And yes, when the priest chooses that option, the assembly is required to pray it with him. So yes, it is compulsory for Catholics to believe in and pray to the Communion of Saints.

You have to make the responses, you have to sing, you have to participate “fully, actively, and consciously” in the Mass in order to live up to the requirements of the Church.

It is compulsory for Catholics to believe in and pray to Mary and the saints. You can’t be a Catholic without praying to Mary and the saints.

 

[KP3243]

AmosTown:
the penitential rite also known as the confietor is asking for intercession not praying as if God Almighty is replaceable! Now go read the Book of Tobit things will make more sense.

 

[AmosTown]

the penitential rite also known as the confietor is asking for intercession not praying as if God Almighty is replaceable! Now go read the Book of Tobit things will make more sense.

I go by definitions:

pray - entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea

“and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me”

 

[KP3243]

I go by definitions:

pray - entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea

“and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin,all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me”

So when you ask your boss for a raise you are praying to him and confusing him with God?

 

[ProdigalSun]

LOL are you guys still at it. I’m sure you have all heard know that we should not throw our pearls before the swine. This troll has asked and he has been answered so many times it is laughable. If he were truly here for answers his thick skin and hard heart would have been penetrated enough that he would understand what we are explaining to him. THis is not his reason for being here. He is playing with you acting the fool trying to show how hypocritical we are but it truly only shows his hypocracy. All he neeeds to do is go to Mass and his guestions would be ansewered.

Let us pray for him espeacilally to our most Holy Mother the one he wishs to disparage the most.

Immaculate Mary our beloed Mother. Spouse to the Holy spirit and the true Mother of God. I ask you to watch over our brother Amos that his eyes and ears be open to CHrist and his CHurch.

Amen!

 

[KP3243]

As He has promised to intercede for us (John 14:16), and is said to do so (Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25), we may ask His intercession, though this is not customary in public worship. He prays in virtue of His own merits; the saints intercede for us in virtue of His merits, not their own. Consequently when we pray to them, it is to ask for their intercession in our behalf, not to expect that they can bestow gifts on us of their own power, or obtain them in virtue of their own merit. Even the souls in purgatory, according to the common opinion of theologians, pray to God to move the faithful to offer prayers, sacrifices, and expiatory works for them. They also pray for themselves and for souls still on earth. The fact that Christ knows the future, or that the saints may know many future things, does not prevent them from praying. As they foresee the future, so also they foresee how its happenings may be influenced by their prayers, and they at least by prayer do all in their power to bring about what is best, though those for whom they pray may not dispose themselves for the blessings thus invoked. The just can pray, and sinners also. The opinion of Quesnel that the prayer of the sinned adds to his sin was condemned by Clement XI (Denzinger, 10 ed., n. 1409). Though there is no supernatural merit in the sinner’s prayer, it may be heard, and indeed he is obliged to make it just as before he sinned. No matter how hardened he may become in sin, he needs and is bound to pray to be delivered from it and from the temptations which beset him. His prayer could offend God only if it were hypocritical, or presumptuous, as if he should ask God to suffer him to continue in his evil course. It goes without saying that in hell prayer is impossible; neither devils nor lost souls can pray, or be the object of prayer.

 

[adf417]

LOL are you guys still at it. I’m sure you have all heard know that we should not throw our pearls before the swine. This troll has asked and he has been answered so many times it is laughable. If he were truly here for answers his thick skin and hard heart would have been penetrated enough that he would understand what we are explaining to him. THis is not his reason for being here. He is playing with you acting the fool trying to show how hypocritical we are but it truly only shows his hypocracy. All he neeeds to do is go to Mass and his guestions would be ansewered.

!

If they were real guestions , I would agree. But yes, prayers for this soul are in order.

 

[KP3243]

Tobit 12:12-22

12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord. 13 And because thou wast acceptable to God, it was necessary that temptation should prove thee. 14 And now the Lord hath sent me to heal thee, and to deliver Sara thy son’s wife from the devil.15 For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord.
16 And when they had heard these things, they were troubled, and being seized with fear they fell upon the ground on their face. 17 And the angel said to them: Peace be to you, fear not. 18 For when I was with you, I was there by the will of God: bless ye him, and sing praises to him. 19 I seemed indeed to eat and to drink with you: but I use an invisible meat and drink, which cannot be seen by men. 20 It is time therefore that I return to him that sent me: but bless ye God, and publish all his wonderful works. 21 And when he had said these things, he was taken from their sight, and they could see him no more. 22 Then they lying prostrate for three hours upon their face, blessed God: and rising up, they told all his wonderful works.

 

[ProdigalSun]

If they were real guestions , I would agree. But yes, prayers for this soul are in order.

Exactly, he is all over the place with his (fake)?) questions. He has some old book that is not in use and he says well these prays are in the book so they must be part of the mass. If he went to mass for 100 days he would not here any of them used.

His ignorance of Catholicism and CHristianity as it has always been correctly understood for 2000 years seeps out of his pours. His Yes & No Questions have been answered ad nauseum!

 

[ProdigalSun]

Now anyminute he will come back with… " I’m being treated so poorly by everyone here I only want an easy Yes or No Answer" Visualize Puss n’ Boots here with his big round eyes trying to gain our sympathy. He has been answered Yes and No because he asks to different questions trying to get us to believe they are one question.

If he was truthful he would come out and talk about his real issue and that is his problem with the Communion of Saints.

Peace!