Mary and her role? (Multi-Merged)

[pablope]

The definition of pray is below:
pray - entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea

Originally Posted by pablope
What do you mean by “pray” here?

I think we have a lingo issue. Pray or to pray could mean differently to different people.

You just wrote "I ask the blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, " I looked up pray and one meaning is a petition. The word “ask” is a petition.

Okay…to pray is to implore, ask, to petition…so what is you issue with petitioning, imploring, asking?

Well, let me frame it this way…what is a Christian thing to do…to pray for someone or not to pray for someone?

 

[AmosTown]

A priest will not tell you anything differently. With your question, just reading it will not answer your question, you need a one on one.

I think this is a very simple question. “Do Catholics have to pray to Mary and saints to be Catholic?”

What can be so hard about this question I don’t know. I’m sitting here reading page after page of Catholic books and just when I’m getting somewhere on thinking I understand Catholics, I see posts on Catholic Answers that say “Catholics do NO have to pray to Mary and Saints to be Catholic”

That is opposite the teaching that the mass prayers are said together as One heart to God.

 

[AmosTown]

I’m certain there is no lingo issuu here. The pattern was clear many posts back.

How about lingo definitions:

pray - entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea

That’s taken from the dictionary

 

[AmosTown]

Oh, okay. Well, if I were you, I’d take these questions to my Bible study leader and demand an answer to these questions:

How is intercessory prayer wrong?
How/Why is it wrong to ask someone to pray for you?
Are the Scriptures wrong when they teach us to pray for one another?
Is the book of Revelation wrong?
Was Paul wrong?
On what basis do you (the Bible study leader) say that intercession is wrong?

He’ll likely repsond with something about necromancy…completely forgetting that Christ told us that God is the God of the living, not of the dead…that when we pass on from this life, we are alive in God, not “dead”. He’ll forget that Paul pointed us to the great cloud of witnesses who have passed on before us who cheer us on during our race in this life, and he’ll forget the numerous examples of people praying for others, others asking specifically for prayers, the departed souls in Heaven who are fully alive, the prayers of the saints raising to Heaven as incense, etc… (I posted a couple dozen Scripture references to all this earlier on in this very thread by the way).

Anyway, if your Bible study leader is assuming that he has some authority to teach the Scriptures to you, he needs to be able to support his asserted belief and provide evidence of his authority to teach the Scriptures to you. (I don’t think he’ll be able to do either of these.)

I didn’t say it was wrong. I said there is a lot of opinion that says its wrong. But even so, that is not my question. My question is the subject of the post.

Do Catholics have to pray to Mary (and the saints) to be Catholic? That is the question. Yes or no?

 

[KP3243]

The definition of pray is below:
pray - entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea

Yes and we pray to God and we ask for intercession to those who share the beatific vision with God and who are more fully alive then you and I are.

 

[AmosTown]

Could it be that your question does not have simple yes or no answer? How is that possible?

The bible says: “But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.”

There has to be a yes or no answer to my question because God is Truth.

 

[pablope]

I think this is a very simple question. “Do Catholics have to pray to Mary and saints to be Catholic?”

What can be so hard about this question I don’t know. I’m sitting here reading page after page of Catholic books and just when I’m getting somewhere on thinking I understand Catholics, I see posts on Catholic Answers that say “Catholics do NO have to pray to Mary and Saints to be Catholic”

That is opposite the teaching that the mass prayers are said together as One heart to God.

Let me clarify what everyone is saying:

“Catholics do NO have to pray to Mary and Saints to be Catholic”

What we mean by “pray” to saints here…are private devotions, novenas, rosary, as examples, that a catholic is not required to do.

Again, it is a lingo or language usage issue…when you said pray to Mary and the saints, we assumed you were asking about private devotions and novenas.

That is why it is better to have a one on one interaction.

 

[KP3243]

I didn’t say it was wrong. I said there is a lot of opinion that says its wrong. But even so, that is not my question. My question is the subject of the post.

Do Catholics have to pray to Mary (and the saints) to be Catholic? That is the question. Yes or no?

Are you asking if we pray to Mary and the Saints instead of God or as intercessors?

 

[AmosTown]

Yes and we pray to God and we ask for intercession to those who share the beatific vision with God and who are more fully alive then you and I are.

Another yes? Then that will be three I think that say “Yes” a Catholic must pray to Mary and the saints to be Catholic.

 

[AmosTown]

Let me clarify what everyone is saying:

“Catholics do NO have to pray to Mary and Saints to be Catholic”

What we mean by “pray” to saints here…are private devotions, novenas, rosary, as examples, that a catholic is not required to do.

Again, it is a lingo or language usage issue…when you said pray to Mary and the saints, we assumed you were asking about private devotions and novenas.

That is why it is better to have a one on one interaction.

Your answer then is “No” I don’t have to pray to saints or Mary. So your answer is that I can ignore the prayers to Mary and the saints in the mass, but I’ve already asked, then how can that be the mass prayer.

I thought the mass is a common prayer said with the priest and the people with one heart offered to God.

 

[pablope]

Your answer then is “No” I don’t have to pray to saints or Mary. So your answer is that I can ignore the prayers to Mary and the saints in the mass, but I’ve already asked, then how can that be the mass prayer.

I thought the mass is a common prayer said with the priest and the people with one heart offered to God.

That is why it is better to have a theologian answer your question, one on one.

There are nuances in the celebration of the Mass…there are deeper answers to your question, that I for one, cannot provide…in the hope of not confusing you further.

 

[AmosTown]

Let me clarify what everyone is saying:

“Catholics do NO have to pray to Mary and Saints to be Catholic”

What we mean by “pray” to saints here…are private devotions, novenas, rosary, as examples, that a catholic is not required to do.

Again, it is a lingo or language usage issue…when you said pray to Mary and the saints, we assumed you were asking about private devotions and novenas.

That is why it is better to have a one on one interaction.

How do I know who is right? 3 others I think on the forum says you do have to pray to Mary and the saints in mass.

 

[pablope]

How do I know who is right? 3 others I think on the forum says you do have to pray to Mary and the saints in mass.

That is why, I repeat, you need a one on one sitdown with a priest, a theologian.

Here is another suggestion, instead of asking “must”…ask instead why do and understand the reasoning behind it.

 

[AmosTown]

That is why, I repeat, you need a one on one sitdown with a priest, a theologian.

No offense but isn’t Catholic Answers the place to provide answers from theologians?

 

[po18guy]

I think this is a very simple question. “Do Catholics have to pray to Mary and saints to be Catholic?”

What can be so hard about this question I don’t know. I’m sitting here reading page after page of Catholic books and just when I’m getting somewhere on thinking I understand Catholics, I see posts on Catholic Answers that say “Catholics do NO have to pray to Mary and Saints to be Catholic”

That is opposite the teaching that the mass prayers are said together as One heart to God.

Stop changing the question, - you began with “devotion” then did a bait and switch on us. Your question, as it is posed, is a snare.

 

[ahs]

I didn’t say it was wrong. I said there is a lot of opinion that says its wrong.

Right. Hence I am saying you should clarify this with the person who told you it is wrong:
Oh, okay. Well, if I were you, I’d take these questions to my Bible study leader and demand an answer to these questions:

How is intercessory prayer wrong?
How/Why is it wrong to ask someone to pray for you?
Are the Scriptures wrong when they teach us to pray for one another?
Is the book of Revelation wrong?
Was Paul wrong?
On what basis do you (the Bible study leader) say that intercession is wrong?

He’ll likely repsond with something about necromancy…completely forgetting that Christ told us that God is the God of the living, not of the dead…that when we pass on from this life, we are alive in God, not “dead”. He’ll forget that Paul pointed us to the great cloud of witnesses who have passed on before us who cheer us on during our race in this life, and he’ll forget the numerous examples of people praying for others, others asking specifically for prayers, the departed souls in Heaven who are fully alive, the prayers of the saints raising to Heaven as incense, etc… (I posted a couple dozen Scripture references to all this earlier on in this very thread by the way).

Anyway, if your Bible study leader is assuming that he has some authority to teach the Scriptures to you, he needs to be able to support his asserted belief and provide evidence of his authority to teach the Scriptures to you. (I don’t think he’ll be able to do either of these.)

 

[AmosTown]

Stop changing the question, - you began with “devotion” then did a bait and switch on us. Your question, as it is posed, is a snare.

I don’t recall changing something along the discussion. Do you mean Catholics can pray without devotion? Is that allowed? What kind of prayer is that?

 

[ahs]

No offense but isn’t Catholic Answers the place to provide answers from theologians?

Actually, most of the members here are lay persons. If you want an answer by a theologian, you should ask a Priest, who can visit with you one on one about it.

 

[AmosTown]

Right. Hence I am saying you should clarify this with the person who told you it is wrong:
Oh, okay. Well, if I were you, I’d take these questions to my Bible study leader and demand an answer to these questions:

How is intercessory prayer wrong?
How/Why is it wrong to ask someone to pray for you?
Are the Scriptures wrong when they teach us to pray for one another?
Is the book of Revelation wrong?
Was Paul wrong?
On what basis do you (the Bible study leader) say that intercession is wrong?

He’ll likely repsond with something about necromancy…completely forgetting that Christ told us that God is the God of the living, not of the dead…that when we pass on from this life, we are alive in God, not “dead”. He’ll forget that Paul pointed us to the great cloud of witnesses who have passed on before us who cheer us on during our race in this life, and he’ll forget the numerous examples of people praying for others, others asking specifically for prayers, the departed souls in Heaven who are fully alive, the prayers of the saints raising to Heaven as incense, etc… (I posted a couple dozen Scripture references to all this earlier on in this very thread by the way).

Anyway, if your Bible study leader is assuming that he has some authority to teach the Scriptures to you, he needs to be able to support his asserted belief and provide evidence of his authority to teach the Scriptures to you. (I don’t think he’ll be able to do either of these.)

Again. I didn’t say that praying to Mary and the saints is wrong. I asked is it necessary that Catholics pray to Mary and the saints to be Catholic?

 

[pablope]

Again. I didn’t say that praying to Mary and the saints is wrong. I asked is it necessary that Catholics pray to Mary and the saints to be Catholic?

I have answered this in post 321, which I repost here:

[SIGN]Let me clarify what everyone is saying:

“Catholics do NO have to pray to Mary and Saints to be Catholic”

What we mean by “pray” to saints here…are private devotions, novenas, rosary, as examples, that a catholic is not required to do.

Again, it is a lingo or language usage issue…when you said pray to Mary and the saints, we assumed you were asking about private devotions and novenas. [/SIGN]

Now, please rephase your question.