Mary and her Virginity

[LilyM]

Thanks for the response Tim. I can see it just as easily from the other side though.

For example, my niece is being raised as a good, God fearing girl. She also lives in a very conservative community. I promise you, if I, or someone else said to her right now, Rebecca, you will concieve a child, her response would be how I’m not maried

This would not, and does not mean, she has no intention of ever getting married. She will at some point, I’m sure. But her response would reflect her present position and her understanding of right relations - children are to be born within wedlock.

But if your niece was *in fact *engaged to be married - if she had already been betrothed to a prospective spouse and future-father-of-children, to whom she was more or less shortly to be wed - was looking forward to normal marital relations and all the rest - and THEN was told that she was going to conceive a child, you can bet the response would be very different!

 

[guanophore]

This may be off topic, but I was just browsing through this thread and I noticed this statement and I just had to say something.

Actually, threads of this kind always eventually get to this point. The Teachings about Mary are rooted in Sacred Tradition.

To the best of my knowledge the tradition of the CC is taken from the magisterium, (church hierarchy) and the early church fathers all of which are men and because they are men are sinners and prone to err.

This is a testimony as to how poor “the best of your knowledge” really is.

Sacred Tradition comes from the Teaching of Jesus, through the Apostles. What was stated is 100% true. All of the NT is a product of Sacred Tradition.

Scripture while written down by men is the divinely inspired word of God, who is not a sinner and never errs. My question to you is, if scripture is the word of God and tradition is the word of man, how could the word of God possibly be subject to the word of man?

The NT was written by sinful men who err. The reason it is inerrant is because the HS preserved the men who wrote it from error, just like the HS preserves the Church teaching from error.

Your premise is faulty, so the question is the wrong one. Sacred Tradition comes from the Kerygma, the word of God preached by the Apostles. It is not “of man”.

Besides that, Scripture is not “subject” to Sacred Tradition. They are two strands of the same One Revelation of God to the Church.

 

[jpaul1953]

Thanks for the response Tim. I can see it just as easily from the other side though.

For example, my niece is being raised as a good, God fearing girl. She also lives in a very conservative community. I promise you, if I, or someone else said to her right now, Rebecca, you will concieve a child, her response would be how I’m not maried

This would not, and does not mean, she has no intention of ever getting married. She will at some point, I’m sure. But her response would reflect her present position and her understanding of right relations - children are to be born within wedlock.

If someone said to her Rebecca one day you will meet a nice young man, get married, buy a house, and have a child, she’d probably say way to go !!! It’s because the statement she would have a child came in the worng order of things.

Similarily, I can see Mary’s response in the same light. On hearing the news she will conceive a child, her response is, in essence, how, I’m not married. There is an immediacy implied in the Angels words, which may have thrown Mary as the marriage may have been some way off. We don’t know. We’re not told.

It does not necessarily preclude the fact she will get married, and have normal marital relations.

Like I said, I’m open to correction and rethinking.

Guyonthestreet,

How about this point of view. Things do get lost in translation and interpretation. If this is not he case, than the KJV would read exactly like the Catholic English, the NIV, etc. And, there are many thousands of denominations of small and large protestant congregations because they disagree on some matter of faith and morals (which is usually determined by the Scriptures by sola scriptura).

You are giving your personal interpretation to 2000-year old language and scripts with today’s language and script. There’s a lot more to be lost from 2000-year old scripts into nowaday than 400-year old script into nowaday.

I will trust the heavily schooled translators (who made decisions based on many individuals effort) of the Church with Holy Spirit guidance than any and all nowaday heavily schooled translators with Holy Spirit guidance of the script much older and further in time from the language of translation. I also understand that the original translation / interpretation is without any bias for searching only for the truth, rather than a different version to conflict with the original understanding of the truthto make valid the newly formed congregation.

I always like to mention that the first Protesters believed in the perpetual virginity (no siblings of Jesus) of Mary and the true Presence as reiterated by St Paul.

May God guide us always.

jpaul1953

 

[guanophore]

This prophesy is not about Mary. It’s about Jesus and His church.

Do you somehow think that Mary is separated from Jesus and His Church?

Genesis 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel." 16 To the woman he said: “I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children. Yet your urge shall be for your husband, and he shall be your master.”

Here God says to the woman “I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children.” Children here is the plural for one child. Unless Mary had children (plural). This cannot be talking of her.

I agree, but the reference was to the first part, about the enmity between the woman’s off spring, and the offspring of the Serpent. Between these two offspring there is enmity.

 

[Sellers1]

Dear Sellers1,

Can you not believe that words over time carry different meanings. Stop being so literal. For instance, if I said today: “it is raining cats and dogs outside”. You would know that I am saying it is raining very hard outside. Two thousand years from now if some one was going to read this, they could take it literally as you might or take it in a literal sense of what it meant when it was said. There are a multitude of phrases used in our language that make no sense to people trying to learn our language today, forget about 2,000 years from now.

According to the Greek translation the word ‘until’ does not mean that something will occur after ‘until’ is reached. For instance, (I do not know the chapter/verse), but the bible reads: " She did not bear any children until after her death." You know as well as I that she didn’t bear children after she died. The verse was just to explain that she had no while alive.

So when Matt1:25 - “He had no relations with her until she bore a son,* and he named him Jesus.” [The Footnote] The evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated "until"does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus’ birth, nor does it exclude it.

Please try also to remember that the Church assembled the writings to be put into the NT. At the time, why would the Church care whether Mary was a virgin or not. I would trust that ‘the truth is the truth’ and the Church was defending the truth that the Church had found many years before the Reformation, when, as you probably know, the Reformists still believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity.

May God always guide us

jpaul1953

You’re just wrong my friend. First of all the best truthful defense you can make on the word “Until” is that the Greek definition is that it is neutral. You cannot truthfully state that it doesn’t mean that the circumstances changed after. That’s just more mental gymnastics.

You are trying to ram the Catholic church assembling Scripture down my throat again. You cannot prove it because it isn’t so. If it were then the Orthodox church could rightfully lay the same claim to it.

All in all, you are running in circles to to defend something that simply isn’t true. This goes way beyond just saying that one doesn’t believe that anything is true unless it is in Scripture. Everybody knows that it isn’t the case. This is just simply radical beliefs that do not parallel Scripture at all.

 

[jpaul1953]

You’re just wrong my friend. First of all the best truthful defense you can make on the word “Until” is that the Greek definition is that it is neutral. You cannot truthfully state that it doesn’t mean that the circumstances changed after. That’s just more mental gymnastics.

You are trying to ram the Catholic church assembling Scripture down my throat again. You cannot prove it because it isn’t so. If it were then the Orthodox church could rightfully lay the same claim to it.

All in all, you are running in circles to to defend something that simply isn’t true. This goes way beyond just saying that one doesn’t believe that anything is true unless it is in Scripture. Everybody knows that it isn’t the case. This is just simply radical beliefs that do not parallel Scripture at all.

Dear Sellers1,

Well, here comes a stock answer! For those who believe, there is no explanation necessary. For those who don’t believe, there is no explanation possible.

So I won’t waste your time or mine in responding to you, a non-believer.

I hate to say this, but I must. Our Church has made an exception for people who hold such defiant claims, the Invinsibly Ignorant. This does not mean in any way or form invisibly stupid because that you are not. You are quite bright with a not so nice view of Catholicism. And, I know this is not what you want to hear for the thousandth time. My Church has the authority from Christ, Himself, to make this claim.

I truly bid you Godspeed, my fellow Christian.

jpaul1953

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

You’re just wrong my friend. First of all the best truthful defense you can make on the word “Until” is that the Greek definition is that it is neutral. You cannot truthfully state that it doesn’t mean that the circumstances changed after. That’s just more mental gymnastics.

You are trying to ram the Catholic church assembling Scripture down my throat again. You cannot prove it because it isn’t so. If it were then the Orthodox church could rightfully lay the same claim to it.

All in all, you are running in circles to to defend something that simply isn’t true. This goes way beyond just saying that one doesn’t believe that anything is true unless it is in Scripture. Everybody knows that it isn’t the case. This is just simply radical beliefs that do not parallel Scripture at all.

Well, if you have the time to respond to my and others’ questions regarding the Annunciation, feel free to do so.

 

[ufamtobie]

Okay, I want to ask this question at RCIA, but I have been quiet so far. I don’t want this to turn into a free for all as my question about James did in the other thread. So please keep the responses specific to the question if we can.

I understand and have faith that Mary was a virgin mother to Jesus. The church teaches us that she remained a virgin and this seems very important to the church. I am not disagreeing with this, just trying to understand more clearly.

OneHeartWay,

Lets look at Mary’s Virginity through the eyes of St. Joseph. St. Joseph was a humble/holy God fearing Man.

Now when Joseph found out that Virgin Mary was pregnant, he did not want anything to do with Mary, in his mind the wedding was not going to happen, because Joseph thought that Virgin Mary had intercourse with another man.

My point is, now if Joseph thought that Mary had intercourse with another man, and for this reason he wanted to put Mary away. But Now that Joseph is about to find out by a dream, that Virgin Mary is Highly Favored/Full of GRACE that she has concieved the Son of God by the HOLY SPIRIT. What now?.. I will tell you what now, in the mind and heart of St. Joseph would only be with the highest Respect for the Highly Favored, Full of Grace, daughter of the Most High God and having intercourse with Vigin Mary flew right out of the window. Joseph came to know his Roll.

It took a heavenly dream, to convince Joseph, that Virgin Mary is having a child, the Son of God by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT. And it took this dream for Joseph to know HIS TRUE ROLL, and that is of a caregiver/protector only, of Jesus and Virgin Mary. Amen

Oneheartway, Now that Joseph new that Virgin Mary’s true Spouse, is the Holy Spirit, what makes you think that St. Joseph would want to have intercourse with the Spouse of the Holy Spirit?

Yes, Virgin Mary’s True Spouse is the HOLY SPIRIT! and Not St. Joseph.

Yes, Yes, Yes, Joseph indeed married Virgin Mary like the Bible states, but this was for Mary’s reputation not to be destroyed by the Jews of that time, also, for Virgin Mary and for Baby Jesus Our Savior, to have a male Protector/Gaurdian/A fatherly figure, like I stated to you earlier.

Oneheartway, Lets put this way, Lets say YOU were St. Joseph, and you found out that Vrigin Mary was pregnant, and is now Having the Son of God by the Power of the Holy Spirit, Would you want to have intercouse with Virgin Mary the Spouse of the HOLY SPIRIT, or would you KNOW YOUR ROLL?..I sure hope you would say that you “know your roll”

God The Father protected Virgin Mary’s Virginity/Reputation back then by having jOSEPH Fullfill his Roll and God still protects her Virginity/Reputation though the Catholic Church.

Truth is, God Protected her Virginity/Reputation from the Jews of Old, While the Catholic Church, and me, Protects her Virginity/Reputation from the Protestants of today. Amen.

Oneheartway, to answer your qoute above which is: “The questions are…
Where in the scripture does it imply that she remained a virgin throughout her life?
Why is it so important that she have remained so?”

The Answer is: Jesus Christ, did not build a bible but a Church, therefore it is through the Church that we learn that Virgin Mary REMAINED a Virgin thoughout her life. And it is only common sense that a Holy God Fearing Man, Like Joseph, would not DISRESPECT the Virginity of Virgin Mary the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. AMEN

Ufam Tobie

 

[wmscott]

Okay, I want to ask this question at RCIA, but I have been quiet so far. I don’t want this to turn into a free for all as my question about James did in the other thread. So please keep the responses specific to the question if we can.

I understand and have faith that Mary was a virgin mother to Jesus. The church teaches us that she remained a virgin and this seems very important to the church. I am not disagreeing with this, just trying to understand more clearly.

The questions are…
Where in the scripture does it imply that she remained a virgin throughout her life?
Why is it so important that she have remained so?

Oneheartway, try this link it has a lot of really good information. also this link is the library here at Catholic.com. it has lots of good info to read, especially while going through RCIA.
I want you to notice something very significant here. Notice how the errant individuals, who are not of the Catholic faith, are quick to try to shake your faith, your conversion, and especially an accurate understanding of Marian doctrine? One has to wonder if there are some forces out there working through them to prevent you coming to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. They actually hate and fear the Catholic Church. They will cite that it is not Biblical, where does it say that in Sacred Scripture, or that the Catholic Church is wrong. They are so tunnel versioned in on Bible only that they are intellectually stunted. They disregard the Early Church Fathers, many of whom, had actual firsthand knowledge and some even interacted with Christ, the Apostles, and the Blessed Mother.

AS for asking questions in RCIA, please, please ask them, this is the time to ask. This is how we learn and grow. No question is too small or insignificant to ask or answer. I personally assist in teaching RCIA. As a convert, I wanted to get involved because I know where the converts are at and where they are coming from. I have been where you are. So, good luck in RCIA, and have fun. If there are any further questions that I can answer, you can PM me or we can do it on the forum in this thread.

 

[sedonaman]

The questions are…
Where in the scripture does it imply that she remained a virgin throughout her life?
Why is it so important that she have remained so?

What do your questions have to do with non-Catholic religions? Why did you post them here? Just asking.

 

[happilycatholic]

Not in the least. Matthew 1:25 “Joseph had no union with her UNTIL she gave birth to a son.”

I believe the word “until” covers the period up to the birth of Christ. How does that address the time after the birth of Christ?

See:

un·til (http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ubreve.gi...breve.giflhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif)
prep. **1. **Up to the time of: We danced until dawn.
**2. **Before (a specified time): She can’t leave until Friday.
**3. **Scots Unto; to.

conj. **1. **Up to the time that: We walked until it got dark.
**2. **Before: You cannot leave until your work is finished.
**3. **To the point or extent that: I talked until I was hoarse. See Usage Note at till2.

 

[jpaul1953]

OneHeartWay,

Lets look at Mary’s Virginity through the eyes of St. Joseph. St. Joseph was a humble/holy God fearing Man.

Now when Joseph found out that Virgin Mary was pregnant, he did not want anything to do with Mary, in his mind the wedding was not going to happen, because Joseph thought that Virgin Mary had intercourse with another man.

My point is, now if Joseph thought that Mary had intercourse with another man, and for this reason he wanted to put Mary away. But Now that Joseph is about to find out by a dream, that Virgin Mary is Highly Favored/Full of GRACE that she has concieved the Son of God by the HOLY SPIRIT. What now?.. I will tell you what now, in the mind and heart of St. Joseph would only be with the highest Respect for the Highly Favored, Full of Grace, daughter of the Most High God and having intercourse with Vigin Mary flew right out of the window. Joseph came to know his Roll.

It took a heavenly dream, to convince Joseph, that Virgin Mary is having a child, the Son of God by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT. And it took this dream for Joseph to know HIS TRUE ROLL, and that is of a caregiver/protector only, of Jesus and Virgin Mary. Amen

Oneheartway, Now that Joseph new that Virgin Mary’s true Spouse, is the Holy Spirit, what makes you think that St. Joseph would want to have intercourse with the Spouse of the Holy Spirit?

Yes, Virgin Mary’s True Spouse is the HOLY SPIRIT! and Not St. Joseph.

Yes, Yes, Yes, Joseph indeed married Virgin Mary like the Bible states, but this was for Mary’s reputation not to be destroyed by the Jews of that time, also, for Virgin Mary and for Baby Jesus Our Savior, to have a male Protector/Gaurdian/A fatherly figure, like I stated to you earlier.

Oneheartway, Lets put this way, Lets say YOU were St. Joseph, and you found out that Vrigin Mary was pregnant, and is now Having the Son of God by the Power of the Holy Spirit, Would you want to have intercouse with Virgin Mary the Spouse of the HOLY SPIRIT, or would you KNOW YOUR ROLL?..I sure hope you would say that you “know your roll”

God The Father protected Virgin Mary’s Virginity/Reputation back then by having jOSEPH Fullfill his Roll and God still protects her Virginity/Reputation though the Catholic Church.

Truth is, God Protected her Virginity/Reputation from the Jews of Old, While the Catholic Church, and me, Protects her Virginity/Reputation from the Protestants of today. Amen.

Oneheartway, to answer your qoute above which is: “The questions are…
Where in the scripture does it imply that she remained a virgin throughout her life?
Why is it so important that she have remained so?”

The Answer is: Jesus Christ, did not build a bible but a Church, therefore it is through the Church that we learn that Virgin Mary REMAINED a Virgin thoughout her life. And it is only common sense that a Holy God Fearing Man, Like Joseph, would not DISRESPECT the Virginity of Virgin Mary the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. AMEN

Ufam Tobie

Ufam Tobie,

Pretty good view. Makes sense to me. The biggest thing that I get upset about is that most of the original protesters believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity and the Real Prescence in the Eucharist. So when latter day Protestants ague with us about these points, I say argue eith the first Ptrotesters, you newbies disagree with them your bosses.

God bless Ufam Tobie

jpaul1953

 

[JonNC]

Ufam Tobie,

Pretty good view. Makes sense to me. The biggest thing that I get upset about is that most of the original protesters believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity and the Real Prescence in the Eucharist. So when latter day Protestants ague with us about these points, I say argue eith the first Ptrotesters, you newbies disagree with them your bosses.

God bless Ufam Tobie

jpaul1953

While what you say may be true regarding the reformers view on Mary, it isn’t true regarding the Eucharist. Zwingli, Calvin, the Anabaptists all saw either a spiritual only or symbolic presence, while Lutherans and later most Anglicans held to the RP.

Most of what you call latter day protestants did not come out of Lutheran tradition, so they wouldn’t consider Luther or Melanchton or Chemnitz their “bosses”. At least on the real presence, they agree with their “bosses”.

Jon

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Mariology is not an article of faith for Lutherans. As it is not doctrine, but adiaphoron, Lutherans are free to come to their own conclusions on the Blessed Virgin’s perpetual virginity, etc. All Lutherans, however, (should) hold her in the highest regard for her cooperation and obedience in God’s plan for our salvation.

 

[happilycatholic]

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Mariology is not an article of faith for Lutherans. As it is not doctrine, but adiaphoron, Lutherans are free to come to their own conclusions on the Blessed Virgin’s perpetual virginity, etc. All Lutherans, however, (should) hold her in the highest regard for her cooperation and obedience in God’s plan for our salvation.

Thank you Jon. I don’t know why everyone can’t come to this same conclusion and let it go.

 

[Oneheartway]

A few things… Ufam, you don’t need to use a large font to make your point, the color change combined with the large font discouraged rather than encouraged me to read it. It reminds me of those who use all caps in their writing.

In my opinion, your statement that Mary is the spouse of God confuses the issue. I consider Mary, the virgin mother of Jesus, but not the literal spouse of God. I suppose you could argue, as you have, that Mary is the spouse of God and therefore Joseph was to rever her and not touch her. On the other hand, then he probably should not have married her… because she would have been the spouse of God. On the other hand, you may have just helped the polygamists argue their case (I am kidding, so your mormon readers can relax).

Someone asked why I posted this in these forums, the answer is simple… I want to read the opinions of not only catholics but others as well. Why? Well, all catholics are not scholars and all scholars are not catholic. My eyes remain open at all times whether I disagree with someone or not, I try to respect their opinion.

There are other problems with my joining the church.

1. I am not yet convinced Mary remained a virgin. Though I don’t think it should matter. I have not yet convinced myself that Joseph was not the literal brother of Jesus. I have yet to confirm an comment another person made in another of my threads that there was a early father of the church named Ignatius (not Loyola) who supposedly met Joseph and commented how closely he looked like Jesus. The problem with that argument is that this man would have had to met Jesus to be able to make the connection. Again, I am not sure this matters.

According to some, just questioning Mary’s virginity AFTER the birth of christ would make me a bad catholic or not a catholic at all. I know a man who I consider to be a good man who is catholic who tells me he though the whole perpetual virginity was dropped by the church some years ago… his father was once a priest and I often confer through him to check facts… I am waiting on his answer still.

Now to make matters worse, I am a freemason. According to our current Pope I am in a state of grave sin. Still not sure why I am in a state of grave sin. My priest told me that as long as I did not run down the aisles screaming I am a freemason, he had no issue with it. I know the argument, I should just quit the masons and their is no problem. The problem with that is I disagree with the concept that someone is in sin because of who they choose to associate with. I do not worship the devil, we don’t sacrifice virgins, and goats are no longer allowed in our temples because of zoning restrictions (another joke).

So the question I keep asking myself is what am I doing now. I think I want to be catholic, yet I outwardly refuse to accept a statement made by the current leader of the church denouncing my affiliation with masonry and therefore am in grave sin. I also doubt the perpetual virginity of Mary, mother of Jesus. I also made a statement that my prayers are to God. I doubt I will ever ask for the favor of a saint, mary, or anyone else to intercede on my behalf. God is omniscient and omnipotent and I am not really sure he needs an answering service.

What I am trying to determine, since god gave me free will and an intellect to judge for myself, is does God want me to join the catholic church or has he another purpose for me that I have not yet found. Are my questions guidance from the divine to avert my path another way or have I just not yet found the answers that I need so that I could debate my position to another. I would have to say I could not strongly argue against the same questions I am asking, because I do not yet believe unequivocably in the answers given.

Perhaps my task in life is to seek and never find. I read in the first pages of the cathechism that man being made by God seeks God. I KNOW I seek God. I do not know what he wants of me as yet, but I am a willing servant.

Sorry for the random thoughts at the end, I apparently wanted to derail my own thread.

And wmscott, thank you for the link… I will look into them this evening.

 

[happilycatholic]

A few things… Ufam, you don’t need to use a large font to make your point, the color change combined with the large font discouraged rather than encouraged me to read it. It reminds me of those who use all caps in their writing.

In my opinion, your statement that Mary is the spouse of God confuses the issue. I consider Mary, the virgin mother of Jesus, but not the literal spouse of God. I suppose you could argue, as you have, that Mary is the spouse of God and therefore Joseph was to rever her and not touch her. On the other hand, then he probably should not have married her… because she would have been the spouse of God.

 

[wmscott]

I believe the word “until” covers the period up to the birth of Christ. How does that address the time after the birth of Christ?

See:

un·til (http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ubreve.gi...breve.giflhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif)
prep. **1. **Up to the time of: We danced until dawn.
**2. **Before (a specified time): She can’t leave until Friday.
**3. **Scots Unto; to.

conj. **1. **Up to the time that: We walked until it got dark.
**2. **Before: You cannot leave until your work is finished.
**3. **To the point or extent that: I talked until I was hoarse. See Usage Note at till2.

Happycatholic, it does not address anything after Christ birth. There really was not any reason to. Had the Blessed Mother gone on to have other children, it certainly would have been recorded in the Gospels. Those like Sellers1 use this argument to discredit Marian doctrine and the Mother of God. It is an insult to Catholics to try and demote the status of the Blessed Mother, (Luke 1:48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.) the Blessed Mothers Grace stayed with her until she died. A lot of anti-Catholics need to try and tear her down because to do otherwise is to say that the Catholic church is right . Heaven forbid
Christ in observance of the ten commandments, Honored his mother. To have the likes of Sellers1 and the rest of them to show so little Christian Charity to the Mother of God, I wonder how much charity her Son will show to them.

 

[ufamtobie]

Jon

 

[JonNC]

]

 

[ufamtobie]

Jon,

Your own interpetation regarding the Perpetual Virginity of Our Blessed Mother, is of the Holy Spirit who has led you, who has led me, and who has led the Catholic Church from the begining to the Only true conclusion regarding Our Blessed Mother, ETC… The Catholic Church has all the answers wether we believe them or not, I believe it, for Jesus Christ did not build a Bible but built a Church that we can learn and believe through the Holy Spirit the truth.

Jon, you are not far from the Catholic Church, you are just a few steps around the corner from it and I know you are about to come back home soon to the Church. I know you want this, but you feel that leaving the Lutheran church would tear you apart, on the contrary it will make you whole and I know it is the Holy Spirit that has brought me to this conclusion as HE will bring you.

I feel that you want the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church to unite I pray that it will occur, in order for this to happen every Lutheran must abandon their pride and come back home accept the true teachings and it all begins with You.

There is only one Church that is Jesus, built.

Ufam Tobie