Mary and her Virginity

[murtad]

Not in the least. Matthew 1:25 “Joseph had no union with her UNTIL she gave birth to a son.”

You are using a mistranslation. Also, why don’t you use the words Saint Joseph, rather than simply using Joseph? Its more respectable to honour our saints as they are holy people. The correct translation would be “Saint Joseph had no union with her EVEN AFTER she gave birth to a son”.

 

[guanophore]

I asked this question earlier but it’s got lost in the ether so le me try again -

Why do people even think about Mary’s virginity? Why is the fact she remained a virgin, or not, important? How does Mary’s virginal state impact on us, and our salvation?

I honestly don’t understand the obsession with Mary’s virginity. When I’ve refelcted on Mary, her life, her role as the mother of Jesus, whether or not she was a virgin never enters my head. So why is it important?

This is a good question. Mary’s perpetual virginity is part of the One Divine Deposit of Faith that was committed to the Church by the Apostles. It is that Deposit of Faith that we guard so carefully. Even if we cannot see the relevance of any part of it, we are obligated to guard the mysteries. The obsession is not with Mary’s virginity, perse, but to the Truth, which must be protected and defended. If we start saying that any part of the Truth revealed to us by God is not “important” then we are in danger of falling away from the faith that has been preserved in the Church by the power of the HS.

It is important to pray that God will reveal the importance of mysteries that we dont’ understand.

 

[JonNC]

ufamtobie;5459359]

Your own interpetation regarding the Perpetual Virginity of Our Blessed Mother, is of the Holy Spirit who has led you, who has led me, and who has led the Catholic Church from the begining to the Only true conclusion regarding Our Blessed Mother, ETC… The Catholic Church has all the answers wether we believe them or not, I believe it, for Jesus Christ did not build a Bible but built a Church that we can learn and believe through the Holy Spirit the truth.

Jon, you are not far from the Catholic Church, you are just a few steps around the corner from it and I know you are about to come back home soon to the Church. I know you want this, but you feel that leaving the Lutheran church would tear you apart, on the contrary it will make you whole and I know it is the Holy Spirit that has brought me to this conclusion as HE will bring you.

I feel that you want the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church to unite I pray that it will occur, in order for this to happen every Lutheran must abandon their pride and come back home accept the true teachings and it all begins with You.

There is only one Church that is Jesus, built.

Ufam Tobie

Thanks for your nice words. You are correct about my desire to see corporate reconciliation. I believe reconciliation will require all of us to abondon our pride, and submit ourselves to the Holy Spirit’s guidance in our dialogues.

Thanks,

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

This is a good question. Mary’s perpetual virginity is part of the One Divine Deposit of Faith that was committed to the Church by the Apostles. It is that Deposit of Faith that we guard so carefully. Even if we cannot see the relevance of any part of it, we are obligated to guard the mysteries. The obsession is not with Mary’s virginity, perse, but to the Truth, which must be protected and defended. If we start saying that any part of the Truth revealed to us by God is not “important” then we are in danger of falling away from the faith that has been preserved in the Church by the power of the HS.

It is important to pray that God will reveal the importance of mysteries that we dont’ understand.

And, I might add, it’s because, as with all Marian doctrines/dogmas, their significance has to do with our understanding of Christ. **Every doctrine/dogma re-affirms our Christology. **

Take this doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity. It emphasizes the divinity of Jesus by telling us how fitting it was the the womb that housed God Incarnate was set apart just for that purpose! Imagine the Ark of the Covenant in the OT, which housed the sacred Word of God, later being a container for some pretty pebbles. It would diminish the sacredness of the stone tablets.

Thus, every single Marian doctrine and dogma reinforces and highlights the divinity of Christ.

 

[Sellers1]

You are using a mistranslation. Also, why don’t you use the words Saint Joseph, rather than simply using Joseph? Its more respectable to honour our saints as they are holy people. The correct translation would be “Saint Joseph had no union with her EVEN AFTER she gave birth to a son”.

That’s not what the Scriptures say and that is not the meaning of the original greek word used for UNTIL. You are trying to put the good ol’ Catholic spin on it and it doesn’t change the truth. St. Joseph had no union with her UNTIL she gave birth to Jesus. It says what it says. Stop trying to change the meaning to fit your unbiblical dogmas.

 

[Sellers1]

I believe the word “until” covers the period up to the birth of Christ. How does that address the time after the birth of Christ?

See:

un·til (http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ubreve.gi...breve.giflhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif)
prep. **1. **Up to the time of: We danced until dawn.
**2. **Before (a specified time): She can’t leave until Friday.
**3. **Scots Unto; to.

conj. **1. **Up to the time that: We walked until it got dark.
**2. **Before: You cannot leave until your work is finished.
**3. **To the point or extent that: I talked until I was hoarse. See Usage Note at till2.

You just continue to try and ignore the elephant in the room that is about to sit on you and crush you! Please, stop this nonsensical game.

 

[PRmerger]

That’s not what the Scriptures say and that is not the meaning of the original greek word used for UNTIL. You are trying to put the good ol’ Catholic spin on it and it doesn’t change the truth. St. Joseph had no union with her UNTIL she gave birth to Jesus. It says what it says. Stop trying to change the meaning to fit your unbiblical dogmas.

So, Sellers, you believe that Michal had children AFTER she died?

(See 2 Samuel 6:23 And Michal daughter of Saul had no children *until *the day of her death)

 

[PRmerger]

That’s not what the Scriptures say and that is not the meaning of the original greek word used for UNTIL. You are trying to put the good ol’ Catholic spin on it and it doesn’t change the truth. St. Joseph had no union with her UNTIL she gave birth to Jesus. It says what it says. Stop trying to change the meaning to fit your unbiblical dogmas.

And, Sellers, what say you about the use of the word “until” in this verse from Hebrews:

To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
*until *I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”

So *after *enemies are made a footstool Jesus will no longer sit at God’s right hand?

 

[guanophore]

No, because that’s not what Scripture says. We know by what Gabriel told Mary that she would give birth to Jesus as a virgin.

There is nothing in Gabriel’s words’ to Mary that would indicate she was not going to have the child by the normal manner between men and women. Since she was about to get married, why would she not assume that the fruit of her womb would be through her husband?

 

[Sellers1]

So, Sellers, you believe that Michal had children AFTER she died?

(See 2 Samuel 6:23 And Michal daughter of Saul had no children *until *the day of her death)

Different original Greek word used for UNTIL. Besides, Mary didn’t die after she gave birth to Christ. Totally different situation. You can spare me all the mental gymnastics.

 

[PRmerger]

Different original Greek word used for UNTIL. Besides, Mary didn’t die after she gave birth to Christ. Totally different situation. You can spare me all the mental gymnastics.

What’s the original Greek word for “until”?

Was the same Greek word used in Hebrews?

And is a different Greek word for “until” used in Timothy?

1 Timothy 4:13
Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.

Please explain, Sellers!

 

[PRmerger]

Different original Greek word used for UNTIL. Besides, Mary didn’t die after she gave birth to Christ. Totally different situation. You can spare me all the mental gymnastics.

And, it seems that you are saying that sometimes in Scripture the word “until” means one thing, and sometimes it means another in Scripture? That would put you in a very, very precarious situation, Sellers and unable to defend your position.

 

[jpaul1953]

You just continue to try and ignore the elephant in the room that is about to sit on you and crush you! Please, stop this nonsensical game.

Sellers1,

The joke is on you . You honestly believe you have been given the absolute ability to understand Scrpiture better than anyone on these threads and any one in general.

You are disingenuous in your banter. There is no discusion with you,. It’s your way or the Highway. You do understand that the first bridge to collapse will be the unswayable bridge. If you can’t go with the flow you 'll become brittle and collapse.

So before this occurs, I offer you an opportunity to listen and stop speaking in your sarcastic manner. It was written in ‘The Separate Peace’ that: Sarcasm is the protest of those who are weak.’ This is you all over." Trurer words have not been spoken.

Enjoy your final hours abusing all with thought, you will crumble , it’s imminent… The truth is in you. Ha! the sarcasm is in you.

jpaul1953

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

You just continue to try and ignore the elephant in the room that is about to sit on you and crush you! Please, stop this nonsensical game.

WE are ignoring the elephant in the room? At least we’ve attempted to address the other side’s arguments

So how about it? Why would Mary ask what she did if she were not a consecrated virgin?

 

[Good_Fella]

Different original Greek word used for UNTIL.

Matthew 1:25 does read: Joseph knew her “not until” (heos) she bore a son. Protestants erroneously argue that the evangelist means Joseph “had no relations” with his wife Mary “until after” Jesus was born. However, heos never references the future. “Not until” actually means “not up to the point that”. Saul’s daughter Micah was childless “up to the point” of her death, just as Joseph and Mary had no conjugal relations “up to the point” of the birth of Jesus. Matthew is strictly concerned with assuring the Jews whom he was addressing that the Messiah had no biological father as was expected by them, but was born of the Virgin. This passage refers back to Isaiah 7, 14.

Pax :tiphat:

 

[PRmerger]

Matthew 1:25 does read: Joseph knew her “not until” (heos) she bore a son. Protestants erroneously argue that the evangelist means Joseph “had no relations” with his wife Mary “until after” Jesus was born. However, heos never references the future. “Not until” actually means “not up to the point that”. Saul’s daughter Micah was childless “up to the point” of her death, just as Joseph and Mary had no conjugal relations “up to the point” of the birth of Jesus. Matthew is strictly concerned with assuring the Jews whom he was addressing that the Messiah had no biological father as was expected by them, but was born of the Virgin. This passage refers back to Isaiah 7, 14.

Pax :tiphat:

Exactly.

So when Sellers claims:

Originally Posted by Sellers1
Different original Greek word used for UNTIL

he ought to be able to provide the “different original Greek word” used in Samuel (although, presumably it was Hebrew first and then translated into Greek?).

I’m eager to see what “different original Greek” word is used in Samuel.

And, I’m eager to see if Sellers is going to claim that the examples of “until” used in Hebrews and Timothy are also “different original Greek.”

 

[Sellers1]

What’s the original Greek word for “until”?

Was the same Greek word used in Hebrews?

And is a different Greek word for “until” used in Timothy?

1 Timothy 4:13
Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.

Please explain, Sellers!

Let us speak to the verse in question. Joseph did not have union with Mary until the son was born.

Prove that the Greek word used for Until means never. Prove it and you will convince me that you are correct.

 

[Sellers1]

Sellers1,

The joke is on you . You honestly believe you have been given the absolute ability to understand Scrpiture better than anyone on these threads and any one in general.

You are disingenuous in your banter. There is no discusion with you,. It’s your way or the Highway. You do understand that the first bridge to collapse will be the unswayable bridge. If you can’t go with the flow you 'll become brittle and collapse.

So before this occurs, I offer you an opportunity to listen and stop speaking in your sarcastic manner. It was written in ‘The Separate Peace’ that: Sarcasm is the protest of those who are weak.’ This is you all over." Trurer words have not been spoken.

Enjoy your final hours abusing all with thought, you will crumble , it’s imminent… The truth is in you. Ha! the sarcasm is in you.

jpaul1953

I will not respond to to wild insults and unfounded condescendment such as this. You won’t answer the question at hand because you cannot. Period!

 

[Sellers1]

And, it seems that you are saying that sometimes in Scripture the word “until” means one thing, and sometimes it means another in Scripture? That would put you in a very, very precarious situation, Sellers and unable to defend your position.

Scripture solidifies it. I don’t have to. You are the one who won’t accept it.

 

[Sellers1]

What’s the original Greek word for “until”?

Was the same Greek word used in Hebrews?

And is a different Greek word for “until” used in Timothy?

1 Timothy 4:13
Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.

Please explain, Sellers!

You will be hostile and look for any other way rather than reading and believing what the Scriptures say. How crazy is this? Apparently not very crazy for Catholics.