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guanophore
Guest
No one every claimed that the Gk. word meant “never”. You are asking something to be proven to you that we did not assert.
Your attitude is quite insulting and condescending itself! The question you posted above is nonsense, and you are correct, it is not worthy of any attempt to answer it.
Ok, if you believe that “Scripture soldifies it” please show us how that is. Please explain where these other uses of the word “until” say anything about what happens after the event. I especially am intersted in what happens to Jesus after his enemies are put under His feet.
You are right about not accepting it. You are offering what the Apsotles called “a different gospel than what we received” from them. We would be accursed if we accepted it.
Actually, it is you that seems to have a chip on your shoulder here, Sellers1. I am not sure why you are here on CAF, but it seems rather counterproductive to come in here with all this prejudice and disrespect. What are your goals?
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PRmerger
Guest
Sellers, I did not bring up the Greek.
Do you deny posting the above?
So, since you seem to know the “different original Greek words” that were used, what are they?
I think it was someone on these forums who said, “Absence of evidence of a statement is evidence that the statement is false.”
I provided the evidence that you said there’s different Greek words for UNTIL. Now, you give us what the words are, what they meant to the inspired writer and how it could mean than Michal had children after she died.
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PRmerger
Guest
Scripture solidifies that there’s 2 different meanings of the word “until”? Ok.
Please show us where. Chapter and verse, please.
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PRmerger
Guest
I’m not sure what you’re responding to, Sellers.
I simply asked what’s the original Greek word for “until”? How is that hostile?
Remember, *you *claimed it’s a different Greek word. I’m just asking what it is.
Was the same Greek word used in Hebrews?
And is a different Greek word for “until” used in Timothy?
1 Timothy 4:13
Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.
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Tim_Kirchoff
Guest
Luke 1:30-35
30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Maybe you should have opened up your Bible.
J
jlhargus
Guest
Originally Posted by Sellers1
I don’t even have to open my Bible to know that it isn’t true.
Because Gabriel told her that she would be overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Give Mary some credit here. She certainly had the attributes to be the Mother of Christ
I don’t even have to open my Bible to know that it isn’t true.
Because Gabriel told her that she would be overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Give Mary some credit here. She certainly had the attributes to be the Mother of Christ
JL: Amen:thumbsup: Looks like Sellers put the cart before the horse
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happilycatholic
Guest
Oh, the *elephant. *Okay, let’s address the elephant:
The literal Greek in Matt. 1:25 says: “…and he knew her not until she gave birth to a son and called his name Jesus.”
It says nothing about her being a virgin at all. It says he “knew” her not. So why do you not have a problem with the rest of that passage? If you want to translate the passage literally and then apply today’s meaning to it, then you must conclude that it only implies that Joseph did not ‘know’ her. You could not possibly assume what that meant in those times. The same as the words “brother” and “mother”. These words were used rather loosely to mean *brother-ly and mother-ly *rather than in biological terms as they are used today.
Scriptural scholors translated these passages and codified them. I would think they would have translated them in a different manner if Mary had given birth to other children. At best, all you can claim is that they were unsure. No where in the Scriptures is there an ABSOLUTE reference to siblings of Christ, nowhere. You cannot claim it because it is NOT so.
The problem is you CHOOSE to translate the passage this way.
I have these questions for you Sellers:
1.) Do you actually use and study the Greek Scriptures, or are you simply picking passages out and using them to your benefit here? Because if you are, then I could crush YOU right now with the weight of your own error.
2.) Explain with your knowledge of the Greek language, how the Greek word used means Mary had children after the the birth of Christ.
3.) By the way, does my question #2 infer that I believe Mary to be a virgin 'before she conceived Christ? No, I don’t even mention the time period before the birth of Christ. Just because I specify my inquiry to the time period after she conceived Christ by no means implies that I assume she was a virgin at the conception of Christ. See how that works both ways Seller? Oh, and OF COURSE I know Mary was a virgin before the birth of Christ. I was making a point. We all know Mary was ever-virgin. We are simply humoring you’re rediculous claims.
Furthermore, I could use the word ‘until’ this way:
“You cannot have anything to drink until we eat.” OR this way:
“You cannot have dessert until we eat”.
Now Sellers, would you get the same idea from both statements? NO!!!
The first implies that you will get something to drink at the time you eat. The second implies that you will get dessert after you eat. Why? Because in this day, we ASSUME and use these frases to mean we drink AT dinner and eat dessert AFTER dinner.
My point is this, you can neither assume or imply your own meaning to these Scriptural passages using the venacular of today. It simply won’t work. It takes having intimate knowledge of the time period and the people living in that time period to know.
That is why I will stick with the Church that has that intimate knowledge and has passed that down through Tradition since the time of Christ and his Apostles.
You do what you please.
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happilycatholic
Guest
Sellers apparently doesn’t believe the very Bible he claims he reads to be accurate. You know, the one he keeps hurling at catholics as a weapon. His own Bible which he believes to be infallable but yet contains the word ‘until’ which he claims is not accurate instead of the Greek word “ewv” (heh’-oce) or heos as he’s problably familiar with, which he incinuates means something other than ‘until’.
Well Sellers, do you adhere to Sola Scriptura or do you believe it to be fallible? The word “until” does NOT in any way infer that Mary was anything but a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ in any language. Mainly because it does not infer the future at all but rather up to the time Christ is conceived and subsequently born. Period. End.
Well Sellers, do you adhere to Sola Scriptura or do you believe it to be fallible? The word “until” does NOT in any way infer that Mary was anything but a virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ in any language. Mainly because it does not infer the future at all but rather up to the time Christ is conceived and subsequently born. Period. End.
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happilycatholic
Guest
“She certainly had the attributes to be the Mother of Christ”
“Attributes”? Are you serious? Like what, a part of Mary was worthy? Or she had *some *worthy qualities? Are you kidding me? This is how you describe the mother of your Savior? And you think YOU are giving her adequate “credit”?
See, this is where you stop short of knowing the full Truth as catholics know it.
Mary was not just special, she was Holy. She was not just chosen, she was Consecrated. She was forever holy ground to be revered as such. She was one with Christ in the flesh and therefore blessed, even among all other women.
If Christ were not to be born of a women recognized as Holy, he would have been born anonymously. We would never have known Mary. Jesus could have just as easily walked onto the scene as a grown man to begin his ministry to mankind.
Instead, we see how Mary was consecrated to her service to not only God, but mankind. She was to be the mother of us all and to replace the sinful one we began with. Her unique motherhood was a full communion with the Holy Spirit and as such, with us all. **EDIT: Also, IMHO, the reason she was not only acknowleged as blessed at Christ’s birth, but also very involved in his ministry. His very last words to John were a ministry to mankind. What do you think “Behold your Mother” meant? Hey John, take care of mom for me?
Mary is not *just *a ‘parent’. She is not just the woman who gave birth to a man we came to know as the Christ. She was always, from the beginning of time, known to the Holy Spirit as the mother of our Savior. She is the origin of Christ as flesh in communion with the Holy Spirit and was chosen to be such by the Holy Spirit himself. She is consecrated as such. This is the way Gabriel saw her and the way he relayed God’s message to her and the reason she knew the world would call her ‘blessed’.
If you can’t see Mary in the same light as the Holy Spirit sees her, then you may have a problem come judgement day. You may be asked to explain why. What will you say Sellers (and others)?
Mary deserves more than the “credit” you probably have to try really hard to give her.
Peace Be With You.
“Attributes”? Are you serious? Like what, a part of Mary was worthy? Or she had *some *worthy qualities? Are you kidding me? This is how you describe the mother of your Savior? And you think YOU are giving her adequate “credit”?
See, this is where you stop short of knowing the full Truth as catholics know it.
Mary was not just special, she was Holy. She was not just chosen, she was Consecrated. She was forever holy ground to be revered as such. She was one with Christ in the flesh and therefore blessed, even among all other women.
If Christ were not to be born of a women recognized as Holy, he would have been born anonymously. We would never have known Mary. Jesus could have just as easily walked onto the scene as a grown man to begin his ministry to mankind.
Instead, we see how Mary was consecrated to her service to not only God, but mankind. She was to be the mother of us all and to replace the sinful one we began with. Her unique motherhood was a full communion with the Holy Spirit and as such, with us all. **EDIT: Also, IMHO, the reason she was not only acknowleged as blessed at Christ’s birth, but also very involved in his ministry. His very last words to John were a ministry to mankind. What do you think “Behold your Mother” meant? Hey John, take care of mom for me?
Mary is not *just *a ‘parent’. She is not just the woman who gave birth to a man we came to know as the Christ. She was always, from the beginning of time, known to the Holy Spirit as the mother of our Savior. She is the origin of Christ as flesh in communion with the Holy Spirit and was chosen to be such by the Holy Spirit himself. She is consecrated as such. This is the way Gabriel saw her and the way he relayed God’s message to her and the reason she knew the world would call her ‘blessed’.
If you can’t see Mary in the same light as the Holy Spirit sees her, then you may have a problem come judgement day. You may be asked to explain why. What will you say Sellers (and others)?
Mary deserves more than the “credit” you probably have to try really hard to give her.
Peace Be With You.
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happilycatholic
Guest
Prove that the word ‘until’ means before AND after.
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jpaul1953
Guest
Happily Catholic,
That was a magnificent job you did explaining our Blessed Mother for Catholics and non-Catholics. Sellers1 upsets me at times. I said he was like a bridge that couldn’t sway and when things get tough, the bridge will collapse.
I’ve heard it said many times that the most difficult transition for any and all converts to the Church is adopting our belief in our Blessed Mother. But, when they do they love her with incredible emotion and respect.
May God bless Sellers1 by taking down all the walls that hide the true Sellers1 from us here at Catholic Answers Forums.
ONCE AGAIN, YOU DID A MAGNIFICENT JOB. THANK YOU.
jpaul1953
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Tim_Kirchoff
Guest
In short, Sellers, the only Biblical “proofs” you have offerred in regards to Mary’s virginity hinge on words with ambiguous meanings. Do you have any other examples, or would you like to keep discussing the significance of Mary and Gabriel’s conversation at the Annunciation? 
J
Joe_Brown
Guest
BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
Mary
Lk 1:28, 30 - angel: "full of grace, found favor with God
Lk 1:42 - Elizabeth: “most blessed among women”
Lk 1:48 - Mary: “all generations will call me blessed”
Mother of God
Lk 1:43 - Elizabeth calls her “mother of my Lord” = God
Mt 1:23 - virgin bear a son, Emmanuel = “God is with us”
Lk 1:35 - child born will be called holy, the Son of God
Gal 4:4 - God sent his Son, born of a woman
The Assumption
Gn 5:24 (Hb 11:5) - Enoch taken to heaven without dying
2Kg 2:11 - Elijah assumed into heaven in fiery chariot
Mt 27:52 - many saints who had fallen asleep were raised
1Thess 4:17 - caught up to meet the Lord in the air
1Cor 15:52 - we shall be instantly changed at the last trumpet
Rom 6:23 - for the wages of sin is death
Rev 11:19-21 - ark in heaven = woman clothed in sun
Ps 132:8 - Arise, O Lord & go to thy resting place, thou & the ark of thy might
The Immaculate Conception
Lk 1:28 - hail full of grace[highly favored] Lord is with you
Lk 1:30 - you have found favor with God
Lk 1:37 - for with God nothing shall be impossible
Gn 3:15 - complete enmity between woman & Satan, sin
Ex 25:11-21 - ark made of purest gold for God’s word
*Rom 3:23 - all have sinned & are deprived of God’s glory
*Lk 1:47 - my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
Perpetual Virginity
Lk 1:34 - how can this be, since I do not know man
Lk 2:41-51 - age 12, Jesus evidently only son of Mary
Mk 6:3 - “the son of Mary” not “a son of Mary”
*Mt 13:55-56 - brothers James, Joseph, Simon & Jude
Mt 27:56 - Mary the mother of James & Joseph also
Jn 19:25 - Mary the wife of Clopas
Jn 19:26 - entrusted Mary to John, not a younger sibling
Jn 7:3-4 - brothers advise like elders: “go to Judea, manifest self”
unthinkable for younger siblings (see next verse)
Mk 3:21 - set out to seize him, “he is out of his mind”
*Mt 1:25 - Joseph knew her not until she bore first-born
Mt 28:20 - I am with you always, until the end of the age
1Tim 4:13 - until I arrive, attend to reading, teaching…
1Cor 15:25 - he must reign until has enemies underfoot
Lk 1:80 - John in desert until day of his manifestation
Ex 13:2; Nb 3:12 - consecrate first -born that opens womb
Ex 34:20 - first-born among your sons you shall redeem
Mary
Lk 1:28, 30 - angel: "full of grace, found favor with God
Lk 1:42 - Elizabeth: “most blessed among women”
Lk 1:48 - Mary: “all generations will call me blessed”
Mother of God
Lk 1:43 - Elizabeth calls her “mother of my Lord” = God
Mt 1:23 - virgin bear a son, Emmanuel = “God is with us”
Lk 1:35 - child born will be called holy, the Son of God
Gal 4:4 - God sent his Son, born of a woman
The Assumption
Gn 5:24 (Hb 11:5) - Enoch taken to heaven without dying
2Kg 2:11 - Elijah assumed into heaven in fiery chariot
Mt 27:52 - many saints who had fallen asleep were raised
1Thess 4:17 - caught up to meet the Lord in the air
1Cor 15:52 - we shall be instantly changed at the last trumpet
Rom 6:23 - for the wages of sin is death
Rev 11:19-21 - ark in heaven = woman clothed in sun
Ps 132:8 - Arise, O Lord & go to thy resting place, thou & the ark of thy might
The Immaculate Conception
Lk 1:28 - hail full of grace[highly favored] Lord is with you
Lk 1:30 - you have found favor with God
Lk 1:37 - for with God nothing shall be impossible
Gn 3:15 - complete enmity between woman & Satan, sin
Ex 25:11-21 - ark made of purest gold for God’s word
*Rom 3:23 - all have sinned & are deprived of God’s glory
*Lk 1:47 - my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
Perpetual Virginity
Lk 1:34 - how can this be, since I do not know man
Lk 2:41-51 - age 12, Jesus evidently only son of Mary
Mk 6:3 - “the son of Mary” not “a son of Mary”
*Mt 13:55-56 - brothers James, Joseph, Simon & Jude
Mt 27:56 - Mary the mother of James & Joseph also
Jn 19:25 - Mary the wife of Clopas
Jn 19:26 - entrusted Mary to John, not a younger sibling
Jn 7:3-4 - brothers advise like elders: “go to Judea, manifest self”
unthinkable for younger siblings (see next verse)
Mk 3:21 - set out to seize him, “he is out of his mind”
*Mt 1:25 - Joseph knew her not until she bore first-born
Mt 28:20 - I am with you always, until the end of the age
1Tim 4:13 - until I arrive, attend to reading, teaching…
1Cor 15:25 - he must reign until has enemies underfoot
Lk 1:80 - John in desert until day of his manifestation
Ex 13:2; Nb 3:12 - consecrate first -born that opens womb
Ex 34:20 - first-born among your sons you shall redeem
W
wmscott
Guest
He is centered on one word, and the fact that he does not offer anything else as a reference to the contraryIn short, Sellers, the only Biblical “proofs” you have offerred in regards to Mary’s virginity hinge on words with ambiguous meanings. Do you have any other examples, or would you like to keep discussing the significance of Mary and Gabriel’s conversation at the Annunciation?
J
Joe_Brown
Guest
read the full quotes, these are just sections
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Sellers1
Guest
You have proven nothing. Please stop.
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Sellers1
Guest
S
Sellers1
Guest
What are you talking about?
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Sellers1
Guest
Biting off your face despite your nose is nonsensical. You running over the same dead dog in the road instead of reading what the Scriptures say regarding the subject matter and knowing it as truth. Why are you so defiant? Why isn’t the inherant word of God good enough for you? Perhaps it’s the same reason why Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross isn’t enough for you either. I’ll pray for you tonight to have peace in your soul.
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