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blinds8
Guest
Discussions like this are why I like my Bible and the book of James.
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Christ_Bearer
Guest
KathleenGee… I am in this forum because I am being challenged by many of my own misconceptions about the Catholic Church. I know I have them and would like them dealt with. At the same time I am still quite sure that some are NOT misconceptions but bear witness to what Catholics actually teach.
As far as the magnificat where Mary says “all generations will call me blessed”. I have always been perplexed at the extrapolation that Catholics use to interpret this verse. Of course I call Mary blessed that she was chosen to carry the Messiah in her womb, that is extraordinary, but I don’t think she had in mind anything close to what the Catholic Church has made it to become.
As far as the magnificat where Mary says “all generations will call me blessed”. I have always been perplexed at the extrapolation that Catholics use to interpret this verse. Of course I call Mary blessed that she was chosen to carry the Messiah in her womb, that is extraordinary, but I don’t think she had in mind anything close to what the Catholic Church has made it to become.
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KathleenGee
Guest
I don’t think faith in Christ is something you toss up in the air and then what ever falls down on your mindset is yours alone.
God has called us to communion, not only with Him, but with each other. And there are non-denominational Protestant congregations who do not see us as Christians, and likewise, are not open to study early Church history as the OP is, and end up being, well, not so much intolerant, but condemning.
Prayers can end up being relative rather than absolute. I like the term used by a Universalist friend…‘don’t get into stupid praying where you are passive and tolerating evil.’
There is such a thing as willful ignorance.
It is a matter about Truth in Christ.
God has called us to communion, not only with Him, but with each other. And there are non-denominational Protestant congregations who do not see us as Christians, and likewise, are not open to study early Church history as the OP is, and end up being, well, not so much intolerant, but condemning.
Prayers can end up being relative rather than absolute. I like the term used by a Universalist friend…‘don’t get into stupid praying where you are passive and tolerating evil.’
There is such a thing as willful ignorance.
It is a matter about Truth in Christ.
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Christ_Bearer
Guest
I must ask what is the OP?
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SteveVH
Guest
Nor do Catholics.
And who have we put before him?
According to who? You?
Well then they are not going to the Catholic Church
Then you go to a church that is in grave error. Mary is not a divine woman. She is as human as you and I.
Please show me in the Bible where it says this. Sounds like a tradition of men to me.
Dead? Do you not believe that those who are in heaven are alive?
I believe that the OP is asking Catholics for answers. Please refrain from inserting more lies into what Catholics believe. We are perfectly capable of answering for ourselves.
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SteveVH
Guest
Original Poster.
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KathleenGee
Guest
You…Original Poster.
As you are being blessed to search for the roots of your and our faith in Christ, going back to ancient times, the early Christians already considered Mary conceived without sin and worthy of remembrance and veneration. Within 200 years of her death, her presence became known through petitioning her help through her prayers in heaven.
The other issue is what is the nature of the Church?
We as Catholics look to the whole of Sacred Scriptures as Jesus Himself, the Eternal Word. And He instituted His Church, not incongruous gatherings of disconnected individuals pondering His Word, but an institutional Church with consecrated souls of spirit and truth, chosen by Christ. This is especially so as there were no Bibles printed for common believers until we had the means through the invention of the printing press.
Likewise at that time, there were still some gaps in the theology of the nature of Christ Himself that were completely defined at the Council of Nicea in the mid 300’s. There was much reflection on Christ through philosophy and Scripture, but theologians would always submit their work for discernment to the Church. We are a gathering of believers, bonded in Christ, not individuals per se.
Subsequently, our faith is based on the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ through His apostles. We recognize churches as authentic when their founders are the actual Apostles themselves.
We look at Scriptures as God as the Author, but there are different levels of understanding, but they are primarily reflecting and relating to human events, people, in the course of salvation history.
So to want to go back and study the background of your faith is a great sign of grace of the Holy Spirit.
Both the Jewish form of administration – one head vs the conciliar model were tested in the earliest times, but the Jewish model ended up being the most workable…and so we had bishop with presbyters, deacons and priests for the hierarchy. There were various patriarchs of regions of faith, and Rome was seen as the final answer to disputes, as well as being the support to the other churches in their beginnings.
Practically all the books of the Bible were approved and read at liturgies by 100 A.D., the exception being the Book of Hebrews because there was not enough consensus that this book was inspired by the Holy Spirit for public revelation. There were many books that were discerned as not inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Gospel of Thomas was recognized as having the Holy Spirit but only for private use, not public.
So the episcopal hierarchy of administration, the liturgy of the Mass was essentially set by 100 A.D., along with the Creed as well as well as use of most books Scripture were already in use, but mainly through the readings of letters at Mass in the oral tradition. People listened and reflected more than reading.
The Books of Scripture, the liturgy, the Creed were uniform in belief and practice throughout the entire ancient Christian world at that time. Mary was venerated after her death, primarily as Theotokos, Mother of God. The ancients believed she was conceived without sin.
What came about in time was the science of Christology and spirituality, ascetism. In time there came about recognition of the same pattern of growth in faith in Christ in various parts of Christianity that were universal to all believers. But as these patterns were established, considering the belief Mary was conceived without sin…but not a doctrine of faith…was that her walk in perfection was different than ours because she did not sin. The wages of sin is death.
It wasn’t until the mid 1800’s that dogma was declared that Mary was conceived without sin. My point here is that it took the Church all that time to finally make a definitive statement about Mary…this coming from the authority of the Church overseeing the faith of believers.
There are times the Church can declare a dogma that are not from Scripture…but from the result of apostolic, consistent faith in practice down through the ages, lived out faith that is identifiable by all believers irregardless of the particular culture, ethnicity or language…a faith that is lived out in Christ that is recognized throughout the universal Church and bears the fruit of Jesus Christ.
True devotion to Mary always leads to Christ.
As you are being blessed to search for the roots of your and our faith in Christ, going back to ancient times, the early Christians already considered Mary conceived without sin and worthy of remembrance and veneration. Within 200 years of her death, her presence became known through petitioning her help through her prayers in heaven.
The other issue is what is the nature of the Church?
We as Catholics look to the whole of Sacred Scriptures as Jesus Himself, the Eternal Word. And He instituted His Church, not incongruous gatherings of disconnected individuals pondering His Word, but an institutional Church with consecrated souls of spirit and truth, chosen by Christ. This is especially so as there were no Bibles printed for common believers until we had the means through the invention of the printing press.
Likewise at that time, there were still some gaps in the theology of the nature of Christ Himself that were completely defined at the Council of Nicea in the mid 300’s. There was much reflection on Christ through philosophy and Scripture, but theologians would always submit their work for discernment to the Church. We are a gathering of believers, bonded in Christ, not individuals per se.
Subsequently, our faith is based on the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ through His apostles. We recognize churches as authentic when their founders are the actual Apostles themselves.
We look at Scriptures as God as the Author, but there are different levels of understanding, but they are primarily reflecting and relating to human events, people, in the course of salvation history.
So to want to go back and study the background of your faith is a great sign of grace of the Holy Spirit.
Both the Jewish form of administration – one head vs the conciliar model were tested in the earliest times, but the Jewish model ended up being the most workable…and so we had bishop with presbyters, deacons and priests for the hierarchy. There were various patriarchs of regions of faith, and Rome was seen as the final answer to disputes, as well as being the support to the other churches in their beginnings.
Practically all the books of the Bible were approved and read at liturgies by 100 A.D., the exception being the Book of Hebrews because there was not enough consensus that this book was inspired by the Holy Spirit for public revelation. There were many books that were discerned as not inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Gospel of Thomas was recognized as having the Holy Spirit but only for private use, not public.
So the episcopal hierarchy of administration, the liturgy of the Mass was essentially set by 100 A.D., along with the Creed as well as well as use of most books Scripture were already in use, but mainly through the readings of letters at Mass in the oral tradition. People listened and reflected more than reading.
The Books of Scripture, the liturgy, the Creed were uniform in belief and practice throughout the entire ancient Christian world at that time. Mary was venerated after her death, primarily as Theotokos, Mother of God. The ancients believed she was conceived without sin.
What came about in time was the science of Christology and spirituality, ascetism. In time there came about recognition of the same pattern of growth in faith in Christ in various parts of Christianity that were universal to all believers. But as these patterns were established, considering the belief Mary was conceived without sin…but not a doctrine of faith…was that her walk in perfection was different than ours because she did not sin. The wages of sin is death.
It wasn’t until the mid 1800’s that dogma was declared that Mary was conceived without sin. My point here is that it took the Church all that time to finally make a definitive statement about Mary…this coming from the authority of the Church overseeing the faith of believers.
There are times the Church can declare a dogma that are not from Scripture…but from the result of apostolic, consistent faith in practice down through the ages, lived out faith that is identifiable by all believers irregardless of the particular culture, ethnicity or language…a faith that is lived out in Christ that is recognized throughout the universal Church and bears the fruit of Jesus Christ.
True devotion to Mary always leads to Christ.
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Trishie
Guest
If you love someone, don’t you also value the people they love.
Of all women throughout time God chose Mary.God chose her as a woman 'full of grace" full of God’s life. He sure didn’t choose me or any other woman.
For 30 years Mary was the most important human in the life of Jesus Christ, incarnate Son of the living God. As an instant He utterly depended on her, to feed him, change His diaper/nappy, bath Him, and with Joseph, to teach Him to speak, to walk and ordinary life skills…because God chose not to come amongst us, as He could have done, as a glorious fully formed adult. By becoming a little child He made ordinary humanity, ordinary daily life, sacred. He loved His mother…and if we do not, then might He not be a little hurt?
Jesus is Lord of Creation, so that sure doesn’t make His mother the scullery maid! Whether we call her Queen of heaven, or Lady, or simply Mary, as the mother of God incarnate and as choice of God and loved of Jesus, is she not perhaps the greatest of women of all time. By choosing her, the Trinity has proclaimed so. By loving her, her Son has made her so.
We don’t worship Mary. We do love her, as Jesus loved His mother. We love Him. Why would we not love whom He loved.
From the Cross, his body shattered, his eyes fading, his mouth dry with thirst, He still thought of His mother, and ask John His one present apostle, to welcome her as his own mother, basically to look after her when He was gone, so John too her to his home and cared for her.
Of all women throughout time God chose Mary.God chose her as a woman 'full of grace" full of God’s life. He sure didn’t choose me or any other woman.
For 30 years Mary was the most important human in the life of Jesus Christ, incarnate Son of the living God. As an instant He utterly depended on her, to feed him, change His diaper/nappy, bath Him, and with Joseph, to teach Him to speak, to walk and ordinary life skills…because God chose not to come amongst us, as He could have done, as a glorious fully formed adult. By becoming a little child He made ordinary humanity, ordinary daily life, sacred. He loved His mother…and if we do not, then might He not be a little hurt?
Jesus is Lord of Creation, so that sure doesn’t make His mother the scullery maid! Whether we call her Queen of heaven, or Lady, or simply Mary, as the mother of God incarnate and as choice of God and loved of Jesus, is she not perhaps the greatest of women of all time. By choosing her, the Trinity has proclaimed so. By loving her, her Son has made her so.
We don’t worship Mary. We do love her, as Jesus loved His mother. We love Him. Why would we not love whom He loved.
From the Cross, his body shattered, his eyes fading, his mouth dry with thirst, He still thought of His mother, and ask John His one present apostle, to welcome her as his own mother, basically to look after her when He was gone, so John too her to his home and cared for her.
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KathleenGee
Guest
I hope men do not see women as baby machines…especially Blessed Mother.
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Trishie
Guest
Scriptural support for why we ask Mary’s intercession,
Jesus HIMSELF demonstrated His approval of Mary’s intercession, but accepting it, and responding to it:
In scripture we see the first example of Mary’s intercession
She was in the presence of God Incarnate, the Lord Jesus, and He not only accepted it,
but he acceded to her request and grant the first recorded miracle of Jesus,
even though He had protested that it was not yet time for signs, miracles.
Therefore we have Jesus own approval of His Mother as intercessor for others in need.
Therefore we ask her prayers, just as you would ask the prayer of another person, except that Mary was so good that the Angel called her blessed. Luke 1
It wasn’t even a matter of life or death, just possible loss of face of the hosts, of the wedding feast of Cana.
John 2 Jesus Changes Water Into Wine
" 1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
4 “Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.
7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.
8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”
They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”
11What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him." [John 2:1-11]
Who can argue with Jesus who responded to His mother’s faith and intercession for others in need?!
Jesus HIMSELF demonstrated His approval of Mary’s intercession, but accepting it, and responding to it:
In scripture we see the first example of Mary’s intercession
She was in the presence of God Incarnate, the Lord Jesus, and He not only accepted it,
but he acceded to her request and grant the first recorded miracle of Jesus,
even though He had protested that it was not yet time for signs, miracles.
Therefore we have Jesus own approval of His Mother as intercessor for others in need.
Therefore we ask her prayers, just as you would ask the prayer of another person, except that Mary was so good that the Angel called her blessed. Luke 1
It wasn’t even a matter of life or death, just possible loss of face of the hosts, of the wedding feast of Cana.
John 2 Jesus Changes Water Into Wine
" 1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
4 “Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.
7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.
8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”
They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”
11What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him." [John 2:1-11]
Who can argue with Jesus who responded to His mother’s faith and intercession for others in need?!
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Anna_Scott
Guest
blinds8,
I agree that we are to pray that God’s truth will be revealed to us.
However, there is a great lack of charity in your response to KathleenGee. Kathleen is not sandblasting anyone. I’ve known Kathleen for a long time. She is devoted to our Lord. She does not worship Mary. No Catholic worships Mary.
The OP has asked specific questions for Catholics, and Catholics are answering them.
Peace,
Anna
J
JRKH
Guest
Welcome.
Obviously you are going to get a LOT of answers on this
but what the heck - I’m going to jump in too.Your question actually covers more than one conception or misconception about what Catholics believe and do.
First - let me address the idea of “Pray”…To most people the term pray seems synonymous with “worship”, yet the term pray also means “to ask”. This usage is somewhat archaic now, but some years ago it was not uncommon to ask, “Pray tell me…”, or something like this. Today we would say “Please tell me…” but either would be grammatically correct. So you can perhaps see how there can be confusion over this term. Where someone might be directing a prayer TO Mary, it is still asking that Mary pray with us.
Second - there is the problem of the communion of Saints…Some Protestants hold that those who are dead cannot hear our prayers etc…So they see prayers to saints as being pointless. However Catholics believe that those who have died in Christ are already with Him in heaven and can indeed hear our prayers. This referred to as the Church triumphant. We here on Earth are called the Church militant. So, since we believe that the Church triumphant can hear our prayers, our asking intercession from the saints is no different than my asking you to pray for me - or for some intention of mine…
Third, is the sense of needing to find this or that “in the Bible”. You yourself are learning some interesting things “not in the bible” but in the ECF’s. Also - what constitutes “Venerating” as it pertains to What is in the Bible…
For instance…
In the Gospels, was it necessary to the miracle at Cana to have the servants go to Mary first? Was it necessary to record the events involving her? Certainly leaving her out would not have detracted from the miracle.
Likewise. was it necessary to the story of salvation to record Jesus words to John and to Mary from the Cross?
Again - in Acts, was it necessary to make mention of Mary at all?
Certainly mentioning Mary in connection with Christ’s birth was necessary to the Salvation story, but the other mentions were not. So one could easily say that their inclusion were because the writers (and the Holy Spirit) thought very highly of the Mother of God. In other words, they looked up to her, Loved her, cherished her, the “venerated her”.
I hope this helps some.
Peace
James
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KathleenGee
Guest
Thanks, Anna…
And as Trish has pointed out, it was Mary who requested the Lord begin His work ‘before His time’. She was at the foot of the Cross…through St. John she became mother for all of us, she advised the apostles regarding her personal knowledge of Christ.
St. Ambrose wrote a beautiful piece on Mary written very long ago. I will look it up…
And as Trish has pointed out, it was Mary who requested the Lord begin His work ‘before His time’. She was at the foot of the Cross…through St. John she became mother for all of us, she advised the apostles regarding her personal knowledge of Christ.
St. Ambrose wrote a beautiful piece on Mary written very long ago. I will look it up…
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SonCatcher
Guest
Be careful about whom you ask. I have observed more dissenters and heretics invoke the term “true Catholic” than those who are faithful. 
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 13:12[/BIBLEDRB]
As did St. John:
[BIBLEDRB]1 John 3:2[/BIBLEDRB]
Simply put, we do not yet share God’s Beatific Vision, since we are still “in exile”. Those who have gone before us, including the mother of Jesus, are in His presence in a way we will not be until we join them.
St. Paul already explained this quite eloquently:
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 13:12[/BIBLEDRB]
As did St. John:
[BIBLEDRB]1 John 3:2[/BIBLEDRB]
Simply put, we do not yet share God’s Beatific Vision, since we are still “in exile”. Those who have gone before us, including the mother of Jesus, are in His presence in a way we will not be until we join them.
po18guy
Well-known member
Welcome! Did you know that the Orthodox Churches have even greater devotions to her than the Catholic? Yes. Yet, no one criticizes them. Odd, huh? Anyway, the first to venerate her was God, Who sent Gabriel to announce that Mary, among all women who would ever exist, would bear His only begotten Son (Luke 1:26). Her flesh alone would give flesh to our Salvation. Next to venerate her? Elizabeth. “Blessed are you among women”, “Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Not "my Lord’, but the “mother of my Lord.” Next (or first)? Jesus Himself, Who created her to be His mother (John 1:1-3). His obedience to her command “Do whatever He tells you” (John 2:5) brought about the inception of miracles. Jesus remained with her, and she with Him, from virgin womb (Isaiah 7:14, Luke 1:27) to virgin tomb (Matthew 27:60, Luke 23:53). These are but a few of the reasons. There are many more reasons from scripture alone.
Have a look at this video, which substantially explains the Catholic and Orthodox view of Mary from scripture: youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA
An excellent resource for you is the book Catholicism for Dummies. Every Christian should have a copy. It would lead to increased unity, rather than division.
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Bill1940
Guest
Dear Christ Bearer: Your questioning why we venerate Mary reminded me of the angel Gabriel’s greeting to Mary related in the Gospel of Saint Luke Chapter 1, verse 28. "And when the angel had come to her, he said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women”. Should we regard her less than does the angel Gabriel?
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KathleenGee
Guest
Good points…
When OP asks for ‘true Catholics’, I don’t think he is asking for perfect people, but those that that don’t dissent.
May be better to state, ‘Curious Protestant seeking answers from non-dissenting Catholics’ or something like that…don’t think people here are seeing themselves as super catholics.
When OP asks for ‘true Catholics’, I don’t think he is asking for perfect people, but those that that don’t dissent.
May be better to state, ‘Curious Protestant seeking answers from non-dissenting Catholics’ or something like that…don’t think people here are seeing themselves as super catholics.
po18guy
Well-known member
Especially considering that angels speak precisely what God tells them to. What Gabriel said was exactly what God thinks. Nothing more and nothing less.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
We venerate Mary for the same reason that Jews venerate Rachel. Since veneration of Rachel and the other OT saints is older than Christianity, you should rethink this line of reasoning.
L
Link0126
Guest
Yes, exactly. The oldest Christian Churches that can actually be traced historically to the Apostolic era have these practices of prayers and veneration of Mary. It is only the ones that have grown out of the reformation, a schism in the body of Christ, that reject it.
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