Mary, co-redeemer and co-mediator

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ScottH:
So, its the Holy Spirit that coerced you folks into Marian idolotry?

You are half right. I think it was a spirit.
Just not a “Holy” one.
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Wow! was that an evil thing to say.
 
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ScottH:
and how that role doesn’t jive with scripture.

QUOTE]

I’m a little tired about how you declare how things don’t jive with (your personal interpretation of) Scripture.

You can tell me what Scripture says when the 27,000 denominations of Protestant Sola Scriptura-ists stop bickering with each other over the “clear meaning of scripture”. Sola Scriptura is an obviously fraudulent and invalid tradition and a mere exercise in moral relativism and egocentrism.

geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/staplessolascriptura.html
geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/solascriptura21.html
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St. Gregory of Nyssa (c. 330-c. 395):
Eve brought in sin by means of a tree; Mary, on the contrary, brought in Good by means of the tree of the Cross.
 
St. John Chrysostom (c. 347-407)
A virgin [Eve] has cast us out from paradise; through a virgin [Mary] we have found eternal life.
 
St. Cyril of Alexandria (d. 444), at the Council of Ephesus in 431 (which both Orthodox and Anglicans accept), prayed:
Hail, Mary, Mother of God, . . . by whom the human race reaches the knowledge of the truth.
 
St. Germanus, Patriarch of Constantinople (c. 634-c. 733)
No one is saved except through you, O Theotokos; no one secured a gift of mercy, save through you . . . in you all peoples of the earth have obtained a blessing.
 
St. Andrew of Crete (c. 660-740) referred to Mary as the “Mediatrix of the law and grace” and also stated that “she is the mediation between the sublimity of God and the abjection of the flesh.”
 
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DeFide:
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ScottH:
and how that role doesn’t jive with scripture.

QUOTE]

I’m a little tired about how you declare how things don’t jive with (your personal interpretation of) Scripture.

You can tell me what Scripture says when the 27,000 denominations of Protestant Sola Scriptura-ists stop bickering with each other
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over the “clear meaning of scripture”. Sola Scriptura is an obviously fraudulent and invalid tradition and a mere exercise in moral relativism and egocentrism.

geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/staplessolascriptura.html
geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/solascriptura21.html

Isn’t it amazing, though that with all those individual interpretations and all those denominations, we can all agree that Mariology is a human invention, that our faith is solely by grace and not works, that justification is by faith alone through grace alone in Christ alone, that the Word of God is the ultimate authority, that the 10 commandments include the 2nd, and that a host of other things in catholic doctrine are contrary to the Word of God.
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St. John of Damascus (c. 675-c. 749) spoke of Mary fulfilling the “office of Mediatrix.”
 
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RonWI:
So?
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At the risk of sounding childish. So what? What are you saying **so **for? Mickey is posting some of the quotes from the early church fathers to show how they felt about Mary. Does this bother you? If its just a matter of it being unimportant to you, then post on a subject that you care about.
 
VI. MARY AS INTERCESSOR, MEDIATRIX, AND SPIRITUAL MOTHER
  1. John 19:26-27 “When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! (27) Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own {home}.”
Many scholars, and not just Catholic ones (e.g., Lightfoot) suggest that in a text to which John attaches such importance more is involved than simply asking the disciple to take care of Mary. Jesus addresses his Mother first. In Gen 3:20 we find that “Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.” Likewise, John, who represented Christians, was to consider Mary his “mother,” since she, as the Second Eve, is a type of the Church, and the Spiritual Mother of all Christians. To take it further, the Church is also a “mother” of Christians (Gal 4:26), since it nurtures and guides them into the fullness of the faith. Jesus’ phrase evokes the OT covenant formula of 2 Sam 7:14: “I will be his father, and he shall be my son . . .”
  1. Revelation 12:1,5,17 “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars . . . And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and {to} his throne . . . And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” {Cf. Ps 2:9)
This woman is the mother of the Messiah, Jesus Christ (12:5) and also of Christian disciples (12:17); possibly an extension of the Mary/Eve symbolism of Jn 19:26-7 (the same John may have written both). She is in conflict with a dragon who in 12:9 is identified with the ancient serpent of Genesis (cf. Gen 3:15 which also has Marian import). It would not be unusual for this passage to have a double symbolic interpretation, referring both to Mary and the Church (of which Mary is a type, anyway).
  1. Mary as a Type of the Church: Just before the scene in heaven described in Rev 12 (the immediate preceding verse: 11:19), the ark of the covenant appears in the “temple of God.” This is no coincidence, given the Mary/Ark parallelism as examined previously (it should be noted that the original Bible had no verses or chapters either). Mary symbolizes both the whole people of Israel and the Church. As Israel produces the Messiah, so Mary bears Him and gives birth to the Church in that same act. She is the first Christian, and the Mother of believers, in the sense that Abraham is called the Father of believers. Abraham inaugurated the Old Covenant by an act of faith. Mary does the same at the dawn of the New Covenant.
Moreover, Mary appears to fulfill the typology of the “Daughter of Zion”, who is the personification of Israel (see Lam 1:15*; 2:13; Is 62:5*; 62:11; Jer 4:31; Micah 4:10; Zech 2:10; 9:9; Zeph 3:14; cf. Rev 21:2-3 / * = described as a “virgin”). In Zeph 3:14 and Zech 9:9, the Gk. word “chaire” (“hail”) appears in the Septuagint (the Gk. translation of the OT in the 3rd century B.C.). This is the same word as that in Lk 1:28 (“Hail, full of grace . . .”). “Chaire” is used in prophecies regarding the messianic deliverance of the Jews.

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ153.HTM
contd
 
THE SUB TUUM** (oldest marian prayer discovered on ancient Egyptian papyrus around 250ad)**
**We fly to your patronage,
0 holy Mother of God;
despise not our prayers in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all dangers,
O glorious and blessed Virgin. **
 
cont
  1. Mary as Mediatrix:
    There is but one mediator (1 Tim 2:5-6). But Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men originates not in any inner necessity but in the disposition of God. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Jesus Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. It does not hinder in any way the immediate union of the faithful with Jesus Christ but on the contrary fosters it. The Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, benefactress, and Mediatrix. This, however, is so understood that it neither takes away anything from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Jesus Christ the one Mediator . . . The unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.
{Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, ch. 8, “Our Lady”, III, 60,62}

Mary cooperates in the application of the grace of Redemption to man. She participates in the distribution of grace by her maternal intercession which is far inferior in efficacy to that of the intercessory prayer of Jesus Christ, the High Priest, but surpasses far the intercessory prayer of all the other saints . . . [We are not] obliged to beg for all graces through Mary, nor [is] Mary’s intercession intrinsically necessary for the application of the grace, but according to God’s positive ordinance, the redemptive grace of Jesus Christ is conferred [with] the intercessory cooperation of Mary.

{Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma}

God often involves Christians in secondary roles in which He is preeminent. He is the Creator, yet he calls us to be procreators as parents. Jesus is the Shepherd (Jn 10:11-16; 1 Pet 5:4), yet he delegates Peter as a shepherd (Jn 21:15-17) and others in lesser capacities (Eph 4:11). Jesus is High Priest, yet Christians are called to share in Jesus’ priesthood (1 Pet 2:5-9; Rev 1:6; 20:6). Jesus is the supreme Judge, but Christians will be judges in heaven (Mt 19:28; Lk 22:30; 1 Cor 6:2-3; Rev 20:4). He is the sovereign King, but we will reign with him (Matt 19:23; Rev 3:21; 5:10). Jesus forgives our sins, but we are vessels of that forgiveness as well (Mt 18:18; Jn 20:23; Jas 5:14-15). Similarly, Mary can be a “mini-mediator” of God’s graces, just as we all are, to a lesser extent, when we pray for each other. The role of “Mediatrix” is not a blasphemous Christ-usurping function, as many Protestants fear, but, like all other Marian doctrines, eminently Christ-centered and biblical.

ic.net
 
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justaccord:
No you misunderstand me. The only thing that should be discredited is false teaching. Taking the faith given to us by the grace of God and turning it into a different religion based on works and tradition falls into that category.

There is no dispute that Mary was blessed, especially, by God, and that a sword pierced her heart when He was killed in an abominable way. But it looks like the rest of it after that was a figment of human imaginations, that can only be sustained by twisting the English language into an unrecognizable shape.

Interestingly, there is no mention of special reverence of Mary anywhere in the New Testament or in the early church.
Indeed,

Luke 8:19 Then his mother and shis brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd. 20 And he was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you.” 21 But he answered them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”
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Again the csriptures evade you. You should stop and think before posting friend. Question: Did Mary “Hear the word of God and obey it?”
 
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RonWI:
So?
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One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.

(Martin Luther, Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)
 
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justaccord:
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DeFide:
Isn’t it amazing, though that with all those individual interpretations and all those denominations, we can all agree that Mariology is a human invention
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Correction, only angry anti-Catholics say that. But you see, I am an optimist. I believe that you are here on this Catholic forum because somewhere deep inside of yourself you know that the one , holy, Catholic and apostolic church, is the Catholic Church. And the spiritual warfare rages on inside of your very being because satan wants to keep you in your ignorance. Hang in there my friend. Your insults and attacks will only get worse because satan rejects all that is Holy. We all forgive you. You know not what you do.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_3_15.gif
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Great posts Mickey. Keep up the good work.

Here is a compilation by Fr William Most of magisterial teachings on Mary’s altogether unique role in the Redemption of mankind:

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya3a.htm

I would like to quote from the above what Pope Benedict XV taught.

Benedict XV, Epistle, Admodum probatur, June 20, 1917. AAS 10. 182.
With her suffering and dying Son she suffered and almost died, so did she surrender her mother’s rights over her Son for the salvation of human beings, and to appease the justice of God, so far as pertained to her, she immolated her Son, so that it can be rightly said, that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race.

Hopefully since part of the reason why Pope Benedict XVI chose the name Benedict was his admiration for Benedict XV, our present Holy Father will work toward solemnly defining this beautiful teaching of our faith as a dogma of divine and catholic faith. I am happy to have learned through another poster’s post that Christopher Cardinal Schonborn, a former student of Benedict XVI, who played a significant role in the development of the Catechism and who is mentioned in the press as a possible candidate to be Prefect of the CDF (a post left vacant by Benedict XVI’s accession to the papacy), endorsed the definition of the dogma.
 
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justaccord:
Since God gave the truth to the Israelites, and their duly appointed spiritual leaders twisted and distorted it by elevating tradition over the Word of God, could the same thing happen again after Christ came?
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No, Christ promised that it wouldn’t.

Matt. 16:18, the Church that Christ builds will not be destroyed or prevailed against by Hell.

Research history, what Church can claim direct links going back to Christ?

If the Catholic Church is now wrong, as you contend, then Hell has indeed beaten it, and Christ broke His promise.

I don’t believe He would.
 
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justaccord:
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DeFide:
Isn’t it amazing, though that with all those individual interpretations and all those denominations, we can all agree that Mariology is a human invention, that our faith is solely by grace and not works, that justification is by faith alone through grace alone in Christ alone, that the Word of God is the ultimate authority, that the 10 commandments include the 2nd, and that a host of other things in catholic doctrine are contrary to the Word of God.
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The problem with this fella(s) I will tell you all HONESTLY…look back over all the replies in this thread, has he answered ONE question with any intelligence or has he said anything of any substance? I dialouged with him a good portion of the day yesterday and not once did I get ONE credible reply from him. All of the issues brought up here have been presented to him over and over and I cannot find any evidence that he is listening or responding to what people are saying. I cannot find any evidence he comprehends our faith. He is the most frustarting type of Prot because he raises accusations,* does not read what you have taken the time to respond with*** and before you can blink an eye he’s onto the next accusation. As an ex-prot, this type of thing is very common within the sola scriptura camp. He is the type of gentleman who spends all his time reading the “Lorraine Bottners” of the world and frequenting anti-catholic websites and has no understanding of his heritage. His leather bound bible appeared out of the thin air he would have us believe. I would say unless these people start COHESIVELY answering questions we are all spinning our wheels. Just my two cents…
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