Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

[Cathoholic]

2/2

(On the concept of Jesus being the ONE mediator - yet He, by grace, allows and requires secondary mediation.
Analogously, or in like manner,
Jesus is the ONE Redeemer - yet He,
by grace, allows and requires secondary Redemption.)

Jesus is the only mediator between God and man.

The Bible says so.

And admittedly some of that mediation is done exclusively by Jesus.

There IS only one mediator between God and man.

1st TIMOTHY 2:5 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

But the issue is, HOW does Jesus “mediate”?

We already affirmed there are aspects of Jesus’ mediation that are exclusive to Him. After all. Jesus is True God AND True man.

But is that ALL? Is that the whole story to Jesus’ mediation? No!

Jesus CONTINUES to mediate in and through men with their cooperation ALSO.

Jesus mediates WITH us (We do NOT mediate on our own).

The Greek word for “one” here is “heis”.

“One” as in “one" mediator” or “heis" mediator”.

“Heis” allows for secondary mediation.

The Greek Word Heis and 1st Timothy 2:5

1st TIMOTHY 2:5 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

The Greek word for “one” as in “one mediator” is transliterated heis (“hay-eese”).

Now the same verse with the Greek word for “one” parenthetically added . . .

1st TIMOTHY 2:5 5 For there is one God, and there is one (heis) mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

The Greek word “monos” could have been used which would be more exclusive .
But “monos” WASN’T used here in 1st Timothy 2:5.

“Heis” WAS used. “Heis” which ALLOWS for secondary mediation.

Jesus working in and through His people does not cease when we are in Heaven.

So in the above post, we saw contextually why persons not only can but should mediate and how the Holy Spirit (through St. Paul) calls this mediation “ good, and . . . acceptable in the sight of God our Savior ”.

And we saw in this post, the Greek word heis, of course matches the context.

Mediation.

 

[Cathoholic]

End Times . . . .

Which Venue In your opinion would it be appropriate to comment on this time and situation in history?

Right now? I don’t share a lot of what I think in this regards (concerning the dynamics of Pope Francis’ papacy) with anyone here. (Maybe some around my kitchen table, but much of what I think, I don’t share even privately with anyone.)

.

In the light of the encroaching culmination of this Age - to the best of some abilities of Discernment based upon Faith and Spirit, people need to know what’s going down; think ye not?

I agree. And if I knew more of what “was going down”, I’m sure I would discern towards saying more of what I know.

That IS part of my discernment.

But in all humility, I don’t want to mislead anyone else regarding the internal machinations that are going on within the Church (by my conjecture).

Some of the problems in the Church I know very well (I cannot say here how, but I personally know about some aspects of the Church’s internal problems).

On those issues, I have been very vocal. Even here.

There are some general Scriptural principles that I can see happening within the Church and society, and those I do share here in bits and pieces.

Good questions though and thanks for asking.

 

[annad347]

doesn’t mean that what they believe is true. It’s just their personal opinion.

Unless what they believe is bringing brought into the church, then others will believe what they believe, which can lead to an entire church believing praying to Mary brings you to Christ.

but I’m not really reading the entire thread so I might be a) going off topic or b) mentioning things already discussed so… again this is just my opinion… and nothing else I say will matter. God’s will will be done.

 

[EndTimes]

Right now? I don’t share a lot of what I think in this regards (concerning the dynamics of Pope Francis’ papacy) with anyone here. (Maybe some around my kitchen table, but much of what I think, I don’t share even privately with anyone.)

I understand.

On a related note - I’ve heard said by some
that an ongoing Prophecied Apostacy - is said by some to be occurring -
and perhaps beginning more high-profile starting around 50 years back
and is leading not just a few - as also Prophecied - away from Faith in GOD / religion
even to the point of an increase in Active Opposition to Christ, Jesus

Were that to be the case, than for the sake of those who might lose Faith or worse,
it could be argued that they need some form of Heads Up…

Note: I’m not speaking of this pope, per se, or not…

I’m speaking of Growing Apostasy…

_

• due to the machinations of False Theologians of

 

[TULIPed]

Think of it this way: I love my Mom. She defends me, she stands by me, she helps me, she comforts me, she prays for me, she protects me. But… does that mean that I only encounter Christ through my Mom?

Of course not! That would be a ludicrous assertion! I love Mom. I love Jesus. The two loves don’t conflict with each other, and the love of one doesn’t get in the way of the other.

Totally get it G. The challenge I think we face - at least in the US - is that “co” means “equal” - especially in terms of authority (Co-Captain, Co-Head, Co-Directors…). Furthermore, in English, adding the suffix “ix” to a noun merely makes it feminine. Thus, “Redemptrix” translates directly to “Female Redeemer”.

So - particularly in America - we translate/define “Co-Redemptrix” to a female redeemer equal in authority to…presumably a male redeemer (although technically, I suppose it could be a female redeemer as well). You can see how, if you knew nothing of Catholicism, such terminology could get confusing - at least in English.

In fact, now that I think about it, I would argue this to be linguistically true - at least in terms of word parts - throughout the English speaking world. Which is why, I think it wise of the Holy Father to deal with the term as he has. It might work in Latin, but…when not in Rome…

 

[Cathoholic]

EndTimes . . . .

On a related note - I’ve heard said by some
that an ongoing Prophecied Apostacy - is said by some to be occurring -
and perhaps beginning more high-profile starting around 50 years back
and is leading not just a few - as also Prophecied - away from Faith in GOD / religion
even to the point of an increase in Active Opposition to Christ, Jesus

Were that to be the case, than for the sake of those who might lose Faith or worse,
it could be argued that they need some form of Heads Up…

Note: I’m not speaking of this pope, per se, or not…

I recall years ago reading the Vatican’s newspaper which used to be pretty good, L’Osservatore Romano.

Pope John Paul II talked about that.

He said the best way to battle back against this, is just by stating the truth. Not necessarily arguing. (I wish I would have saved that quote.)

Naturally I catch myself not following that advice and often arguing.

We have discussed that principle many times since in our household.

 

[EndTimes]

On a related note - I’ve heard said by some
that an ongoing Prophecied Apostacy - is said by some to be occurring -
and perhaps beginning more high-profile starting around 50 years back
and is leading not just a few - as also Prophecied - away from Faith in GOD / religion
even to the point of an increase in Active Opposition to Christ, Jesus

Were that to be the case, than for the sake of those who might lose Faith or worse,
it could be argued that they need some form of Heads Up…

Note: I’m not speaking of this pope, per se, or not…

_______________________________________________________

I recall years ago reading the Vatican’s newspaper which used to be pretty good, L’Osservatore Romano.

He said the best way to battle back against this, is just by stating the truth. Not necessarily arguing. (I wish I would have saved that quote.)

It comes as no surprise how in speaking the Truth - there’s always v.strong resistance against Truth.

1. All Vatican Media - has recently come under One Umbrella…
2. of which the pope has delegated authority to others…

Of course, those who know about the Influence of Media upon the minds of viewers,
sense an understandable concern wrt those two facts (above)

 

[patricius79]

Maybe we could point to 1 Cor 3:9, where Paul says “we are God’s co-workers”.

Also, aren’t “co-pilots” inferior in authority to pilots?

Otherwise maybe there is a better term which could be used for Mary which reflects the Church’s teaching about Mary’s singular union with Christ in the work of our salvation.

 

[pnewton]

It does say she is singular, in being Mother of the Redeemer.

 

[patricius79]

Hi annad347,

Praying to Mary does bring us to Christ. That is her whole role: to increase our trust in Christ and our union with him. This role comes from Christ Himself.

The Second Vatican Council said:

For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ. (Lumen Gentium 60)
Lumen gentium

 

[annad347]

Never mind… I don’t want to know.

 

[Gorgias]

Unless what they believe is bringing brought into the church, then others will believe what they believe, which can lead to an entire church believing praying to Mary brings you to Christ.

Every belief system has its own devotions and superstitions which arise from the grass-roots. The organization, itself, encourages (or discourages!) the devotions and discourages the superstitions.

The Church clearly teaches that Mary is not a goddess, and does not have the power to save on her own.

I agree with you, though: God’s will be done! In the meantime, we do what we can to support the Church’s teachings and discourage the things that the Church does not teach…!

Totally get it G. The challenge I think we face - at least in the US - is that “co” means “equal” - especially in terms of authority (Co-Captain, Co-Head, Co-Directors…).

Except that… it doesn’t. My favorite example is that, in the case of employee ownership of a company, everyone is a “co-owner”. But, that doesn’t mean that everyone directs the company. There are ‘co-owners’ who defer to the folks who really do have the authority and who really do run the company. Same here: we are all engaged in the process of redemption… but it’s Christ who redeems, and we defer to him. All of us.

So - particularly in America - we translate/define “Co-Redemptrix” to a female redeemer equal in authority

Perhaps. I think, however, that it has at least (if not more) to do with a particular misconception (found, as it were, often with Protestants) that Catholics view Mary as a sort of “fourth person of the Trinity.” It’s really that misperception that we’re fighting, here.

In fact, now that I think about it, I would argue this to be linguistically true - at least in terms of word parts - throughout the English speaking world.

I dunno. Etymologically speaking, “co” (or “con” or “com”) just means “with”, not “equal to”.

Never mind… I don’t want to know.

In answer to the question you’re not asking, “no”. It is not, strictly speaking, necessary to go through Mary in order to get to Jesus. One can pray to Jesus, and not Mary, and still be saved.

 

[annad347]

In answer to the question you’re not asking, “no”. It is not, strictly speaking, necessary to go through Mary in order to get to Jesus. One can pray to Jesus, and not Mary, and still be saved.

Thank God the church I attend believes that as well.

 

[EndTimes]

Praying to Mary does bring us to Christ.

That is her whole role: to increase our trust in Christ and our union with him.

This role comes from Christ Himself.

And Christ Teaches us How to Pray - Directly to God the Father, and, In JESUS’ Holy Name.

 

[lpatmur]

You have repeatedly claimed that there is nothing Christological about this teaching and are now claiming that this is not a truth found in scripture. I find fault in both these claims. I will start with the second one as it’s understanding must proceed that of the first. In the second chapter of the Gospel of Luke, Simeon not only prophesies the death and resurrection of Christ but links it to a sword that will pass through the heart of Mary. This shows a scriptural backing to the teaching that the suffering of Mary at the Crucifixion should not have its importance overlooked. I further show the significance of this suffering and to bind it once more to His saving power, Christ from the cross addressed Mary. In doing so he invites her into the action of the cross. It is not a moment that diminishes His redemptive suffering unites His suffering with that of His mother.
Mary as co-redeemer is clearly scriptural as well as Christological. It is nothing more than an acknowledgement that Mary through her unique relationship with Christ our Savior suffered in a way so united to the redemptive suffering of Christ that He allowed her suffering to take part in the redemption of the world.
As far as the problem of it being confusing to people, so is the doctrine of the Trinity. The difficulty of a teaching can not disprove its truth but only mean greater care must be taken in defending it. The care has not been taken and thus has become a stumbling block for people in their faith. These are the circumstances that have in the past lead to proclamation of Dogma.

 

[Gorgias]

Thank God the church I attend believes that as well.

The Catholic Church? Yes. That’s what we believe.

 

[patricius79]

One can pray to Jesus, and not Mary, and still be saved.

Of course, I would agree that those who innocently don’t know about Mary would not have that held against them. Likewise with those who in all sincerity–perhaps due to having been reared according to human traditions-- think we should not pray to Mary.

But the ordinary Magisterium has repeatedly stated that every grace given to us is given through Our Lady. This is the case whether we ask for her help or not.

To the extent that we understand the truth about the cooperation of Mary with Jesus in the work of redemption through the Incarnation and the Cross, yet deliberately ignore our mother in grace, we are working against Christ’s plan of salvation.

Pope Saint Pius X wrote this in the encyclical Ad Diem Illum, which I think explains a lot about the state of affairs in the Church today:

1. These principles laid down, and to return to our design, who will not see that we have with good reason claimed for Mary that - as the constant companion of Jesus from the house at Nazareth to the height of Calvary, as beyond all others initiated to the secrets of his Heart, and as the distributor, by right of her Motherhood, of the treasures of His merits, - she is, for all these reasons, a most sure and efficacious assistance to us for arriving at the knowledge and love of Jesus Christ. Those, alas! furnish us by their conduct with a peremptory proof of it, who seduced by the wiles of the demon or deceived by false doctrines think they can do without the help of the Virgin. Hapless are they who neglect Mary under pretext of the honor to be paid to Jesus Christ! As if the Child could be found elsewhere than with the Mother!
   http://www.vatican.va/content/pius-...x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum.html

 

[annad347]

The Catholic Church? Yes. That’s what we believe.

They also tech grace is given to us through prayers to Mary… by not praying to her we are working against our salvation.

Is that what the Catholic church teaches, is that why it is necessary for her to have the title of co-Redemptrix?

again, remember I have not read the entire thread, honestly right now I’m just reading the ones directed to me, so if no one wants to answer its all good… its just a very long thread.

and @Gorgias, I understand what you are saying, but I don’t think all Catholics believe what you’re saying.

 

[commenter]

Welcome to CAF!

 

[Gorgias]

They also tech grace is given to us through prayers to Mary… by not praying to her we are working against our salvation.

No. That’s not quite the teaching, and therefore, it doesn’t have the implication you’re perceiving.

When the Church talks about Mary as a mediatrix of graces, we do not mean a few things:

• We’re not saying that she has a role that is distinct from Jesus, such that she does something that He does not or can not do
• We’re not saying that it’s necessary to offer prayers to Mary (rather than to Jesus) in order to receive His grace

What we are saying, though, is this:

• Mary’s role – one of obedience, faith, and suffering here on earth, and intercession now in heaven – is one that’s united to Christ. All things flow from Christ, and in the sense that she unites her life to His, she is part of His grant of graces, and so, His graces flow from Him through Mary to us.
• Mary intercedes for us now in heaven. That intercession does not require explicit prayer from us, such that, if we don’t pray for her intercession, she doesn’t pray for us. She intercedes for all of us, on her own initiative, not ours.

So… it’s not the case that we’re “working against our salvation” if we don’t pray to Mary.

@Gorgias, I understand what you are saying, but I don’t think all Catholics believe what you’re saying.

Maybe. Maybe not.

And yet, we wouldn’t say that the moon is actually made of green cheese, just because there were people who believed that, would we? The reality is the reality, even if there are those who believe differently.

That means, of course, that there’s a big job of catechesis to undertake, so that all people understand what the Church really teaches (as opposed to what they think she teaches, or what others have told them she teaches!), but that’s always been the case!