Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

folks who identify as “conservative Catholic” tend to fall into the pro-“co-Redemptrix” camp

folks who follow Heterodox/Modernists would present this notion…

Do you think it’s an inaccurate representation, then?

 

[EndTimes]

Do you think it’s an inaccurate representation, then?

Totally … for decades “conservative” is part of the Modernist’s Lexicon…

And IMO - I tend to think that only a very small percentage of Catholics are even aware of this current ‘thing’ concerning Mary and Jesus wrt Redeemer / Redemptrix

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

Do you think it’s an inaccurate representation, then?

Totally … for decades “conservative” is part of the Modernist’s Lexicon…

Be that as it may, it doesn’t mean that every time a person uses the word “conservative”, it betrays them as a ‘modernist’…

Nevertheless, you’re saying that conservative Catholics tend to not be in favor of the ‘co-redemptrix’ title? Who do you think is, then? Progressives?

 

[EndTimes]

Be that as it may, it doesn’t mean that every time a person uses the word “conservative”, it betrays them as a ‘modernist’…

… At the least it reveals them as having come under the influence of Modernism.

 

[Gorgias]

… At the least it reveals them as having come under the influence of Modernism.

Have a wonderful day, ET. Hope no modernists sneak up on you and scare you today…

 

[EndTimes]

… At the least it reveals them as having come under the influence of Modernism.

 

[EndTimes]

Nevertheless, you’re saying that conservative Catholics tend to not be in favor of the ‘co-redemptrix’ title? Who do you think is, then? Progressives?

It’s a mixed bag, Gorgeous…

It mainly involves those who are still into the cult of Mary…

Along with those who enjoy playing armchair “theologian”

And those who’ve been closely scrutinizing Francis and The Vatican and the Heterodox

===

 

[patricius79]

The Second Vatican Council warmly encouraged the “cult” of Mary. Of course, one has to understand what is meant be this term. “Cult” in this context means devotion to the Blessed Virgin out of love for her Divine Son, Jesus Christ.

Here is Vatican II:

1. Placed by the grace of God, as God’s Mother, next to her Son, and exalted above all angels and men, Mary intervened in the mysteries of Christ and is justly honored by a special cult in the Church. Clearly from earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, under whose protection the faithful took refuge in all their dangers and necessities.(21*) Hence after the Synod of Ephesus the cult of the people of God toward Mary wonderfully increased in veneration and love, in invocation and imitation, according to her own prophetic words: “All generations shall call me blessed, because He that is mighty hath done great things to me”.(301) This cult, as it always existed, although it is altogether singular, differs essentially from the cult of adoration which is offered to the Incarnate Word, as well to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and it is most favorable to it. The various forms of piety toward the Mother of God, which the Church within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine, according to the conditions of time and place, and the nature and ingenuity of the faithful has approved, bring it about that while the Mother is honored, the Son, through whom all things have their being (302) and in whom it has pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell,(303) is rightly known, loved and glorified and that all His commands are observed.
   Lumen gentium

 

[EndTimes]

The Second Vatican Council warmly encouraged the “cult” of Mary. Of course, one has to understand what is meant be this term. “Cult” in this context means devotion to the Blessed Virgin out of love for her Divine Son, Jesus Christ.

For surely… Yes…

And here’s more on the cult of Mary which connects more with this Thread

From Vatican II

1. This most Holy Synod deliberately teaches this Catholic doctrine and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and the practices and exercises of piety, recommended by the magisterium of the Church toward her in the course of centuries be made of great moment, and those decrees, which have been given in the early days regarding the cult of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed.(22*)

But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23)*

Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church’s magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety.

Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

 

[Mark121359]

I was referring to the many ways in which quite a few Catholics today downplay the Virgin Mary out of a fear of alienating Protestants.

Absolutely!!! I recall reading posts on the old forum that gave you the impression that some Catholics would gladly welcome the Church to rescind some teachings on Mary if it meant repatriation of our separated brethren.

And I would respond to that in the same way a certain General Anthony McAuliffe once did.

Nuts!

 

[EndTimes]

I was referring to the many ways in which quite a few Catholics today downplay the Virgin Mary out of a fear of alienating Protestants.

Absolutely!!! I recall reading posts on the old forum that gave you the impression that some Catholics would gladly welcome the Church to rescind some teachings on Mary if it meant repatriation of our separated brethren.

Yet…

Some indeed into Marian Devotions
went so overboard that they blindly accepted any alleged Seer
to the point of making it appear to some Catholics and most all other Christians
and virtually allnon-Christians – that Mary is being Worshipped as is Jesus and God…
… often to the point of Totally Obfucating Jesus - and His Teachings and His Prophecies.

The Church had to say the following so as to keep some in line… who went over board…

But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23 ) *

Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

 

[patricius79]

Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church’s magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety.

Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church

Amen.

Vatican II also did not consider it misleading to explicitly affirm the union of Mary with Jesus in the work of our salvation.

In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace.
Lumen gentium

 

[EndTimes]

Vatican II also did not consider it misleading to explicitly affirm the union of Mary with Jesus in the work of our salvation.

Yes… Mary - Chosen by God - is Blessed amongst ALL women…

There’s evidences that after her Dormition that she was bodily taken to Heaven (The Assumption)

Therefore, Mary is neither to be given short shrift nor over the top forms of worship.

Attributed to Mary is her - Pay Attention to Jesus - her Savior as well…

And w/o forgetting Mary - that I do.

_

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Deepening the gulf between Catholics and their separated brethren to the east & west, and needlessly staving off reconciliation for centuries? Whether that’s the point, it’d likely be the only effect.

 

[patricius79]

It seems to me that there has been, in the Church, too little filial love for Mary, which has done ecumenism much harm, since it is Mary who “brings us the gifts of eternal salvation” from Christ (Lumen Gentium 62).

Vatican II also stated the following:

[This Council] does not, however, have it in mind to give a complete doctrine on Mary, nor does it wish to decide those questions which the work of theologians has not yet fully clarified. Those opinions therefore may be lawfully retained which are propounded in Catholic schools concerning her, who occupies a place in the Church which is the highest after Christ and yet very close to us.(4*)
Lumen gentium

 

[EndTimes]

her who occupies a place in the Church which is the highest after Christ and yet very close to us.

And it is this which those whom also noted in Vat II have gone above and beyond that understanding

and of whom must both realize it and thus accept it.

 

[patricius79]

Do you mean that having the opinion that “Co-redemptrix” is an appropriate title for Mary, is claiming that Mary is not a creature?

 

[EndTimes]

Do you mean that having the opinion that “Co-redemptrix” is an appropriate title for Mary, is claiming that Mary is not a creature?

From my perch - with your inclusion of a potential deduction of what I’d said of “Mary is not a creature”, your response seems to me to be very odd…

So let us review what I’d said in response to your
"her who occupies a place in the Church which is the highest after Christ and yet very close to us. "

ME RESPONDED - “And it is this which those whom also noted in Vat II have gone above and beyond that understanding … and of whom must both realize it and thus accept it.”

Question -

How did you come to suggesting that “Mary is not a creature” can be found within what I’d said?

I suggest that perhaps my too-short comment led to ambiguity - which in turn led to your Question

What I refer to is this in Vat II…

But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23 ) *

Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

In other words, no one should ever forget that Christ is higher than yes even Mary;
of which, yes, at times, some indeed forgot that…

That’s my point.

 

[patricius79]

In other words, no one should ever forget that Christ is higher than yes even Mary;
of which, yes, at times, some indeed forgot that…

Since Mary is the Mother of God, she far surpasses–as Vatican II says–all other creatures.

But I’ve never encountered anyone who believed that Mary is equal to Jesus, who is God.

I also don’t think that calling Mary by the title “Co-redemptrix” suggests that one believes that Mary is God.

 

[EndTimes]

But I’ve never encountered anyone who believed that Mary is equal to Jesus, who is God.

You see… and I go back aways - I have - with respect to our Lord Jesus.

Of Which,
You should consider why Vat II had to admonish some -
who are/were involved in the cult of Mary in a manner which went over the Top?

Does anything come to mind in your experiences which shines light
on why Vat II felt the need to say this? …

It wasn’t just a theological out of the blue teaching…

But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23 ) *

Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.