Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

[TK421]

I think the big issue with the Co-Redemptrix title is that it isn’t necessarily an exclusively Marian title. Mary is the Mother of God - for example - and the only Mother of God: nobody else is the literal mother of Jesus. She is also exclusively the Immaculate Conception and this title is directly related to her oldest title as Mother of God.

But in God’s salvific plan, every Christian disciple is commanded by God to take on a co-redeemer role when they cooperate with God’s will and walk in the footsteps of Jesus, so it’s questionable if a Marian title for this would be helpful or even appropriate. The Church will be the one to ultimately decide of course.

The subject has nothing to do with whether it will make protestants or even some Catholics feel uncomfortable. It is a matter of truth.

 

[annad347]

I agree with @EnglishTeacher, the title is too much, totally unnecessary and would be very easily misunderstood. Some Catholics are already making it seem like Mary was more then who she was.

 

[stpurl]

Which Catholics?
All we ever get for this is anecdotes of somebody’s first grade teacher’s grandma’s car pool friend’s second cousin who supposedly once said that “I don’t ask God for help, I ask Mary”. . .and then proceed to label any Catholic who doesn’t do EXACTLY WHAT THEY DO with regard to Mary as being ‘unnecessary’ and ‘worshiping.’

It’s easy to attack and complain because people do something different from what YOU think is ‘sufficient’. These are the same people who mutter when a friend gives her child two cookies after school when “ONE would have been perfectly sufficient”. Jealousy and a feeling that one SHOULD do more, and then being angry at knowing one doesn’t WANT to, is usually behind this attitude.

 

[annad347]

Which Catholics?

Sry, I don’t know them by name, which is why I said some not all… but if you look up a thread I started Question from Semi-Returning Catholic. You might find the answer to which Catholic’s.

Some Catholic’s pray to Mary, to help them pray to Jesus, or for help Jesus to hear them. Some Catholic’s feel Mary has powers to prevent Jesus or to ask Jesus to do things. Some people place her along side Jesus. Which Catholic’s specifically, no idea… I don’t know them by name… but remember I didn’t say ALL.

Give her a dogma title as redemptrix will confuses some people even more as to who Mary is… it’ll make her sound like the Redeemer., and that title only belongs to Jesus.

again to emphasize… some from me, a person who has personally spoken to Catholic’s, lived with Catholic’s and is actually a Catholic (at least that’s what I’m told). Not from something I heard from somebody’s first grade teacher’s grandma’s car pool friend’s second cousin… now her brother-in-law’s sister, mother’s aunt, second niece on her father’s, grandfather’s, mother side might have mentioned it.

 

[annad347]

All we ever get for this is anecdotes of somebody’s first grade teacher’s grandma’s car pool friend’s second cousin who supposedly once …

FYI… that was funny… we so need a LOL thing.

 

[godisgood77]

Fully agree with Pope Francis… foolishness!

Mary is more like us than she is like God. The only way to understand Mary a co redemtrix correctly is highly nuanced and easily misunderstood because it can not be taken at face value… in other words the juice is not worth the squeeze.

 

[godisgood77]

Seems to me that by avoiding that responsibility Pope Francis is being unhelpful and possibly irresponsible in that he criticizes the misunderstanding but doesn’t raise a finger to clarify what the true understanding ought to be.

He is saying that it should be used at all. Which is clarifying it… making it crystal clear actually

 

[godisgood77]

But the point of Mary is that she agreed to become the mother of the Redeemer despite not having been with a man.

What would you do if you had an angel standing in front of you making a pretty persuasive argument? Essentially saying that you have the opportunity to be the luckiest person ever and become the God bearer? Really doesn’t seem like too hard of a decision

 

[stpurl]

Right. First, you (Mary) had vowed to God to be a perpetual virgin. NOT to have children–you were giving that up, along with a physical relationship in a marriage. So you’d know that in addition to everybody thinking you had broken that vow (since you can’t hide a child), OR that God didn’t think your vow was worthwhile, you’d also have Joseph, a man you respected, likewise thinking ill of you. That he had the power to reject you. That you’d be pregnant, walking the streets, and if you said you were bearing the Son of God you’d be killed as a blasphemer. For all you (Mary) knew, God might protect you from death but surely not (the prophets are a grim example) from suffering, misunderstanding of others, physical persecution, physical violation even. And if you knew the Scriptures (Mary did) you would know the Messiah was the "Suffering Servant’. You’d know psalm 22 and “My God, my God, why have you foresaken Me”? You’d be a situation with no father, no male family, the protector chosen for you probably going to reject you, and you’d somehow have to bear AND raise the Son of God.

Oh yeah no brainer. You’d know you’d face misunderstanding, spite, gossip, persecution, and suffering, and while you trusted that it would all come well at the end, you’d have your mother in tears at how you had broken your vows. You’d have the people in your village whom you had known and loved turning their backs on you. You’d worry about them turning their backs on your Child (as indeed Scripture told us came to pass. It was better to have been a member of any town in Judea but Nazareth in the 20s AD, where 'His own knew Him not" and where He was “without honor”.)

Mary was no glory-monger and no ditzy teen thinking of eternal glory in a path which was to be made smooth as silk for her as “Mother of God”.

 

[stpurl]

You do realize that absolutely none of the things you mention, praying, etc. are against Catholic doctrine or wrong, and that absolutely NONE of them make Mary equal to Jesus?

 

[Fauken]

Oh yeah no brainer. You’d know you’d face misunderstanding, spite, gossip, persecution, and suffering, and while you trusted that it would all come well at the end, you’d have your mother in tears at how you had broken your vows. You’d have the people in your village whom you had known and loved turning their backs on you. You’d worry about them turning their backs on your Child (as indeed Scripture told us came to pass. It was better to have been a member of any town in Judea but Nazareth in the 20s AD, where 'His own knew Him not" and where He was “without honor”.)

Not to mention, particularly with the gruesome imagery of that psalm, watch him die horrifically with his killers mocking his every tortured breath. You would watch and know that your son and your God was dying the cruelest and most unjust death you would be able to fathom.

 

[annad347]

You do realize that absolutely none of the things you mention, praying, etc. are against Catholic doctrine or wrong, and that absolutely NONE of them make Mary equal to Jesus?

I realize there’s a thin boarder line from it being right and wrong… and that a person’s understanding of what is being said by someone like a Pope, can push a person over that boarder line to what they are doing is wrong.

 

[ricmat]

Fully agree with Pope Francis… foolishness!

Mary is more like us than she is like God. The only way to understand Mary a co redemtrix correctly is highly nuanced and easily misunderstood because it can not be taken at face value… in other words the juice is not worth the squeeze.

Of course Mary is not God. But she is the greatest of all creatures. Queen of Heaven and the Angels. etc.

Not to mention she has a 3 way relationship with God:

• Child of the Father.
• Spouse of the Holy Spirit.
• Mother of God the Son.

Perhaps Co-Redemptrix is confusing or misleading or not quite technically correct.

Perhaps another title (along the same lines) would be better. But “the juice is not worth the squeeze” is definitely not it.

 

[stpurl]

So basically you’re speculating. Really.

The problem is that instead of taking the sensible step of educating people to a correct understanding of the term co-redemptrix, you’re asking Catholics to completely wimp out, and accept a narrow, protestant, modern understanding of the term as correct.

Just like most Catholics have wimped out to the point of even agreeing that “prayer is something only offered to GOD”. Not true. The most basic study of etymology and the word prayer proves that. But good luck trying to get people to reject a wrong definition in favor of a right one today.

Good luck in trying to get people to understand that “gay” until about 40 years ago meant ‘happy’ and had absolutely nothing to do with homosexual orientation.

Or that the rainbow was a covenant between Noah and God, and not the sign of LBTQ whatever.

The problem isn’t even so much with wrong definitions. It’s with the whole attitude of many Catholics today where they’re embarrassed to even speak up for the right. They would rather ‘turn the other cheek’ and not ‘rock the boat’.

Well you know, it’s one thing to turn the other cheek while still maintaining the truth. That’s what the early Catholic Christians did; they stood there and quietly explained, “I know you think it’s no big deal to make an offering to the Roman Emperor and call him a god. It’s just a name, right? Cross your fingers when you say it, mental reservation, whatever, don’t throw your life away for this petty thing. . .well to you it’s petty. To me, it would be blasphemy and rejection of the True God. I can’t do it. I won’t do it.”

So Ok you went and had a date with the Lions at the Coliseum. You didn’t just wimp and say, “Oh OK, if all it is, is just a mental reservation thing yeah I’m on board.”

Same here.
You can say, “People get confused because they believe the term co means 'equal or equivalent.” That’s OK. The response is then, "OK, well the thing is, the term doesn’t mean that. As Catholics let’s just get out there and respectfully over and over say, "You understand the term incorrectly. It means an assistant, not an equal. No matter how often they try to argue, “But it will confuse people to talk about this term because Protestants believe it means 'equal, so we shouldn’t use it at all”, we SHOULD be saying, “I’m sorry you have an incorrect understanding of Co-redemptrix. It does not mean equal, it means assisting. People can assist in all kinds of ways. An assistant to a teacher isn’t the equal of the teacher, usually she or he has an associate degree for example. Instead of getting upset, let’s reassess and work on changing the speech that is currently using ‘co’ incorrectly and make it reflect what it truly means.”

 

[godisgood77]

I guess I believe speaking with the Angel Gabriel live and in person would be enough for me to do whatever he says… I like to think I wouldn’t go line by line on all of things that could go wrong. Speaking with an Angel sent by God would be such a profound moment that I don’t think fear would have entered her mind.

 

[annad347]

why are you attacking me, I’m not the only one who agreed with the Pope or said that people would get confused by the title… and how would I be speculating… you said what I posted doesn’t go against Catholic doctrine… that’s not speculating that’s fact.

Look, call Mary whatever you want, that’s your free will given to you by God… but I am entitled to my opinion, like everyone else on this thread.

FYI, Jesus said we should turn the other cheek… so if it helps, slap away.

 

[stpurl]

I am not attacking you in any way.

 

[Cathoholic]

Genesis315 . . .

But the fact that so many people, including now a Pope, immediately get the wrong idea when hearing it . . .

My take on this?

I think this is a good reason TO define it.

But then again, I am not the successor to St. Peter so I submit to the Pope’s will in this matter.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Mac]

If God wills the title to be a dogma it will. But we know that Jesus received His humanity from Mary, and came into the world thru Mary. She definitely played an important role. True Devotion to Mary always leads to Jesus

 

[ASC]

She’s not a co-redemptrix. She was redeemed, as were all the rest of us, by the blood of her son.