Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

[twf]

Yes, the title is simply a matter of piety. It isn’t and won’t be defined as a dogma (according to Pope a Francis).

 

[commenter]

I’m not sure why you replied to me about Papal infallibility, and its rarity, when I never said Pope Francis invoked infallibility. A more relevant issue is whether the ordinary magisterium is involved here (maybe yes, maybe no).You could support or oppose that question.

I am troubled by the number of posts that suggest to limit a Pope’s teaching authority to only that one particular criteria as defined by Vatican 1, for one particular purpose.
There are other purposes, other levels of teaching authority, besides the definition of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption.

This doesn’t necessarily prove Pope Francis is right, on this or other issues, but consider the appropriate context.

 

[Cathoholic]

@Gorgias. You still not have answered the questions.

Here they are again.

Do you think Jesus wants to associate His redemptive sacrifice on Calvary with ANY of humanity?

And if yes, do you affirm this is preeminently true (“supremely”) concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary exactly as CCC 618 states and that it was “achieved”?

And if yes, would this be a grace consistent with the Divine will (“Jesus desires”)?

Gorgias’response?

Here’s the thing: I don’t think that the answers to these questions establish “co-redemptrix”.

But I am not attempting to establish coredemptrix doctrines with you here (yet).

So please just go through the questions and answer them. They are pretty easy and there is only three of them.

 

[whatistrue]

I did the “homework” on your behalf

Why? And why get into faith vs. works? I get that already.

The exact principle used in the doctrine of Mother Mary as Coredemptrix

Still not a doctrine…

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias’response?

Here’s the thing: I don’t think that the answers to these questions establish “co-redemptrix”.

Yeah, but that’s what you’re attempting to do. So, I’m saving you time: they don’t prove your case.

So please just go through the questions and answer them. They are pretty easy and there is only three of them.

• The CCC indicates that this applies to the “first beneficiaries” of His redemptive sacrifice. The footnotes point to the Apostles.
• “pre-eminent” and “supreme” are not the same description.
• that seems to be a personal opinion on your part that the CCC is talking about Christ’s divine will; He has both a divine will and a human will.

 

[Gorgias]

We should dogmatically define what needs to be defined because it’s the right thing to do.

OK. Does this “need to be defined”, then?

Honestly, I feel that we don’t need to define Co Redemptrix. In fact, I can see danger and confusion in dogmatically defining it as the 5th Marian dogma.

Right. Me too.

 

[Cathoholic]

Gorgias . . . .

“pre-eminent” and “supreme” are not the same description.

Have it your way.

Here we go again.

And if yes, do you affirm the fact that Jesus desires to associate His redemption with others is supremely true concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary exactly as CCC 618 states and that it was “achieved”?

.

Here it is yet again @Gorgias . . .

Here it is contextually yet again Gorgias . . .

CCC 618b, d In fact Jesus desires to associate (people) with his redeeming sacrifice . . .
This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering .

Above parenthetical addition mine for context.

Here is the entire paragraph too.

CCC 618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”.452 But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men.453 He calls his disciples to “take up [their] cross and follow [him]”,454 for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps."455 In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. 456
This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering .457

Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.458

 

[Serpent_of_Paradise]

Eve helped Adam to sin and fall. Mary helped Jesus to redeem us. You probably won’t see this defined by this Pope, or any other in the near future. But, it seems reasonable to me as a theological speculation. Many Marian supporters may accept this as doctrine, when it is not officially. The Pope is right that Mary didn’t present herself as co-redemptrix , yet that very aspect of this debate shows she humbly followed Christ to be a silent co-redemptrix!

 

[JohnR77]

Mary helped Jesus to redeem us.

We need to understand it in the sense that it was the grace that Jesus won for her that was working through her to assist him and work with him and follow him at Calvary. Vatican 2 points out that what Mary does neither adds Nor subtracts From the work of Jesus Christ. We understand the angel assisting Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane in the same sense.

John

 

[JohnR77]

Luke 22:42.
saying, “Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me; still, not my will but yours be done.”
And to strengthen him an angel from heaven appeared to him. 44. He was in such agony and he prayed so fervently that his sweat became like drops of blood falling on the ground.

 

[Gorgias]

Have it your way.

Well, one is about ‘rank’ and the other about ‘quality’, no?

Here it is contextually yet again Gorgias . . .

You keep inserting “people” where it doesn’t appear in the text!

Mary helped Jesus to redeem us.

I don’t think that’s the way to put it. That’s exactly the kind of language that gets Protestants hopping mad (and, to tell the truth, it gives Mary too much credit!).

We need to understand it in the sense that it was the grace that Jesus won for her that was working through her to assist him and work with him and follow him at Calvary.

There we go – that’s better!

 

[JohnR77]

And the angel is the example of how God works through those in heaven to help us.

 

[Cathoholic]

I asked three or four times and it is evident Gorgias does not want to answer.

I have re-phrased the questions as Gorgias acted like THAT was the issue, but still no answers.

For the readers here.

Here is CCC 618. . . .

CCC 618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”.452 But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men.453 He calls his disciples to “take up [their] cross and follow [him]”,454 for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps."455 In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. 456
This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering .457

Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.458

.

I have no trouble affirming Jesus wants to associate His REDEEMING SACRIFICE with some of mankind.

I have no trouble affirming Jesus wants to associate His REDEEMING SACRIFICE with the Blessed Virgin Mary.

I have no trouble affirming Jesus achieved supremely His associating His REDEEMING SACRIFICE WITH the Blessed Virgin Mary.

I have no trouble affirming this is in fact what Jesus desires.

 

[Gorgias]

I asked three or four times and it is evident Gorgias does not want to answer.

Huh? I answered!

• The CCC indicates that this applies to the “first beneficiaries” of His redemptive sacrifice. The footnotes point to the Apostles.
• “pre-eminent” and “supreme” are not the same description.
• that seems to be a personal opinion on your part that the CCC is talking about Christ’s divine will; He has both a divine will and a human will.

See?

I have no trouble affirming this is in fact what Jesus desires.

Great. None of these says “co-redemptrix”, though, and that’s my point!

 

[Cathoholic]

Gorgias . . .

Great. None of these says “co-redemptrix”, though, and that’s my point!

I never asked you to say it did. (I know it does but I did not ask this of you.)

I just asked you (many times) to affirm the statements that I took from the CCC.

You won’t (so far).

I’ve tidied up wording so it matches the CCC and you still can’t seem to do it.

Look Gorgias. You don’t need to do it. (At least for me.)

The sentences are there.

I have affirmed everything.

And readers can draw their own conclusions here.

You can continue running around essentially saying Jesus associating His Redeeming with (“cum”, “co”) the Blessed Mother isn’t associating His redeeming with the Blessed Mother.

Like I said. People can read the posts for themselves and draw their own conclusions.

 

[EndTimes]

In a sense, we are all co-redeemers

Since from the time of the Fall Jesus was the One Redeemer earmarked by our Father to Redeem Man back to God - via as God, be an Atonement Sacrifice on the Cross - which then completed Redemption - how do you figure that?

_

 

[Cathoholic]

I brought up these points and asked Gorgias if he affirmed them.

Here were my points again.

• I have no trouble affirming Jesus wants to associate His REDEEMING SACRIFICE with some of mankind.
• I have no trouble affirming Jesus wants to associate His REDEEMING SACRIFICE with the Blessed Virgin Mary.
• I have no trouble affirming Jesus achieved supremely His associating His REDEEMING SACRIFICE WITH the Blessed Virgin Mary.
• I have no trouble affirming this is in fact what Jesus desires.

Gorgias insisted he answered these points (I originally put them in question format. You can see it above if you want.)

Gorgias insisted he answered the questions.

Here is the “insistence” (below and in this link).

.

Gorgias . . .

Huh? I answered!

To the readers here. See for yourself if Gorgias answered anything.

Here is the first aspect of Gorgias’ “answer”.

• The CCC indicates that this applies to the “first beneficiaries” of His redemptive sacrifice. The footnotes point to the Apostles.

Yeah. The CCC indicates that alright.

I didn’t ask if the CCC indicated this.

I asked if you affirm it.

.

Gorgias goes on in his “answer” if he affirms the statements I took right out of CCC 618 . . .

• “pre-eminent” and “supreme” are not the same description.

I re-phrased the question and he still has not affirmed it.

.

Gorgias’ final portion of the “answer” . . .

• that seems to be a personal opinion on your part that the CCC is talking about Christ’s divine will; He has both a divine will and a human will.

More nuthin’.

 

[Bill6]

Greetings in Christ Our God,
My understanding is that the Holy Father meant that Our Lady is not a redeemer apart from Christ the One True Redeemer. Mary is Co-Redemptrix when her suffering is understood as united with the suffering of Jesus. That is what the previous popes meant in calling Our Lady Co-Redemptrix. We can even be redemeers when we unite our sufferings, big and small, with Jesus’ passion. Jesus alone is the One True Redeemer. Any one else who is “redeeming” is only unitng their suffering with His. Jesus’s Sacrafice alone was and is sufficent to pay for all sins, even the sins of those who are unsaved. Even if no one ever offered their sufferings up to Jesus, his sacrafice would still be infinitely sufficent to pay for all sins committed by mankind.

Mary suffered more than anyone except her Son, and she did so with peace, united to her son. That is why she is Co-Redemptrix.

God bless and Mary keep you.

 

[EndTimes]

No one has said otherwise. Only that she participated in her son’s work of redemption in a unique manner. All of us are called to participate in that same work of redemption.

The work of Redemption’s is done … by Jesus the One Redeemer, yes?

)

 

[Cathoholic]

Bill6. . .

. . . Mary is Co-Redemptrix when her suffering is understood as united with the suffering of Jesus . That is what the previous popes meant in calling Our Lady Co-Redemptrix. We can even be redemeers when we unite our sufferings, big and small . . .

That is exactly right.

But the Blessed Virgin Mary has three other even more intimate distinctions (than “we”).

• The Blessed Mother was there personally.
• The Blessed Virgin Mary is Jesus’ mother.
• Our Lord Jesus used Her Immaculate flesh to fashion His OWN flesh. (“I give my flesh for the life of the world” Jesus says in John 6 . . . But WHERE did He take His flesh that He “gives for the life of the world” from in the first place? “He was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made Man”.)
• Add into this, the Blessed Mother’s vision is not hindered by sin and thus She sees life and death (especially the death of Her Son) in a way, that you and I cannot now see. (You and I if we saw this occur to our children would be overcome with grief. For the Blessed Mother, it would be a dry martyrdom almost certainly needing special grace to hold up. It would be much worse for Her, unencumbered by the blindness of sin.)

.

Just as the Old Eve was fashioned miraculously out of the flesh from the Old Adam. In undoing the fall, the New Adam (who is true God and true Man) fashions his own humanity from the flesh of the New Eve. (And I don’t want to get side-tracked on ecclesiology too much here, but the Church, the New Adam’s bride, is fashioned from His side too as evidenced by the blood and water gushing out from the side of the New Adam!)

The Blessed Virgin Mary was so associated WITH (“co”) our Lord Jesus, that this is part of WHY, when a sword (spear) pierces our Lord Jesus (the New Adam’s side), the Blessed Mother, the New Eve is so closely United to Her Son, that a sword pierces Her own soul too.

And THAT is WHY CCC 618 footnotes (among other things) Luke 2:35.

Here is THAT verse again.

LUKE 2:34-35 34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against 35 (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also ), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.”

.

JOHN 19:32-34 32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him; 33 but when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.