Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

[patricius79]

One of the goals of Vatican II was to describe our responsibilities toward Mary:

1. Wherefore this Holy Synod, in expounding the doctrine on the Church, in which the divine Redeemer works salvation, intends to describe with diligence both the role of the Blessed Virgin in the mystery of the Incarnate Word and the Mystical Body, and the duties of redeemed mankind toward the Mother of God, who is mother of Christ and mother of men, particularly of the faithful.
   Lumen gentium

 

[Gorgias]

One of the goals of Vatican II was to describe our responsibilities toward Mary:

OK, then: how would you describe these ‘responsibilities’, especially in the context of Lumen gentium? As best I can see, these are duties of liturgical worship (e.g., observing the Marian feasts of the Church calendar). This, then, implies that these duties apply to Catholics and not all Christians (that is, non-Catholic Christians).

Even more interesting, given the tenor of the conversation in this thread, is this quote from Lumen gentium:

Let [preachers and theologians] assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church.

Isn’t this precisely the type of warning that’s been sounded in this thread (and subsequently pooh-poohed by others as well-intentioned but misled)?

 

[patricius79]

In response to the love of the Blessed Mother toward us, we owe her true devotion and filial love, such that we imitate her virtues.

Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues

Vatican II stated theologians and preachers should:

Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church

Some think this is referring only to exaggerations. But Vatican II says to avoid both gross exaggerations and petty narrowmindedness. If we are minimizing what the Popes and Vatican II have actually taught, we are leading people into error regarding the Church’s true doctrine.

 

[EndTimes]

and @Gorgias, I understand what you are saying, but I don’t think all Catholics believe what you’re saying.

Interesting point…

Related, due to what some maintain is a averaged lack of solid catechesis of Catholic Teachings amongst Catholics themselves - that translates to a recognized lack of overall knowledge and agreement on some Catholic Teachings by some/much of the Flock.

 

[Pai_Nosso]

So there are proposals and petitions to have this title declared dogma.
Sounds like lobby groups. Why is there such a demand for this anyway?

 

[EndTimes]

What Catholics are trying to do is to exalt Mary above other humans .

Not above Jesus , or even equal to Jesus . It’s just that, of all humans, Mary has a special place. It’s not divine. It’s human. But it’s special.

Way way way too broad. … and therefore false.

_

 

[patricius79]

It is important for Catholics to seek the truth about the Mother of God, in order to understand the greatness of Jesus Christ’s gift to us, when He gave His Mother to each human person from the Cross.

Here is Blessed Pope Pius IX in his Apostolic Constitution in which he defined the dogma of the Immaculate Conception:

From the very beginning, and before time began, the eternal Father chose and prepared for his only-begotten Son a Mother in whom the Son of God would become incarnate and from whom, in the blessed fullness of time, he would be born into this world. Above all creatures did God so loved her that truly in her was the Father well pleased with singular delight. Therefore, far above all the angels and all the saints so wondrously did God endow her with the abundance of all heavenly gifts poured from the treasury of his divinity that this mother, ever absolutely free of all stain of sin, all fair and perfect, would possess that fullness of holy innocence and sanctity than which, under God, one cannot even imagine anything greater, and which, outside of God, no mind can succeed in comprehending fully.
Ineffabilis Deus - Papal Encyclicals

 

[EndTimes]

It is important for Catholics to seek the truth about the Mother of God, in order to understand the greatness of Jesus Christ’s gift to us, when He gave His Mother to us from the Cross.

The only way that that could ever come to be for most Catholics of Today,
Is for them to be Taught that - from Pulpits around the world…

 

[Pai_Nosso]

It is important for Catholics to seek the truth about the Mother of God, in order to understand the greatness of Jesus Christ’s gift to us, when He gave His Mother to us from the Cross.

If she’s so important then why wasn’t it literally explained in the NT?
What don’t you understand about the gift of Christ that you think will be reveled?
What has any Marian dogma revealed about Christ?

We’re required to believe these dogmas that are based on speculation. But above all they have absolutely nothing to do with my salvation through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. Nothing at all

It looks like a post-modern egalitarian movement pushing for equality. There are even lobby groups using the same tactics with proposals and petitions.

 

[goout]

patricius79:

Praying to Mary does bring us to Christ.

That is her whole role: to increase our trust in Christ and our union with him.

This role comes from Christ Himself.

And Christ Teaches us How to Pray - Directly to God the Father, and, In JESUS’ Holy Name.

While we can pray to God in any number of expressions and with a variety of charisms, we don’t do so as isolated individuals. We pray as members of a community of believers.
Who is part of that community?
Christ, of course, as the head of the Mystical Body and as the one who reconciles us to the Father.
Mary, his uniquely graced mother who co-operates in His redemption.
My wife, who as my spouse in Christian marriage is uniquely positioned to co-operate in my redemption.
All our parents, our pastors, all our fellow human beings who co-operate in our redemption.

Especially in American thought, Christianity can be way too individualistic. Individualism is the antithesis of Christianity. Individualism reduces Christianity to selfish transaction. It robs Christianity of the richness of love between the members of the body.

I can practice faith as me and God alone without reference to others. But why would I want to engage in reductionism, when Christ offers us so much more.

 

[EndTimes]

While we can pray to God in any number of expressions and with a variety of charisms, we don’t do so as isolated individuals. We pray as members of a community of believers.

Hmmmmm…

We do Both…

As members of a Community - say at Mass… …

As well as being “alone in our room” - as per Jesus’ Teachings re: Praying to God our Father…

============================================

When you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen.

Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans,
for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

“This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one."

**For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. **

But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

 

[goout]

goout:

While we can pray to God in any number of expressions and with a variety of charisms, we don’t do so as isolated individuals. We pray as members of a community of believers.

Hmmmmm…

We do Both…

Yes. Both/and is a key concept to grasp for the Catholic and apostolic faith.

 

[commenter]

What has any Marian dogma revealed about Christ?

The dogma of “mother of God” affirms Christ’s divinity. “Immaculate Conception” and “Assumption” reaffirm both the humanity - physical birth - of Christ, as well as his uniqueness.

In recent years two ancient heresies have been subtly revived. One teaches - implies - that it doesn’t matter if there was a specific man born at a certain place and time. The important thing is that there was an outbreak of spirituality around 2000 years ago in a community. The Church (supposedly) later put words on Jesus’ lips for its own purposes, but Jesus is really born whenever people are spiritual, that same spark of divinity the Jesus-community had.

The other heresy implies of course Jesus was born, but no different from other men, don’t get distracted by spirituality, but carry on his work of making all persons equal.

I think Pope Pius XII foresaw both those heresies coming, that’s why the definition of his Marian dogma taught timely lessons of both Christ’s humanity, and uniqueness.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Good post, commenter.
EVERY Marian dogma reveals stuff about Christ, and there is a wealth of theological commentary on them explaining various insights, if someone takes the time to find and read it.

Mary and the teachings about her never, never exist in a vacuum without Christ. Her whole point is to lead us to Christ and every teaching about her is oriented towards that goal.

 

[Pai_Nosso]

The dogma of “mother of God” affirms Christ’s divinity.

Christ’s divinity was always known and never in question.

“Immaculate Conception” and “Assumption” reaffirm both the humanity - physical birth - of Christ, as well as his uniqueness.

Again, no revelation, just confirmation of already established facts.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

“Christ’s divinity was never in question”? Actually there was a pretty huge debate about it in the early centuries of the Church. Same for his humanity.

You need to view these things in light of the entire history of the Church and not just from a 20th - 21st century perspective.

 

[commenter]

commenter:

The dogma of “mother of God” affirms Christ’s divinity.

Christ’s divinity was always known and never in question.

“Immaculate Conception” and “Assumption” reaffirm both the humanity - physical birth - of Christ, as well as his uniqueness.

Again, no revelation, just confirmation of already established facts.

“Already established facts” are constantly getting disestablished, or muddied.

The Church doesn’t need new revelation. Rather the Church is constantly defending/explaining/clarifying/applying the old revelation to new generations, who are buffeted by discovery of new continents, scientific breakthroughs, new philosophies, crumbling of empires, etc.

Protestants usually defend against one type of heresy, which varies from one denomination and decade to another. The Catholic Church takes on all comers, defending the Truth in every battle front, against enemies who often hate and refute each other.

The best explanation of the defense of doctrine is the book “Orthodoxy” by G. K. Chesterton.

 

[patricius79]

As far as the problem of it being confusing to people, so is the doctrine of the Trinity. The difficulty of a teaching can not disprove its truth but only mean greater care must be taken in defending it. The care has not been taken and thus has become a stumbling block for people in their faith. These are the circumstances that have in the past lead to proclamation of Dogma.

That’s interesting. At some point this controversy and unclarity among Catholics–as we see evident on this thread–will need to be settled.

Vatican II seems to indicate this

54.[This Holy Synod] does not, however, have it in mind to give a complete doctrine on Mary, nor does it wish to decide those questions which the work of theologians has not yet fully clarified. Those opinions therefore may be lawfully retained which are propounded in Catholic schools concerning her, who occupies a place in the Church which is the highest after Christ and yet very close to us.(4*)
Lumen gentium

 

[Pai_Nosso]

The Church doesn’t need new revelation

Many people think it does need this dogma. It’s not so much of a revelation from God, more like a political debate of subjective opinions really. Post-modernism versus traditionalism. It’s politics

At the moment anyone can choose to have the Virgin as their mediatrix, co-redemptrix or advocate. Some people do, some people don’t.

Declaring it dogma, demanding it’s belief, has the potential to put a split in the religion, and for what exactly?

One must take note of the countless Marian apparitions that occur. Hardly any gets Vatican approved, some are passed off as fantasy, imagination, fraudulent, false.

However some are from a supernatural source. The person enters a state of consciousness known as ecstasy. Scientists know that it isn’t dream or sleep, it isn’t hallucinations, it isn’t anything known to science.

Of these supernatural apparitions many are diabolical. The evil one is using the image of a beautiful young woman to deceive.

Seeing we have this problem of Satan appearing as the Virgin and the catastrophic potential for a schism why would you take such a risk? Why do u want to enforce your devotion onto everyone else who are indifferent about it? Some peoples motives will be good but some people pushing for this will have diabolical motives.

 

[patricius79]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) patricius79:

It is important for Catholics to seek the truth about the Mother of God, in order to understand the greatness of Jesus Christ’s gift to us, when He gave His Mother to us from the Cross.

Yes–and for Catholics to seek the truth personally through prayer and reading, such as on Sundays.

I don’t understand why there isn’t more preaching about Mary, especially since the truths about her are so consoling.

For example, here is part of a very comforting passage from an encyclical by Pope Leo XIII:

Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother. How great are the goodness and mercy revealed in this design of God! What a correspondence with the frailty of man!… Thus do those whose actions have disturbed their consciences need an intercessor mighty in favour with God, merciful enough not to reject the cause of the desperate, merciful enough to lift up again towards hope in the divine mercy the afflicted and the broken down. Mary is this glorious intermediary; she is the mighty Mother of the Almighty; but-what is still sweeter - she is gentle, extreme in tenderness, of a limitless loving-kindness. As such God gave her to us. Having chosen her for the Mother of His only begotten Son, He taught her all a mother’s feeling that breathes nothing but pardon and love.
http://www.vatican.va/content/leo-x...nts/hf_l-xiii_enc_22091891_octobri-mense.html