Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

[Pai_Nosso]

Ignoring these hazards while demanding dogma is foolish as our Holy Father called it. Tonturas.
Who has the authority to change his decision on this matter? No one.
Anyone criticizing the Pope here is in error. The Pope is being guided by the Holy Spirit to make that decision. You are not.

 

[patricius79]

It’s important to keep a balanced perspective on this.

As I understand it, religious assent is owed to the Popes, both present and past (and future).

Wee owe it to the Holy Father, Pope Francis, to sincerely adhere to his judgements. We also owe it to previous Popes–such as John Paul II–who affirmed that Mary is Co-Redemptrix, to sincerely adhere to their judgments.

As quoted, Pope Leo XIII affirmed that Mary is “Co-Redemptrix” in a very weighty magisterial document (an encyclical).

I’ve read that Pope Pius XI also referred to Mary as “Co-Redemptrix”.

Pope Benedict XV wrote that “Mary, together with Christ redeemed the human race”. (Of course this needs to be understood correctly, in a cooperative sense in which Mary adds nothing to Christ’s efficacy as the One Mediator, nor subtracts).

Pope Pius X, commenting on Mary’s redemptive suffering with Christ, referred to Mary as “the Reparatrix of the lost world” (Ad Diem Illum)

If Pope Francis were to change his mind and declare a dogma regarding Mary’s singular cooperation with Christ in the redemption or each of us; or if a future Pope were to do so, then obviously this would be infallible; which would mean that it had always has been entirely true and would be explicitly binding on all Catholics as a matter of faith.

 

[TULIPed]

Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother.

Could you please point me to Sacred Scripture that supports this concept? Thanks in advance.

 

[EndTimes]

Yes–and for Catholics to seek the truth personally through prayer and reading, such as on Sundays.

I don’t understand why there isn’t more preaching about Mary, especially since the truths about her are so consoling.

Catholics need to dive into Scriptures beyond just Sunday readings.

Maybe the current Admin? is not in agreement?

 

[patricius79]

Catholics believe that we are to hold fast to what was handed on either orally or in writing, as St. Paul says in 2 Thess 2:15. In the Annunciation narrative in Luke’s Gospel, Mary is greeted as Full of Grace, and it is stated that she has found favor with God. She is so full of grace and found so much favor with God, that this grace is what is passed on to every believer. Mary found so much grace that we have Jesus Christ through her.

As St. Louis De Monfort says, Jesus Christ came to give infinite glory to God and to save each of us. His chosen way was to become incarnate in Mary and to submit himself to her. We know of know other plan of salvation except our salvation through the cooperation of Mary.

God the Son chose to be conceived in Mary when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her. Mary is thus the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, as Pope John Paul II says in “Mother of the Redeemer”. That is why the Scriptures say that “Mary was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit”. This of course must be understood spiritually.

After Mary conceives Jesus Christ, who is our salvation, she immediately shares this grace. She goes to visit her cousin Elizabeth. As soon as Mary’s greeting reaches Elizabeth’s ears, Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit and her son is sanctified in her womb and he leaps for joy. Elizabeth then practices Marian veneration, beginning by saying that Mary is blessed among women, and then saying that blessed is the fruit of her womb. This shows that the way to Jesus is through Mary, His Mother.

Much later on, Jesus says from the Cross “Behold your mother!”, meaning that every grace given to us is given to us through the maternal mediation of Mary, who was united with so much suffering and compassion with Jesus as he died on the Cross.

 

[patricius79]

Catholics need to dive into Scriptures beyond just Sunday readings.

Yes they do. I wasn’t just referring to Mass. I was referring to Sunday as a time when people might find time to study what the Magisterium, doctors, and saints teach us about the Mother of God and of each of us.

 

[TULIPed]

Catholics believe that we are to hold fast to what was handed on either orally or in writing, as St. Paul says in 2 Thess 2:15.

Fair enough. So this:

Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother.

Isn’t in Sacred Scripture, rather it’s Sacred Tradition?

This shows that the way to Jesus is through Mary, His Mother.

So the only way I can have faith in Christ is if I first have faith in His Mother? Or do I just have to ask His mother for faith in Christ first?

meaning that every grace given to us is given to us through the maternal mediation of Mary,

Every grace? I presume that includes salvation, no? So the only way I have salvation is through the mediation of Mary?

Again - thanks for your help on this. I want to make sure I understand where you’re coming from.

 

[EndTimes]

Yes they do. I wasn’t just referring to Mass. I was referring to Sunday as a time when people might find time to study what the Magisterium, doctors, and saints teach us about the Mother of God and of each of us.

T’is most likely a better time for study - is after Mass.

Most especially and primarily about Jesus - Lord of All

Ignorance of Scriptures - is Ignorance of Christ.

 

[JimG]

Co-Redemptrix—another view:

http://frregisscanlon.com/index.php/2019/12/30/co-redemtrix-idea-foolishness-here-is-another-view/

 

[Pai_Nosso]

The Holy Spirit guides the church in doctrinal matters. So let’s take a closer look at what God has decided to do with the push to make this a dogma.

“She never wanted for herself something that was of her son,” Francis said. “She never introduced herself as co-redemptrix. No. Disciple,” he said, meaning that Mary saw herself as a disciple of Jesus.
Mary, the pope insisted, “never stole for herself anything that was of her son,” instead “serving him. Because she is mother. She gives life.”
“When they come to us with the story of declaring her this or making that dogma, let’s not get lost in foolishness [in Spanish, tonteras ],” he said."

The Holy Spirit is clear and firm in the decision providing reasoning and labelling the thought as foolishness. Strong criticism by God, we ought to not bring the word of the Holy Spirit into question as it was delivered through o Santo Padre.

“Christian piety, throughout the ages, always sought to praise her with new titles,” Francis said. “They were filial titles,” that expressed “the love of the people of God, but they did not touch in any way her being a woman disciple.”

So true. Regardless of any doubts of the 4 Marian dogmas none of them contradicts scripture. These 3 titles are in direct contradiction to the words that came from Jesus himself.

“Mary woman, Mary mother, without any other essential title,” Francis insisted.

A firm denial from the Holy Spirit and an assertion that Mary is established and has no further titles are required.

“Mary introduces herself as a woman,” he said. “And she introduces herself with the message of someone else."

So the message she’s introducing herself as is of someone else. Deception. We must stay vigil of the evil one, identify him and never turn your back on him? Christianity has 47,000 denominations. Divide and conquer. There is a fear that Marian radicals would one day reject the church authority and leave.

My first prayer this year was to all Christians, to help us identify the evil one and his subtle methods to infiltrate, to divide and conquer us

We must pray to God to give him thanks for protecting the Church by imposing his will through the word of our Blessed Holy Father.

Anyone rejecting or questioning the word is in direct opposition to the will of God.

 

[Autumn-Smoke]

For example, here is part of a very comforting passage from an encyclical by Pope Leo XIII:

Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother.

I wonder what Pope Leo XIII meant when he said the bolded portion of your post, as it has no basis in scripture.

Jesus said, He who comes to me I will not cast out. He didn’t say, He who would come to me must first go through my mother.

Scripture also says, he who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Not, he who calls upon the name of the Lord through Mary will be saved.

The Book of Hebrews is about Jesus becoming our High Priest through whom we have direct access to God. We do not need to go through some other hierarchy such as first to Mary, who will then lead us to Jesus our High Priest, who then leads us to God.

If Mary was our way to Jesus, surely this would have been a scriptural teaching, but even Peter, in speaking to women, says that women are daughters of Sarah (Abraham’s wife) if they do what is good. (I Peter 3:6). So if Mary was high and exalted at that time and our only way to reach Jesus and obtain salvation, Peter, our First Pope seemed not to have known about it.

Surely a doctrine as important as the salvation of our souls would be correct as stated in our guidebook the Holy Bible. And God has not changed this. Even Mary herself, in all the approved apparitions, basically had the same message: “Turn to My Son and pray, pray, pray.” I wonder what Mary would say to this teaching that no one could reach her son except they went through her?

 

[commenter]

patricius79:

For example, here is part of a very comforting passage from an encyclical by Pope Leo XIII:

Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother.

Jesus said, He who comes to me I will not cast out. He didn’t say, He who would come to me must first go through my mother.

Scripture also says, he who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

The Book of Hebrews …We do not need to go through some other hierarchy such as first to Mary…

If Mary was our way to Jesus, surely this would have been a scriptural teaching …So if Mary was high and exalted at that time and our only way to reach Jesus and obtain salvation…

Surely a doctrine as important as the salvation of our souls would be correct as stated in our guidebook the Holy Bible.

First, the Bible doesn’t necessarily include all that Jesus taught. Second, we have no record Jesus taught that Sola Scriptura is the (only) road to Him. You make several references to the New Testament, but no evidence that Jesus regarded this New Testament as a required intermediary or hierarchy, or that this NT “guidebook” (your word, definitely not His) should exist at all.

Having said this, I do regard the NT as important, but reject Sola Scriptura as a burdensome intermediary.

 

[Gorgias]

Way way way too broad. … and therefore false.

Show me how what I said was false. Do Catholics exalt Mary above other humans? Do Catholics exalt Mary above Christ? Do Catholics call Mary ‘divine’ or ‘human’?

Specific enough. And true.

 

[patricius79]

I wonder what Pope Leo XIII meant when he said the bolded portion of your post, as it has no basis in scripture.

That every grace is given to us by Christ through Mary–(whether one knows this or not or invokes her or not)–is established Catholic teaching, since it has been taught by the Papacy. So it requires sincere adherence (religious assent of mind and will)

Vatican II wrote about this responsibility of Catholics in Lumen Gentium:

Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.
Lumen gentium

 

[TULIPed]

Having said this, I do regard the NT as important, but reject Sola Scriptura as a burdensome intermediary.

Fair enough. However, I’d challenge you to find Pope Leo’s quote - or anything approaching it - in the Catholic Catechism.

 

[TULIPed]

That every grace is given to us by Christ through Mary

Including salvation? Does this mean that we can’t have salvation without asking Mary first? Said another way, do I have to ask Mary to ask Jesus to ask God to save me?

As I think about it - if Mary is intermediating between me and Christ, does she have - for lack of a better way to say this - a vote? For example, could Mary determine that my request is invalid and not pass along my request for Christ’s mercy?

If so, could you please point me to where this is outlined in the Catholic Catechism? If my salvation is dependent upon someone other than (or in addition to) Christ, and it’s mentioned in the Catechism, this is important information me thinks. Thanks.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Including salvation? Does this mean that we can’t have salvation without asking Mary first? Said another way, do I have to ask Mary to ask Jesus to ask God to save me?

Salvation is not a grace.

Graces are qualities that help us grow closer to God and increase the chances of our ultimate salvation. Things like faith, hope, charity, final perseverance, desire for holiness, etc.

Mary would never do something like “not pass along a request for Christ’s mercy”. The only time she wouldn’t relay a request is when the request is not in accordance with God’s will, and she would know that because she always does God’s will. For example, let’s say someone asked Mary to please help accomplish something sinful. Mary’s not going to mediate that request.

Mary is our mediator with Jesus like Jesus is our mediator with the Father. Mary is also the Mediatrix of All Graces. This is established Church teaching. It is not the same thing as “co-redemptrix”.

Mary the "Mediatrix of All Graces" | Catholic Answers Q&A

 

[TULIPed]

Ah. Fair enough.

So, the concept of a “free gift”, as presented below, is different from the “graces” like hope and charity:

“ 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

Or all all of them free gifts? If so, then I would argue salvation could be included?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Grace and graces are a pretty complicated topic in Catholic theology. Fr. John Hardon is one of the foremost theologians to have written on them. Here for example is what you get when you search his archives for the topic of “Grace”.

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Grace.htm

When we talk about receiving graces through Mary, we are usually talking about theological virtues (like faith, hope and charity), moral virtues (like knowledge, wisdom, fortitude etc ) and other qualities and gifts that help us to be holy. Again this gets to be a pretty complex topic theologically, as shown by Fr. Hardon’s writing just on that subject.

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Grace/Grace_017.htm

In addition, one can interpret “grace through Mary” very broadly as including any quality one needs to lead a better and more moral life. For example, I could ask Mary for the grace to cope with a difficult individual, the grace to improve my prayer life, the grace to get up off this couch and do something with my day, etc.

All these graces come from God in the first place. He put Mary in charge of distributing them. Think of it as God owns a bakery and makes grace cookies all day, and he gives them to Mary in a big basket to hand them out to the children who ask for them.

Salvation is a different thing. It’s not a grace, it’s the ultimate goal. When a runner wants to win a race, he tries to increase the qualities that would give him the best chance to win. He wants the “graces” of speed, stamina, good health, concentration, strategic thinking, technique, etc. so he can achieve the ultimate goal of winning the race. Salvation for us is “winning the race” (St. Paul even describes it as such). Graces are the qualities that get us there.

The whole business of salvation being a “free gift” is a little misleading here because it puts salvation in same category with grace and suggests it is something Mary or God would hand out like a cookie. It’s not quite the same thing, at least not to Catholics.

 

[TULIPed]

In addition, one can interpret “grace through Mary” very broadly as including any quality one needs to lead a better and more moral life. For example, I could ask Mary for the grace to cope with a difficult individual, the grace to improve my prayer life, the grace to get up off this couch and do something with my day, etc.

This makes a ton of sense to me. No different (excepting that Mary is uniquely qualified as Christ’s mom of course) from me asking a friend to pray for me. (I think you can see though how a Protestant could get wrapped around the axle when pondering the quote from Pope Leo, no? Of course, there’s a ton of quotes from Protestants that Catholics could (rightly) get upset about as well.)

Happy New Year ‘Tis! Good to hear from you.