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LutheranDK
Guest
Non-sequitur.
- Status
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guanophore
Guest
Indeed, she was given the revelation of God. This resulted from the state of her soul being “full of grace”. She had given her “yes” to God all her life, and thus was hailed by the angel Gabriel as "Full of Grace’, a title, not a personal name. This is the state of a person who is filled with grace, always saying “yes” to God. The attitude of humble obedience she demonstrated was nothing new, but demonstrates the quality of her relationship with God.
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LutheranDK
Guest
I’m sorry, but you’re reading something into the text which is not there in the first place.
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guanophore
Guest
How does that make her “not human like us”? Do you believe that God originally created humans with sin? do you think the fact that we are under the effects of original sin are not “human”?
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Irish_Catholic_1
Guest
I suggest that everybody - especially the non-Catholics - read this book by Scott Hahn. It is fantastic, in the usual Hahn tradition, and very enlightening:
http://ebooks-imgs.connect.com/eboo.../000/000/034/056/400000000000000034056_s4.jpg
http://ebooks-imgs.connect.com/eboo.../000/000/034/056/400000000000000034056_s4.jpg
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guanophore
Guest
Leeann really does have an attitude on this point, but try to consider the source. She has loved one’s who are apparently (by her account) idolaters and worshippers of Mary, so she has gotten a very skewed perception of what a healthy relationship with the Theotokos might be.
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Leeann
Guest
Yes…this is the Catholic church’s “Mary” and her role with the Catholic church.
As Irish Catholic has already clearly pointed out by quoting from the catechism of the Catholic church and to which I thanked him/her for doing and have already responded too – it shows that it is not that they don’t believe Mary doesn’t need a Savior, but that they teach that Mary’s redemption came at the time of her conception….by the merits of Jesus…(not verbatim- just short to save time)….so in affect she was pre-redeemed before the time Jesus was born , was crucified and rose from the dead. I have always believed that Mary, just like everyone else needed the redemption that was offered through Jesus’ blood sacrifice. And that is the difference in the “Mary’s”.
As for the why the laity, religious and priests of the Catholic church all praying what you posted….well it is part of the Catholic church’s beliefs with regards to their “Mary”….so it would be strange if they didn’t.
More Catholic church teaching – you believe it – and as you already know by now….I don’t.
More Catholic church teaching – stated as fact with regards to the Mary part– not the same Mary of the gospels , but the “Mary” that the Catholic church has developed over the centuries affording her “salutary influence on men”….and as always, some truth mixed in – from 511.
Divinity? …. why are you asking me this….where have I stated that her supposed sinlessness (is there such a word) equates to divinity?
Again…where have I stated that Mary didn’t have free will?
You referenced “Thou shalt” in Luke’s Gospel. How does this override Mary’s free will?
Ang again…I’ve never said that the “Thou shalts” in Luke’s Gospel overrode Mary’s free will.
In my very first original post I stated clearly, in response to the Op – by posting scripture - what the angel “told her” – in other words the angel didn’t make a request of her or ask her – he told her what was going to happen and she acknowledged it.
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Leeann
Guest
I certainly don’t know what every Catholic believes…and would never attempt to tell you what you believe, however - what the Catholic church teaches is there for all to see in its catechsim. What *individual *Catholic’s believe may coincide with their teachings……or not….depending upon their own level of understanding as to what their church teaches.
Instead of reading into my postings what you yourself want to see and then railing at me about things that you attribute to me, but that I have never stated, perhaps you should concentrate a bit more and stop trying to correct things that simply aren’t present……forgive me if that sounded harsh, but I don’t like people putting words into my mouth anymore than you do or would if that occurred.
Peace
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Leeann
Guest
Yes….God’s grace is unmerited and Mary was certainly blessed with God’s grace……I have never suggested she wasn’t and have never suggested that Jesus didn’t also die for His mother? Your above statement has nothing to do with the post of mine you used above.
Please show where I posted this?
I believe you’ve misread what was actually posted, because I have always believed that Jesus was born of a virgin, being Mary and I would never state that.
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Dancelittleewok
Guest
Forgive me, Leann, but it *seems *you dismiss our views because they are Catholic hence my posts. It wasn’t my intention to distort or put words in your mouth; this is how it seems from my view. If I am wrong, then I apologize. What I said above I was trying to give you an understanding of how Catholics view Mary–mainly that she’s the same woman in the Bible but how you and I view her role is different. I am trying to seek understanding and I apologize if we got off on the wrong foot. 
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guanophore
Guest
Nope, not a chance. She has been given this info for the last year and a half or so, and if anything, it has gotten worse. I think prayer is the only thing that will work now, short of a personal visitation from the Theotokos.
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Leeann
Guest
I’m slowly slogging through here at responding…trying to go back and catch up on the posts “in order” as they were posted…thanks for the book reference Irish Catholic…and hi guanophore…will carry on.
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guanophore
Guest
Whatever other criticism one may have of you, Leeann, you are certainly determined and undaunted!
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Leeann
Guest
Took a quick look in that thread…and want to go back in and read through more,thanks for this link, it will be beneficial.
In what way could I possibly be missing out, when I have Jesus as my Lord and Savior…and because of this - communion with the Father and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit….the complete set….all together, showering me with blessings daily, strengthening me when I am weak in mind and spirit enabling me to continue on, guiding me, nurturing me, chastising me when necessary….what would it be that I am missing out on?
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eucharisteo
Guest
Please read thoroughly before responding… take time to contemplate too. It’s not as you may seem to believe. There’s an old saying “I know that you beleive you think you understand what you think I said but I’m not sure that you understood what you think I said that you heard”…something like that. It’s called mass confusion.
It is really dangerous to talk about things you do not understand in light that they could make the difference of being saved, causing scandal, misleading souls, etc… You [we] bring condemnation on your [our] own head when you [we] misrepresent ancient Church teachings passed down apostolically. You [we] need to fully understand it before speaking out against it. Now the condemnation you [we] bring upon your[our]self does not mean you [we] will burn in hell but rather that if you [we] intentionally misrepresent the Church’s teachings on these subjects then you [we] run the risk of losing salvation for lying about something very sacred and important to understanding the fullness of truth in Jesus Christ. Another topic for another thread. I hope this point is understood better than the way I wrote it.
I explain things about Church teachings by telling about my own story because of my first hand knowledge of struggling with this very subject that was a deal breaker for me in the beginning. But once I understood what was being said I became more calm by learning more about what was actually being taught. So here it goes…don’t take words that come across from me as harsh. My words are meant to convey a message…a purely Catholic message with terminology not accustomed to non-Catholic Christians combined with my own unique attempt at explaining things. So please bear with me.
By Leeann
Thank you FightingFat, but you don’t have to try to help me better understand what you believe…that has already been posted quite clearly by Raffo in post #25 - the vatican website with the Catechism of the Catholic church Para.6 - Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church (Catholic church).
With all due respect, Leeann, this strikes me as arrogant. You believe you understand Catholic theology, yet you misrepresent it throughout your post? Sorry but I must challenge you on your “understanding”. I also challenge Catholics on their understanding about Mary, the Mother of God. Like it or not but there is only one Mary, no other like her. She is the New Eve. I too was a fundamental evangelical with a completely distorted view about Mary and what I thought the Catholic Church taught about Mary, so much that I stopped being Catholic and joined a bible only community of believers called the Church of Christ.
By Leeann
I had to go back and read through to see where this notion about Mary being *less than human *came from…and it is something that *you *have been putting forward…not me…if you read through carefully what I have posted…you will see that I truly believe in Mary’s humanity.
Again, this is a severe misunderstanding about our own nature, not just Jesus or Mary. Original sin is not sin, it is a term created to explain something the Church has always taught from the very beginning. Original sin might best described in modern terms as the original state of mans woundedness. The sin of Adam and Eve had them banished from perfection, eternity in perfect union with God. By being cast out our first parents created the scenario where their ancestors, their children, suffer from temptation in ways that bend our wills away from God. Adam and Eve chose perfectly to separate themselves from God. They were not affected by the stain of Original Sin. They created the situation where they an their children became stained with original sin. Our baptism washed away the stain of original sin, yet we continue to struggle in our less than perfect or less than human nature by the temptations of the world…called SIN. Mary is spoken about through scripture and a careful reading of this would almost be perfect proof of Mary’s role in salvation. However, because of the sin of division, caused from doubting Thomas’s our separated brethren we refer to ax non-Catholic Christians, suffer from their own concupiscence. “Concupiscence” is also another term created to explain man’s struggle with resisting temptation. Trinity is another term created to explain the nature of God. Purgatory is a term created to explain a scriptural based state where some sin separates us from God and others do not yet they must be purged like silver with a silver smith. Ever heard the story of how a silver smith knows when all impurities have been purged from silver? Look it up if you haven’t. So Original Sin is also a term created to explain the nature of man after the “Fall of Man”. Now Mary and an explanation about her is also explained with a new term called the “Immaculate Conception”. I doubt this will be received as true from our separated brethren.
I was actually going in the other direction entirely…stating that the Catholic [C]hurch has attempted to make Mary MORE than human.
Now that this has been clarified for you - and me - can you see that your question below simply doesn’t make sense with the “less than human” angle to it?
Read it again.
It is impossible to make any man greater than “Human”. What you mean is that the Church says she is perfectly Human. She is a creature created by God to bear a son, a perfect son that is also God made man. He humbled himself to become human….not like our broken human nature because of the affects of original sin or woundedness. Jesus and Mary were not affected by concupiscence the way we are. The explanation about her nature is what gives us the heeby jeebies, not that she was perfectly human.
It is really dangerous to talk about things you do not understand in light that they could make the difference of being saved, causing scandal, misleading souls, etc… You [we] bring condemnation on your [our] own head
I explain things about Church teachings by telling about my own story because of my first hand knowledge of struggling with this very subject that was a deal breaker for me in the beginning. But once I understood what was being said I became more calm by learning more about what was actually being taught. So here it goes…don’t take words that come across from me as harsh. My words are meant to convey a message…a purely Catholic message with terminology not accustomed to non-Catholic Christians combined with my own unique attempt at explaining things. So please bear with me.
By Leeann
Thank you FightingFat, but you don’t have to try to help me better understand what you believe…that has already been posted quite clearly by Raffo in post #25 - the vatican website with the Catechism of the Catholic church Para.6 - Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church (Catholic church).
With all due respect, Leeann, this strikes me as arrogant. You believe you understand Catholic theology, yet you misrepresent it throughout your post? Sorry but I must challenge you on your “understanding”. I also challenge Catholics on their understanding about Mary, the Mother of God. Like it or not but there is only one Mary, no other like her. She is the New Eve. I too was a fundamental evangelical with a completely distorted view about Mary and what I thought the Catholic Church taught about Mary, so much that I stopped being Catholic and joined a bible only community of believers called the Church of Christ.
By Leeann
I had to go back and read through to see where this notion about Mary being *less than human *came from…and it is something that *you *have been putting forward…not me…if you read through carefully what I have posted…you will see that I truly believe in Mary’s humanity.
Again, this is a severe misunderstanding about our own nature, not just Jesus or Mary. Original sin is not sin, it is a term created to explain something the Church has always taught from the very beginning. Original sin might best described in modern terms as the original state of mans woundedness. The sin of Adam and Eve had them banished from perfection, eternity in perfect union with God. By being cast out our first parents created the scenario where their ancestors, their children, suffer from temptation in ways that bend our wills away from God. Adam and Eve chose perfectly to separate themselves from God. They were not affected by the stain of Original Sin. They created the situation where they an their children became stained with original sin. Our baptism washed away the stain of original sin, yet we continue to struggle in our less than perfect or less than human nature by the temptations of the world…called SIN. Mary is spoken about through scripture and a careful reading of this would almost be perfect proof of Mary’s role in salvation. However, because of the sin of division, caused from doubting Thomas’s our separated brethren we refer to ax non-Catholic Christians, suffer from their own concupiscence. “Concupiscence” is also another term created to explain man’s struggle with resisting temptation. Trinity is another term created to explain the nature of God. Purgatory is a term created to explain a scriptural based state where some sin separates us from God and others do not yet they must be purged like silver with a silver smith. Ever heard the story of how a silver smith knows when all impurities have been purged from silver? Look it up if you haven’t. So Original Sin is also a term created to explain the nature of man after the “Fall of Man”. Now Mary and an explanation about her is also explained with a new term called the “Immaculate Conception”. I doubt this will be received as true from our separated brethren.
I was actually going in the other direction entirely…stating that the Catholic [C]hurch has attempted to make Mary MORE than human.
Now that this has been clarified for you - and me - can you see that your question below simply doesn’t make sense with the “less than human” angle to it?
Read it again.
It is impossible to make any man greater than “Human”. What you mean is that the Church says she is perfectly Human. She is a creature created by God to bear a son, a perfect son that is also God made man. He humbled himself to become human….not like our broken human nature because of the affects of original sin or woundedness. Jesus and Mary were not affected by concupiscence the way we are. The explanation about her nature is what gives us the heeby jeebies, not that she was perfectly human.
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eucharisteo
Guest
The same is true when we hear people say that something is wrong with a man or woman that chooses celibacy. The accusers can’t imagine not having sex so much that they drag everyone else down to their level. I know from personal experience. I went to the seminary to become a celibate priest. Later after having several bad encounters with un transformed Catholics I doubted the discipline of celibacy and jumped on that band wagon for another 18 years. You see I was baptized Catholic at 14 months old in a poorly catechized home with an anti-Catholic mother who raised me while dad was off to war.
I grew up in Protestant churches having only visited Catholic worship services with grandparents and aunts…very few masses a little boy growing up. Bible class was the norm for me in Protestant churches. Most Protestants I knew and know today HATE Catholics and the horse they road in on. What they really hate is what they don’t understand that is being misrepresented by well meaning Catholics who need more education on the Church’s teaching.
Understanding Mary became a conversion crisis point in my conversion to Catholicism once I realized that the Catholic Church was in fact the historical original Church of Christ, that is the Church that Christ founded and handed down from the very beginning… What I didn’t know was that the Eastern Orthodox Church was in union with the Catholic Church in the beginning and that they too have the very same strong devotion to the Blessed Mother and the Saints that have gone before us now made perfect in heaven. If neither of these were the true Church then the Church doesn’t exist anymore and everything we know as Protestant is made up as well… How do I know this…because of the bible… I’ve studied the bible thoroughly for over 18 years of my life… in fact that was purely bible only. I’ve studied the bible since I was 15 years old… I’m 48 now and have wanted to be a preacher my entire life. which I’m still working on by the way. So I have a vested interest in knowing and understanding the “Word of God”. Saying this doesn’t make me an expert it just clarifies that I want to know the truth, not some man made rules or ideas. As I’ve appraoched my belief in God this same way my entire life I also came to understand what I thought I already knew… What I thought I knew was not what was being taught. Though there are plenty of well meaning people that say the wrong things…misrepresent Catholic theology and Catholic teaching. God have mercy on us all.
cont’d
Furthermore…since I don’t hold too, or believe in what “the Church” says with regards to “their” Mary…how or why would you expect me to answer that question in any other way than I have already answered it , as stated before, to the best of my ability?file:///C:/Users/Mark/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif
Again you’re using insulting terminology to describe the only Mary, Mother of God, Mother of Jesus, that all Christians know and accept. Even Muslims believe in the Virgin birth that Mary gave to Jesus - they just don’t believe he was the Son of God. Since there is only one Mary that bore the God-Man [hypostatic union - another terminology created to understand the 2 natures of Jesus the Christ] So let’s stick to the one please. You’ve created a separate issue that comes across very insulting…it sounds like you’re insulting on purpose. You might as well say our God is different because we understand him differently. How insulting and arrogant and very non-ecumenical. Shouldn’t we be trying to truly understand what is taught rather than putting words in each others mouths?
Sorry for the length…I’m baby sitting and getting read to go to a meeting out of town for a deacon program I’m part of now.
I grew up in Protestant churches having only visited Catholic worship services with grandparents and aunts…very few masses a little boy growing up. Bible class was the norm for me in Protestant churches. Most Protestants I knew and know today HATE Catholics and the horse they road in on. What they really hate is what they don’t understand that is being misrepresented by well meaning Catholics who need more education on the Church’s teaching.
Understanding Mary became a conversion crisis point in my conversion to Catholicism once I realized that the Catholic Church was in fact the historical original Church of Christ, that is the Church that Christ founded and handed down from the very beginning… What I didn’t know was that the Eastern Orthodox Church was in union with the Catholic Church in the beginning and that they too have the very same strong devotion to the Blessed Mother and the Saints that have gone before us now made perfect in heaven. If neither of these were the true Church then the Church doesn’t exist anymore and everything we know as Protestant is made up as well… How do I know this…because of the bible… I’ve studied the bible thoroughly for over 18 years of my life… in fact that was purely bible only. I’ve studied the bible since I was 15 years old… I’m 48 now and have wanted to be a preacher my entire life. which I’m still working on by the way. So I have a vested interest in knowing and understanding the “Word of God”. Saying this doesn’t make me an expert it just clarifies that I want to know the truth, not some man made rules or ideas. As I’ve appraoched my belief in God this same way my entire life I also came to understand what I thought I already knew… What I thought I knew was not what was being taught. Though there are plenty of well meaning people that say the wrong things…misrepresent Catholic theology and Catholic teaching. God have mercy on us all.
cont’d
Furthermore…since I don’t hold too, or believe in what “the Church” says with regards to “their” Mary…how or why would you expect me to answer that question in any other way than I have already answered it , as stated before, to the best of my ability?file:///C:/Users/Mark/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif
Again you’re using insulting terminology to describe the only Mary, Mother of God, Mother of Jesus, that all Christians know and accept. Even Muslims believe in the Virgin birth that Mary gave to Jesus - they just don’t believe he was the Son of God. Since there is only one Mary that bore the God-Man [hypostatic union - another terminology created to understand the 2 natures of Jesus the Christ] So let’s stick to the one please. You’ve created a separate issue that comes across very insulting…it sounds like you’re insulting on purpose. You might as well say our God is different because we understand him differently. How insulting and arrogant and very non-ecumenical. Shouldn’t we be trying to truly understand what is taught rather than putting words in each others mouths?
Sorry for the length…I’m baby sitting and getting read to go to a meeting out of town for a deacon program I’m part of now.
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Irish_Catholic_1
Guest
Because Jesus want you to enter into his Covenant. In Heberew culture, a Covenant is the means by which one enters a family. In this case, we enter into the Family of God.
This is why we call God “Father”, why we call each other brother and sister, because we are adopted children of God. But more than that, this is why the saints in heaven are also our elder brothers and sisters, and why Mary is our spiritual mother. Jesus wants you to have all of this, in fact he DIED so that you may have all of this. Accept his great gift with joy and rejoincing. Being a Christian is not just a about a “personal” relationshiop with Jesus. I have a personal relationship with my mechanic, but that does not make him part of my family! Jesus wants you to be part of the family of God, which includes you, me, our Father, the saints, and our mother Mary.
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Leeann
Guest
Objective reality…this is interesting, could you please explain the Church’s infallible pronouncement of the Assumption of Mary doctrine by way of exhibiting this “objective reality.”…I truly don’t quite understand it all.
Of course it is good that the Catholic church teaches that Jesus is Lord along with the many other denominations that teach this.
In this forum itself there is a “Quick Questions” – keyword “doctrine”
Q - *I believe the creed to be the essential teaching of our Catholic faith, but why do I have to believe all this other stuff about Mary or papal infallibility? *
**A **- Because, if you believe the creed to be the essential teaching of our Catholic faith, you therefore “believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.” When that Church, with the apostolic authority described by the creed, promulgates dogmas (such as the dogmas concerning Mary or the infallibility of the pope), it is declaring that this teaching is something we have received, implicitly or explictly, from the apostles. You therefore are bound to believe it precisely because of what the creed teaches about the Church. You cannot pit the creed against the Church’s teaching of doctrine.
And there is also a “Quick Search” – under Salvation Outside the Church.
Why doesn’t it???
It follows more truly to the “human Mary of the gospels” because none of what the Catholic church teaches with regards to “their Mary’s” supposed Immaculate Conception is mentioned in the gospels.
God stated what He was going to do immediately upon discovery of Adam and Eve’s disobedience…which of course was well before Mary’s time……but how does that have anything to do with the necessity of Mary needing to have received “this grace of divine love at the moment of her conception” in order for her to be able “to love the Son of God with such pure love the moment she became a mother” ?
Typology…yes…and have discussed it at various times – but again, this is all to do with the development of the Catholic church’s Mary…their teachings…sorry…two different Mary’s.
Not at all.
My allegiance is not to the Catholic church and what it promotes as it’s “truth” that has been developed over centuries to the point of becoming a different religion from that which was taught and what was preached by the apostles when they established those first early churches.
My allegiance is to the Father/the Son/the Holy Spirit.
As for my humility before God – I’ll let Him be the judge of that.
I don’t think you are rude at all…just a very devout Catholic with a tendency to believe that you can speak for all Catholics and what they understand and believe about their own religion. Any information that I have gathered over the years, has come from other very devout Catholic believers. Something you should think about.
Thank you for the book references.
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Leeann
Guest
Okay, I’ll bear with you….as guanophore has pointed out….I’m determined and undaunted if nothing else.
Originally Posted by FightingFat
I don’t know why you’re being so evasive in answering a simple question, honestly, I am only trying to help you better understand what we believe, not convince you or change your mind, I know better than that!
By Leeann
Thank you FightingFat, but you don’t have to try to help me better understand what you believe…that has already been posted quite clearly by Raffo in post #25 - the vatican website with the Catechism of the Catholic church Para.6 - Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church (Catholic church).
With all due respect, Eucharisteo, you’ve taken a portion of a response I made with regards to a specific post where Raffo explained and posted the Catechism for another poster and myself….and I was advising FightingFat of this. …as well as in another post:
Post #67 Leeann: As Irish Catholic has already clearly pointed out by quoting from the catechism of the Catholic church and to which I thanked him/her for doing and have already responded too – it shows that it is not that they don’t believe Mary doesn’t need a Savior, but that they teach that Mary’s redemption came at the time of her conception….by the merits of Jesus…(not verbatim- just short to save time)….so in affect she was pre-redeemed before the time Jesus was born , was crucified and rose from the dead. I have always believed that Mary, just like everyone else needed the redemption that was offered through Jesus’ blood sacrifice. And that is the difference in the “Mary’s”.
As for my understanding of Catholic theology, I have never made claim to be able to understand it all…why would I and how could I, when it is obvious, that even devout Catholics have varying degrees of understanding of it – as you yourself indicate.
I have stated however:
I certainly don’t know what every Catholic believes…and would never attempt to tell you what you believe, however - what the Catholic church teaches is there for all to see in its catechsim. What individual Catholic’s believe may coincide with their teachings……or not….depending upon their own level of understanding as to what their church teaches.
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Leeann
Guest
1.Just by you stating there’s only one Mary…the Catholic church’s “Mary” doesn’t make it so.
2.I’m not a fundamental evangelical
Now does that not strike you as being just a bit arrogant, telling someone else what they “mean”.
Please don’t tell me what I mean.
It might be best for you to heed your own words – I quote:
“Please read thoroughly before responding… take time to contemplate too. It’s not as you may seem to believe. There’s an old saying “I know that you beleive you think you understand what you think I said but I’m not sure that you understood what you think I said that you heard”…something like that. It’s called mass confusion.”
…and now you are telling me (us) what gives me (us) the heeby jeebies……amazing.
- Status