Mary did what she was told

[Leeann]

I’ve always contended that it goes back to what kind of relationship they have with their own mothers. I think it is reflective of that.

I’ve thought of this also peary, from my perspective, this could be why there so many Catholic believers tend to cling to the Catholic church’s Mary, perhaps to lack of a positive maternal influence during their lifetime…something to fill the void for them?

 

[eucharisteo]

??
Quote:
Originally Posted by eucharisteo forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
YOU BELIEVE IN GOD? WOW!

??

Quote:
 	 		 			 				May God Bless you too.

Thank you!

I appologize… it sounded funny at the time I typed it. Obviously it was not very prudent… Foregive me.

 

[eucharisteo]

I’ve thought of this also peary, from my perspective, this could be why there so many Catholic believers tend to cling to the Catholic church’s Mary, perhaps to lack of a positive maternal influence during their lifetime…something to fill the void for them?

When I was 16, I adopted Jesus, Mary and Joseph as my spiritual family because my own family was so messed up. I needed a positive role model and the nurturing of a woman that cared. But I did this not knowing that the Church actually allowed this sort of concecration. I had yet to understand Mary’s relationship with the Church. It was instinctive.

 

[Good_Fella]

Jonah disobeyed, but he didn’t have any choice in the end did he? God sort of forced him to do what he wanted didn’t he?

Jonah relented, but eventually heeded the voice of his agitated conscience as depicted in the imagery of him being swallowed up by a whale. God gave us a conscience to help direct our will in conformity with his. And we will exercise our will to please God only if our love for Him rises to the occasion. Needless to say, unlike Jonah, Mary never relented. Her faith was perfect because of the infused knowledge she had received as a gift from the Holy Spirit through his habitual grace. Mary received the first plenitude of grace upon her immaculate conception, for she was predestined to be the Mother of God. If Mary had relented, which is out of the question in light of God’s efficacious will, the archangel Gabriel would have departed as quickly as he had after she actually pronounced her fiat, and the Holy Spirit would not have overshadowed her. To question whether Mary had a free will in the divine order of redemption amounts to questioning whether God is just and righteous - whether He is true to Himself! :yup:

*Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have boldness before God. *
1 John 3, 21

Re: Our Lady, can we show from Scripture that she was asked and not told?

A good question. I believe St. Luke was inspired by the Holy Spirit to construct the dialogue between Mary and the archangel Gabriel to preclude any question of whether Mary was asked or told to conceive and bear the Son of God. In fact, if we read the Annunciation narrative, we will see that the archangel Gabriel simply tells Mary what will happen in the indefinite future in a form of confirmation of what will actually transpire concerning the long-expected Messiah. God is the supreme literary genius. Before the angel announces the good news, he venerably salutes Mary as the one permanently perfected by grace from the first moment of her existence (kecharitomene), who has already found favour with God because of what He has efficaciously willed (that Mary be the worthy mother of His Only-begotten Son) and has infallibly foreseen from all eternity in view of the fall of Adam and Eve.

The habitual grace Mary had received, as an effect of her unique predestination, upon the creation of her soul dismisses the question of whether she was asked or told what to do. Mary was chosen and fashioned so that she could not deny the will of God because of a love infused by His grace. Love is not an acquired habit, as modern secular psychologists will contend, but rather an infused theological virtue and the principle of faith and all the cardinal and moral virtues. True love is a participation in the divine love and is primarily expressed towards God in recognition of his absolute goodness and righteousness. It is because of God, the supreme good (whom athiests will deny exists in spite of their notion of and search for unlimited goodness) and our love for Him that we should love our neighbour by the power of our will.

The archangel Gabriel knew that Mary would pronounce her* fiat*, or else he wouldn’t have appeared to her and say You have found favour with God and give her the good news as if everything had already been fulfilled. Mary was infused with the grace of knowledge as a consequence of her first plenitude of grace. And so, coupled with her love of God, she fully understood what the angel was telling her. And Gabriel knew that she would understand. Now Mary was a finite creature who naturally had to grow in knowledge, so it is understandable that she, as a pious Jew, had expected the Messiah to be of paternal lineage, which prompted her to ask: How shall this be, seeing I do not know a man? Nor did she know that she would be called to become the Mother of our Lord. The knowledge she had before the Annunciation served to help her live her life in complete conformity with the will of God so that she would remain in His love and be the worthy mother of His Only-begotten Son. St. John teaches us in his First Letter: To know God is to love him. Thus Mary never questioned anything about the Messiah nor her predestined vocation which she welcomed with all her heart in mutual love with her heavenly Father and accepted in all humility and poverty of spirit.

“He has looked with favour upon the lowliness of his handmaid.”
Luke 1, 48

“He was born of Mary the fair ewe.”
Melito de Sardo (c. A.D. 177)

God the Father owed it to Himself that the chosen mother of His Son be born of a worthy woman. The honour or dishonour of parents is reflected on their children (Proverbs 17:6). Mary had to be sinless because her divine Son was (Heb 4:15). Mary proved her worth and earned the pride of her Son when she freely consented to be the mother of the divine Messiah. As a result, she merited for herself an increase of the fulness of grace in quality and intensity and charity.

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Have you ever come across this idea from Fundamentalists? Mary was told by God she would carry Jesus and her acquiescence was irrelevant? Mary was not ASKED to bear the Messiah, she was TOLD she would. She simply acknowledged it would be done according to His will, not hers.

Any help? What Scripture should I be looking at here?

**Here’s the record: **
Luke 1:26-37:

26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. 30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

34 And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin?”

35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God. 36 And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God.” 38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

.

Note:

1. The angel ASKED nothing.
2. There’s NOTHING here about the angel seeking permission or authorization.
3. The angel proclaimed what would happen.
4. Mary did express her willingness, but there’s NOTHING in the text that suggests the proclaimation of the angel given before that was dependent upon such.

That’s just the facts, lol

.

 

[peary1]

Originally Posted by FightingFat
Have you ever come across this idea from Fundamentalists? Mary was told by God she would carry Jesus and her acquiescence was irrelevant? Mary was not ASKED to bear the Messiah, she was TOLD she would. She simply acknowledged it would be done according to His will, not hers.

Any help? What Scripture should I be looking at here?

Fundamentalists miss the whole concept of Mary’s HUMILITY when confronted by God’s messenger. This is something I have found fundies can’t comprehend because they lack so much of it themselves.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Fundamentalists miss the whole concept of Mary’s HUMILITY when confronted by God’s messenger. This is something I have found fundies can’t comprehend because they lack so much of it

1. How is believing that Mary’s will is all determinant a sign of her humility? Isn’t rather her obedience a much better sign of such? Mary taking the position that: I’m the lord of God, God CANNOT do things unless I approve of it!" hardly seems like great humility to ME.
2. I’m not a “Fundamentalist” but I know many. And I’ve NEVER heard any state that Mary wasn’t humble. Or that she did not willingly accept this task in humble, obedient, loving faith.

IMHO: accepting God’s will for her as “God’s handmaiden” IS a sign of humility, insisting that She is the lord over God and that God needs her expressed permission before He does anything would be the opposite.

Again, read the words of the text. Where does it say the angel asked for Mary’s approval or permission or authorization?

.

 

[Good_Fella]

1. How is believing that Mary’s will is all determinant a sign of her humility? Isn’t rather her obedience a much better sign of such? Mary taking the position that: I’m the lord of God, God CANNOT do things unless I approve of it!" hardly seems like great humility to ME.

The earth revolves around the sun by the will of God, but the earth isn’t being consciously obedient since it has no free will and cannot love. By necessity Mary freely obeyed God because she was humble and loved Him, unlike planet earth which is fixed and unconscious, apart from not being created in the divine image. Unless you are willing to love God and humble yourself to Him, by obeying his commandments or conforming to His will out of a conscious love, in all justice and righteousness, He will not save you. Forget about “boldly sinning.” :hypno: Christ’s righteousness is not imputed to our account, as the heretic Martin Luther believed. We freely obey or disobey God out of love or aversion. And we certainly shouldn’t presume to give God permission to save us in spite of our sins and disobedience, should we, just as much as we shouldn’t dare giving Him permission to save us on account of our faith in love?

No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him.
1 John 3, 6

Doctor Luther rejected the doctrine of Purgatory, so I doubt that his suggestion was mere hyberbole. He implicitly dared to give God permission to immediately receive sinners in Heaven even before they would make themselves pure as Christ was pure (by cooperation with the infused grace of God) or actively wash their robes clean with the blood of Christ through virtuous deeds. (1 Jn 3:2-3; Rev 19:7-8; 22:14-15; Rom 6:10-12). One cannot fully appreciate what Mary has merited for us as long as he clings to the unbiblical concept of sola fide.

“He was made man that we might be made God.”
St. Athanasius (A.D. 315)

Let anyone who wishes take the water of life as a gift.
Revelation 22, 17

What the archangel Gabriel proposed to Mary was a gift of salvation on our behalf. Mary could rejoice in God her saviour with absolute confidence (Lk 1:49), because she was already redeemed at the first instant of her conception by the forseen merits of her divine Son on account of her divine maternity. A gift is just that: something freely offered by the giver and freely received by the recipient. In a meritorius spirit of charity Mary freely consented to help bring the Saviour into the world out of consideration for humankind.

I’m not a “Fundamentalist” but I know many. And I’ve NEVER heard any state that Mary wasn’t humble. Or that she did not willingly accept this task in humble, obedient, loving faith.

Do your Fundamentalst friends believe that Mary had no free will? Or that they themselves have no choice about being saved?

Eve was no more a revolving planet than Mary was or than we are. Our “Yes” to God will benefit our individual selves, but unlike Eve’s “No”, Mary’s “Yes” to God has benefited humankind.
*
“Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”*
Luke 1, 45

IMHO: accepting God’s will for her as “God’s handmaiden” IS a sign of humility, insisting that She is the lord over God and that God needs her expressed permission before He does anything would be the opposite.

In all righteousness, God the Father (the Source of all righteousness) owed it to Himself that Mary freely consent to be the mother of His Only-begotten Son. It is not a question of giving God permission. It is a question of what is right. Jesus did not have to be baptized, but he consented to receive the sacrament to fulfill all righteousness by pleasing his heavenly Father. Because of the Son of Man’s humble and loving obedience and his willingness to please the Father, we have been redeemed. Jesus has set an example for all of us, which was perceived by Mary on the morning of the Annunciation through the infused knowledge she had gained by the grace of God. God does not have to redeem us, but unless we want to be redeemed and saved by faith working through love, He won’t save us.

There is no completed redemption for us if we reject God’s offer of salvation. Much of Christ’s agony in the garden was brought about by the knowledge of all those who would willingly reject his word and thus forfeit the divine offer of salvation. Those who do accept and conduct their lives in accord with the will of God are not giving Him permission to save them. Rather they are doing what God wants in order for them to be saved in accordance with His justice and plan of redemption. :yup:

Again, read the words of the text. Where does it say the angel asked for Mary’s approval or permission or authorization?

Where is it written that Mary had no choice in the matter?

PAX :heaven:

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Unless you are willing to love God and humble yourself to Him, by obeying his commandments or conforming to His will out of a conscious love, in all justice and righteousness, He will not save you.

The point here is not whether Mary was saved or not.

The point I addressed in the snippet you quoted from me was the comment that Mary giving her approval was a sign of humility, whereas Mary simply submitting would be a sign of pride. I actually think it’s the other way around. Mary saying, “I am the lord of God, God cannot do anything unless I approve of it first” seems less humble, more prideful to me than Mary replying, “God is the Lord, I am but His handmaiden.” Mary submitted, she didn’t grant her authorization for God.

Again, read the words of the text. The angel didn’t ask Mary for ANYTHING. The angel didn’t ask anyone anything. There’s NOTHING that suggests that Mary is the Lord of God and that God needs to run everything past Mary before He can think, say or do anything. Rather, the angel makes the prophecy. “You WILL conceive.” THEN Mary, humbly, replies, “I am the handmaiden of the LORD (God is the Lord of Mary - not the other way around!).”

.

 

[Good_Fella]

The point here is not whether Mary was saved or not.

The point is that God will not save anyone who wilfully rejects his offer of salvation. Mary freely accepted God’s offer to collaborate with Him in the work of salvation by consenting to conceive and bear our Redeemer. In the words of St. Paul (1 Cor 3:9):* We are God’s co-workers*. Obviously God has ordained that human beings participate in and through Christ’s principal mediation. Because of her faith and charity, Mary’s consent becomingly merited for us our salvation. Neither her faith nor love were the result of her own efforts outside the framework of divine grace. To be a worthy associate of our Lord, Mary had to cooperate with the plenitude of grace she was endowed with. And she couldn’t have unless God rightfully honoured her free will. We ourselves have been given the freedom from our heavenly Father to accept or reject His gift of grace. To deny Mary her free will is tantamount to denying the need of God’s grace for our salvation. If Mary had shunned God’s grace as Eve had and not unlike our biological mother had said “No” to God, then the Incarnation would not have happened. Not that God depended on Mary, but that He willed she freely conform her will with His through an act of faith in love which is necessary for our salvation. Not unlike Eve, Mary acted on the behalf of all humanity which includes her.

The point I addressed in the snippet you quoted from me was the comment that Mary giving her approval was a sign of humility, whereas Mary simply submitting would be a sign of pride. I actually think it’s the other way around. Mary saying, “I am the lord of God, God cannot do anything unless I approve of it first” seems less humble, more prideful to me than Mary replying, “God is the Lord, I am but His handmaiden.” Mary submitted, she didn’t grant her authorization for God.

Lucifer fell from heaven because he had refused to serve God out of pride. And it was because of pride and an aversion towards God that Adam and Eve fell from His grace. If they had resisted the temptation of the serpent and chose to remain in God’s favour by conforming their will with His, they wouldn’t have “authorized” God not to banish them from paradise because of their faith and love. God’s wisdom and justice would have prevailed without the necessity of having to satisfy the divine wrath by an act of atonement.

Again, read the words of the text. The angel didn’t ask Mary for ANYTHING. The angel didn’t ask anyone anything…

Please see my reply (#102) above.

God made man from the beginning and left him in the exercise of his own counsel.
Ecclesiastics 15, 14

“As the human race was subjected to death by the act of a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.”
St. Irenaeus (A.D. 180)

PAX :heaven:

 

[Leeann]

Good Fella

“As the human race was subjected to death by the act of a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.”
St. Irenaeus (A.D. 180)

Different religion!

1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22

21/ For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.

22/ For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

 

[Leeann]

The point here is not whether Mary was saved or not.

The point I addressed in the snippet you quoted from me was the comment that Mary giving her approval was a sign of humility, whereas Mary simply submitting would be a sign of pride. I actually think it’s the other way around. Mary saying, “I am the lord of God, God cannot do anything unless I approve of it first” seems less humble, more prideful to me than Mary replying, “God is the Lord, I am but His handmaiden.” Mary submitted, she didn’t grant her authorization for God.

Again, read the words of the text. The angel didn’t ask Mary for ANYTHING. The angel didn’t ask anyone anything. There’s NOTHING that suggests that Mary is the Lord of God and that God needs to run everything past Mary before He can think, say or do anything. Rather, the angel makes the prophecy. “You WILL conceive.” THEN Mary, humbly, replies, “I am the handmaiden of the LORD (God is the Lord of Mary - not the other way around!).”

.

Well stated American Josiah!

 

[Good_Fella]

Different religion!

1 Corinthians 15:21 - 22

21/ For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.

22/ For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Out of context. I suggest you examine the meaning of St. Irenaeus’ words before you pick cherries to accommodate your personal bias. Your understanding of the Scriptures differs from what the Apostles have handed down to us by tradition as taught by the Church Fathers. The new gospel St. Paul warns us against accepting belongs to your religion. I see you are still a church unto yourself.

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the Church.
Colossians 1, 24

For we are co-workers with God.
1 Corinthians 3, 9

You made them a kingdom and priests for our God, and they will reign on the earth.
Revelation 5, 10

On those who waver, have mercy; save others by snatching them out of the fire.
Jude 23

And your own soul a sword shall pierce, so that the hidden thoughts of many may be revealed.
Luke 2, 35

PAX

 

[Leeann]

---

“As the human race was subjected to death by the act of a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.”
St. Irenaeus (A.D. 180)***

Good Fella:
Out of context. I suggest you examine the meaning of St. Irenaeus’ words before you pick cherries to accommodate your personal bias.

“personal bias”…hmmm…as opposed to your own personal bias…as is evident in the quote you chose to post and the contents that point to …whom???

Good Fella:
Your understanding of the Scriptures differs from what the Apostles have handed down to us by tradition as taught by the Church Fathers.

Surprise…surprise.

Good Fella:
The new gospel St. Paul warns us against accepting belongs to your religion.

Another opinion handed down by tradition as taught by your “Church Fathers”?

I see you are still a church unto yourself.

I see you are still inept at understanding and applying scripture appropriately.

 

[KathleenGee]

Exactly…taken out of context…

 

[peary1]

The only reason someone would begin a thread with such a title is that the person probably orders his wife around like she’s somesort of slave dog…else he is divorced once, twice, maybe three or more times.

A person with such a bestial personality wouldn’t be able to discover much less recognize any virtue such as humility because he does not possess any of it himself. More’s the pity.

 

[Good_Fella]

---

“As the human race was subjected to death by the act of a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.”
St. Irenaeus (A.D. 180)***

Another opinion handed down by tradition as taught by your “Church Fathers”?

St.Irenaeus was originally taught by St. Polycarp, who himself was taught by the apostle St. John. Hence, the former’s Marian teachings are a development of what was handed down to him by apostolic tradition. His teachings (Marian or Christological) are not novelties of his own independently devised by proof-reading Scriptural texts. Rather they bring into fuller relief what is written implicitly in the Scriptures and was preached orally more explicitly by the apostles and their direct associates.

Our Church Fathers? Well, at least you’re honest enough to own that you are outside the Church founded by Christ. Protestantism appeared over 600 years after the death of the last Church Father.

I see you are still inept at understanding and applying scripture appropriately.

It’s inappropriate to interpret the Scriptures divorced from apostolic tradition and without any deference towards the universal magisterium of the Church. The private interpretation of Scripture is the primary cause of Protestant disunity in faith and morals. My above replies are in keeping with the Catholic faith as handed down to us by the apostles and their valid successors in the episcopate. I’m not a dissenter.

PAX :harp:

 

[Good_Fella]

Hi Jon

Yes, if you consider Mary was human like all of us, then certainly she would have the free will to do so, however the Catholic church’s “Mary” was/is apparently *not *human like all of us…they present her as someone born without sin.

We believe Mary was preserved free from the stain of original sin at the first instant of her conception, and that John the Baptist was born without the stain of sin having been sanctified in his mother’s womb at the moment Elizabeth heard the sound of her cousin’s greeting. Anyway, Jesus was both fully divine and fully human with both a divine will and a human will. And he was sinless. Do you deny the Son of Man was really human and had a free will like ours because he was sinless, as Catholics believe? Or do you believe that Jesus wasn’t fully human at all and simply possessed a divine will with no human will to act in conformity with it? Our free will is an attribute of our having been created in God’s image. And for this reason God will respect it in his wisdom and righteousness.

PAX :harp:

 

[Bussi]

This is what I have been taught, accept and believe;

1. We all receive the gifts of free will, intellect, and reason from God and He expects us to use them wisely and not abuse them. In addition. all the graces necessary for our individual salvation are made available to us but on condition that we properly exercise our intellect and free will and cooperate those graces to ultimately achieve the Beatific Vision in Heaven.
2. Since God exists in “the ever present now” (Time only exists and continues in the natural/material world that we know and can experience), Mary could be preserved from the effects of OS because of the merits of Jesus’ ONE and ONLY sacrifice on Calvary. Therefore, Mary was preserved from the effects of Original Sin (OS), namely concupiscence
3. At the Annunciation the angel greeted Mary with the salutation, “Hail full of Grace…,” and then went on to reveal to her that she would would bear Jesus as her son. According to the bible Mary asked only one question, “How can this be since I have not known man?”
4. As I understand it, God will not interfere with our complete autonomy in exercising our free will, but He can and does make Actual Grace available at particular moments so that we can exercise our intellect and powers of reason in making the proper choice.
5. I believe that Mary had Actual Graces available to her at that precise moment so she was able to exercise her free will autonomously without reservation nor external compulsion and say, “Be it done according to thy word.” This is what is commonly called Mary’s “fiat.”
6. Therefore, Mary wasn’t told what to do but instead she freely chose to do what God asked her to do.

 

[Bussi]

This is what I have been taught, accept and believe;

1. We all receive the gifts of free will, intellect, and reason from God and He expects us to use them wisely and not abuse them. In addition. all the graces necessary for our individual salvation are made available to us but on condition that we properly exercise our intellect and free will and cooperate those graces to ultimately achieve the Beatific Vision in Heaven.
2. Since God exists in “the ever present now” (Time only exists and continues in the natural/material world that we know and can experience), Mary could be preserved from the effects of OS because of the merits of Jesus’ ONE and ONLY sacrifice on Calvary. Therefore, Mary was preserved from the effects of Original Sin (OS), namely concupiscence
3. At the Annunciation the angel greeted Mary with the salutation, “Hail full of Grace…,” and then went on to reveal to her that she would would bear Jesus as her son. According to the bible Mary asked only one question, “How can this be since I have not known man?”
4. As I understand it, God will not interfere with our complete autonomy in exercising our free will, but He can and does make Actual Grace available at particular moments so that we can exercise our intellect and powers of reason in making the proper choice.
5. I believe that Mary had Actual Graces available to her at that precise moment so she was able to exercise her free will autonomously without reservation nor external compulsion and say, “Be it done according to thy word.” This is what is commonly called Mary’s “fiat.”
6. Therefore, Mary wasn’t told what to do but instead she freely chose to do what God asked her to do.