Mary ever-virgin?

[mikeabele]

It struck me reading about the prophecy of Mary in Isaiah. The Bible records Mary a virgin, until she gave birth to Jesus, then never calls her that again. Here are all the “virgin” Mary references in the Scriptures:

Isa 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.

Matt 1:23
Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Luke 1:27
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David: and the virgin’s name was Mary.

Where does Scripture say she remained a virgin?

 

[Fidelis]

I presume that by raising the question you are implying that since the Scriptures don’t mention a fact after a certain point, it must no longer be the case. This is faulty reasoning and applying it to other situations accentuates it’s absurdity.

For example, Jesus is called the carpenter’s son in Matthew 13 and Mark 6-- does this mean that after this time he wasn’t? Also, after 2 Timothy (his last letter), Paul is not called an Apostle—did he cease to be one? I’m sure the examples could be multiplied in number and absurdity, but get the idea. If something (like Mary’s virginity) is not pertinent to the situation or context after a certain point, there is no reason to mention it.

 

[RyanL]

please read these two links, and let me know what other questions you have.
catholic.com/library/mary_ever_virgin.asp
catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp

Luke 1:46And Mary said, “My soul doth magnify the Lord”

May the Blessed Mother look kindly on you, and may her soul maginify the Lord for you,
RyanL

 

[jax8686]

one nice response i like giving is this:

the Catholic church has been around since then, people in the Church knew Mary personally… im sure if things had changed, someone would have filled us in a long time ago…

 

[tuopaolo]

mikeabele:

It struck me reading about the prophecy of Mary in Isaiah. The Bible records Mary a virgin, until she gave birth to Jesus, then never calls her that again. Here are all the “virgin” Mary references in the Scriptures:

Isa 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.

Matt 1:23
Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Luke 1:27
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David: and the virgin’s name was Mary.

Where does Scripture say she remained a virgin?

Scripture really implicitly states that she remained a virgin because virginity is like a virtue, a form of faithfulness to God – in Mary’s case a consecration to God. It would be like if Scripture referred to someone as a Sister – the assumption would be that that person remained a Sister (rather than petitioning the Pope to get her vows dispensed).

 

[mikeabele]

I was just shocked at how little the Bible had to say about virgin Mary, compared to how much the RCC says about it. The Douay-Rheims Bible says that she did not stay a virgin after Christ’s virgin birth:

Matt 1:24,25
24 And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife. 25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her first born son: and he called his name Jesus.

Mary also had other children:

John 2:12
After this, he went down to Capharnaum, he and his mother and his brethren and his disciples: and they remained there not many days.

John 7:2-10
2 Now the Jews feast of tabernacles was at hand. 3 And his brethren said to, him: Pass from hence and go into Judea, that thy disciples also may see thy works which thou dost. 4 For there is no man that doth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, manifest thyself to the world. 5 For neither did his brethren believe in him. 6 Then Jesus said to them: My time is not yet come; but your time is always ready. 7 The world cannot hate you: but me it hateth, because I give testimony of it, that the works thereof are evil, 8 Go you up to this festival day: but I go not up to this festival day, because my time is not accomplished. 9 When he had said these things, he himself stayed in Galilee. 10 But after his brethren were gone up, then he also went up to the feast, not openly, but, as it were, in secret.

Galatians 1:19
19 But other of the apostles I saw none, saving James the brother of the Lord.

Acts 1:14
14 All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Matt 13:54-57
54 And coming into his own country, he taught them in their synagogues, so that they wondered and said: How came this man by this wisdom and miracles? 55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude: 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence therefore hath he all these things? 57 And they were scandalized in his regard. But Jesus said to them: A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

The Scripture is plain, Mary was a virgin when she bore Christ, afterwards she had a normal marital relationship with her husband Joseph and had at least 6 children.

Some would say that Mary had to remain a virgin or this would defile the womb that bore Jesus, the Scripture says:

Hebrews 13:4
4 Marriage honourable in all, and the bed undefiled. For fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

Now where does the Scripture state that Mary remained a virgin? For Scripture cannot contradict itself.

 

[Axion]

All these arguments are already dealt with on this thread.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=45574

The constant teaching of the church tells us that the Virgin mary was always a virgin. How could she not be without making Jesus or her supposed “other children” illegitimate?

here are two posts of mine from the other thread that explain some things…

And this is the problem with trying to understand 1st Century texts reporting ancient Hebrew culture, on the basis of twenty first century suburban western attitudes and a poor English translation.

The words “brothers” and “sisters” in Aramaic - and in many other languages has a meaning that extends to all close kinsfolk.

In fact while James and Joses are mentioned as Jesus’s brothers in Matthew 13:55, it is made clear in Mathew 27:56 and Mark 15:40 that their mother was ANOTHER Mary.

Matthew 27.55 There were also many women there, looking on from afar, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him; 56 among whom were Mary Mag’dalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zeb’edee.

This other Mary is identified in John 19:25, where a literal translation of the original Greek states. “But by he cross of Jesus the Mother of Him AND the sister of the Mother of Him, Mary the wife of Cleopas AND Mary the Magdalene.”
The precise positioning of the ANDs makes it clear that there were three women called Mary here, and that Mary the wife of Cleophas (called the Virgin Mary’s sister) is the same as the mother of Joses and James.

Jude/Judas identifies himself in his epistle as BROTHER of James, but significantly only as SERVANT of Jesus. To have identified himself as Jesus’s blood brother would have added enormous weight to his epistle, but he doesn’t so identify himself here. We know the reason, because James and Joseph are identified as sons of the OTHER Mary in Matthew 27 and Mark 15. Judas then seems to be another son of Mary the wife of Clopas.

 

[Axion]

The Third Apostle James?

In order to allege that the Apostle James, “brother” of Jesus was a Son of Mary, you have to invent a shadowy third Apostle called James. Is this credible?

James “Brother of Jesus” is referred to as one of the APOSTLES by Paul in Galatians 1.9. Yet we know from Matthew 10:2-4 that neither of the Apostles named James was actually a Son of the Virgin Mary! One of the Apostles James, is however, the Son of ALPHAEUS, who most bible scholars agree is the same person as Clopas - already identified as Father of James and Joseph.

So if James “brother of Jesus” was an Apostle, he cannot have been a son of Mary.

One can argue that a **third **James, supposed blood brother of Jesus, was elevated to the Apostleship at some time after the resurrection. However this presents a number of difficulties.

a) Why is this “third James” **never **mentioned in the gospel accounts?
b) Why would the Apostles take a non-apostle as their leader in Jerusalem?
b) Why is the 3rd James’s elevation to Apostle not mentioned in scripture?
c) Why did Jesus give Mary as Mother to John, if this “third James” existed?
d) What happened to the “second” James, son of Alphaeus after the resurrection? If we imagine a “third James”, then James the Apostle, son of Alphaeus disappears from history mysteriously at exactly the same time the supposed “third James”, just as mysteriously appears.

Is it not obvious that it is James the Apostle, Cousin of Jesus, who is the Apostle and “brother of the Lord” of the early church in Jerusalem?

The “Third James” hypothesis doesn’t hold water.

 

[Fidelis]

mikeabele:

I was just shocked at how little the Bible had to say about virgin Mary, compared to how much the RCC says about it.

You should be equally shocked that the Bible says nothing about Sola Scriptura, since Protestants hang everything they believe on that docrine.

The Douay-Rheims Bible says that she did not stay a virgin after Christ’s virgin birth:

It says nothing of the kind. All it says it that she was a virgin until he was born–it says nothing about what happened after that. The implication is an imposed one.

Now where does the Scripture state that Mary remained a virgin? For Scripture cannot contradict itself.

I answered this question above in post 2. If you’re going to ignore an answer, at least have the courtesy to not repeat the question.

 

[RyanL]

mikeabele:

I was just shocked at how little the Bible had to say about virgin Mary, compared to how much the RCC says about it

short answer…you’re reading your bible wrong. mary is ALL OVER the bible, from genesis to revelations, and explicitly there at EVERY key moment in salvation history. did you read the links i provided?!? try reading 2 sam 6 against luke 1. re-read gen 3:15. re-read rev 12. do a web search for “kacharitomene”.

how do you think luke knew what happened at the annunciation? could it be that mary told him, and instructed him on how prophesy was fulfilled through her? perhaps there’s a reason why “all generations” should “call her blessed”…

you also seemed to skip my quote:

Luke 1:46 And Mary said, “My soul doth magnify the Lord”

how does mary’s soul maginfy the Lord for you?

May the Ever Virgin Mother of God pray for you,
RyanL

btw, Fidelis, i am consistantly impressed by the quality of your posts!

 

[mikeabele]

RyanL:

short answer…you’re reading your bible wrong.

Perhaps you could teach me

RyanL:

mary is ALL OVER the bible, from genesis to revelations

Actually Jesus is ALL OVER the bible, there are very few(only two I can think of) references to Mary in the OT, and only a few verses in the NT of her. The last words spoken by Mary are “Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.”(John 2:5)

RyanL:

, and explicitly there at EVERY key moment in salvation history.

Where was Mary when Abraham was credited with rightousness for having faith in God? Are you saying that before Mary was born that no one had salvation?

RyanL:

did you read the links i provided?!?

I have but it appeals to many extra-biblical sources(don’t give me the whole “sola scriptura”/trinity/etc line, it really is old),
check out purely Biblical sources:
gotquestions.org/virgin-Mary.html%between%
justforcatholics.org/a105.htm%between%

RyanL:

try reading 2 sam 6 against luke 1.

You will have to help me out with this one, I see nothing remotely related to Mary in 2 Sam.

RyanL:

re-read gen 3:15.

You must mean the DRV version:

15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

The NAB corrects the mistranslation:

15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

RyanL:

re-read rev 12

That passage is about Israel. Note the 12 stars/12 tribes connection. Mary didn’t have 12 tribes, but Israel certainly did. Read:

gotquestions.org/Revelation-chapter-12.html

.

RyanL:

do a web search for “kacharitomene”.

I did a search, I found a bunch of people talking about ‘full of grace’, the Bible only calls Jesus ‘full of grace’. The words in Luke 1 actually mean “highly favoured” and “accepted” as in Eph 1:6. Mary is not the source of grace, as some would claim.

RyanL:

how do you think luke knew what happened at the annunciation? could it be that mary told him, and instructed him on how prophesy was fulfilled through her?

Luke learned from The Holy Spirit

Mary did not teach him according to Scripture, the prophesy was already fulfilled in that Christ was born to a virgin. Christ fulfilled OT prophesy of the Messiah.

RyanL:

perhaps there’s a reason why “all generations” should “call her blessed”…

Because she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus. Big jump between blessed and “full of grace”.

RyanL:

you also seemed to skip my quote:

Luke 1:46 And Mary said, “My soul doth magnify the Lord”

how does mary’s soul maginfy the Lord for you?

HUH?, Mary is praising the Lord for being her savior(only sinners need a Savior). Note Mary points to Christ, not herself.

RyanL:

May the Ever Virgin Mother of God pray for you,

I pray to God alone through Christ Jesus the great High priest, the one that was tempted in every way yet without sin. Why would I pray/ask prayer to/from a created being that was also a sinner and cannot hear me, nor millions at a time. The Bible never tells anyone to pray to Mary or any other believer in heaven.

 

[RyanL]

mikeabele:

Perhaps you could teach me

I would love to, but you have to promise to discuss politely.

mikeabele:

Actually … only a few verses in the NT of her.

like i said, you’re reading it wrong. if you’re doing a word-search for “mary”, you’re going to miss a lot. likewise, if you do an OT search for “jesus”, you’re going to miss just as much.

mikeabele:

Where was Mary when Abraham … no one had salvation?

first point: when i speak about “salvation history”, i’m speaking of Christ and His earthly life.
second point: no, no one was “saved” before Christ reconciled the world. if people could have been saved without Christ, there would have been have been no need for Christ (the bible says as much).

mikeabele:

I have but it appeals to many extra-biblical sources…check out purely Biblical sources:

i’ll work on reading these tonight. i promise to keep an open mind if you will…

mikeabele:

You will have to help me out with this one, I see nothing remotely related to Mary in 2 Sam.

the Holy Spirit, who inspired all scripture, sought fit to parallel these these two texts (from CA site):

The … most compelling type of Mary … is the ark of the covenant. In Exodus , chapters 25 through 30 the Lord gives Moses a detailed plan for the construction of the ark, the special container which would carry the Commandments. …staring in chapter 35 and continuing to chapter 40, Moses repeats word for word each of the details of … construction.

Why? It was a way of emphasizing how crucial it was for the Lord’s exact specifications to be met (Ex. 25:9, 39:42-43). God wanted the ark to be as perfect and unblemished as humanly possible so it would be worthy of the honor of bearing the written Word of God. How much more so would God want Mary, the ark of the new covenant, to be perfect and unblemished since she would carry within her womb the Word of God in flesh.

When the ark was completed, “the cloud covered the meeting tent and the glory of the Lord filled the dwelling. Moses could not enter the meeting tent, because the cloud settled down upon it and the glory of the Lord filled the dwelling” (Ex. 40:34-38). Compare this with the words of Gabriel to Mary in Luke 1:35.

There’s another striking foreshadowing of Mary as the new ark of the covenant in 2 Samuel 6. The Israelites had lost the ark in a battle with their enemies, the Philistines, and had recently recaptured it. King David sees the ark being brought to him and, in his joy and awe, says “Who am I that the ark of the Lord should come to me?” (1 Sam. 6:9).

Compare this with Elizabeth’s nearly identical words in Luke 1:43. Just as David leapt for joy before the ark when it was brought into Jerusalem (2 Sam. 6:14-16), so John the Baptist leapt for joy in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary, the ark of the new covenant, came into her presence (Luke 1:44). John’s leap was for precisely the same reason as David’s–not primarily because of the ark itself, but because of what the ark contained, the Word of God.

Another parallel may be found in 2 Samuel 6:10-12 where we read that David ordered the ark diverted up into the hill country of Judea to remain with the household of Obededom for three months. This parallels the three-month visit Mary made at Elizabeth’s home in the hill country of Judea (Luke 1:39-45, 65). While the ark remained with Obededom it “blessed his household.” This is an Old Testament way of saying the fertility of women, crops, and livestock was increased. Notice that God worked this same miracle for Elizabeth and Zachariah in their old age as a prelude to the greater miracle he would work in Mary.

can you see how it’s **possible **that this may be the case? i’m not saying “do you think it is”, but only if you could see how some may see these layed out together and come up with a parallel?

mikeabele:

You must mean the DRV version:
The NAB corrects the mistranslation:

there is a lot of debate on how to correctly interpret this verse, and i don’t intend to get into it. the point is, however, they work together and crush the serpent. this all makes sense when mary is seen as “the new eve”. we’ll see how this post goes, and if it’s well received we’ll go from “ark of the new covenant” to “the new eve”…

mikeabele:

That passage is about Israel. Note the 12 stars/12 tribes connection… Read:

i’ll read it tonight, and again i’ll keep an open mind. please keep an open mind when i say that **everyone else **in rev 12 is a literal person, and israel is never portrayed as a literal woman anywhere else in scripture (sometimes israel is portrayed as a “bride”, but never as a physically described woman). again, could you see how it’s possible to read rev 12 and the woman who gives birth to Christ having something to do with mary?

i’ll pause for now, and let you respond,
RyanL

 

[Pax]

Mike,

Scripture has great depth and there are frequently several layers of meaning to given verses. Revelation 12 is one of those chapters that has several layers. The reference to the woman has significance to Mary, to Israel, and to the Church. Each of them fits the meaning of the chapter in some ways but not necessarily in all ways. Most scholars do see a tremendous connection between Revelation 12 and Genesis 3. The references in both are to individuals. Satan is the ancient serpent, Jesus is the male child that will rule with an iron rod, and Mary is the mother that gives birth to Jesus.

The connection to the Ark of the Covenant is unmistakeable when reading the last verse of Rev 11as it leads into Chapter 12. Tying this to the references in Luke and 2nd Samuel further reinforces the connections. Moreover, the term “overshadow” in reference to Mary in Luke 1:35 is very instructive. This term/word in the orignial languages only occurs in the OT in reference to the dedication of the Ark and the dedication of the Temple. There is so much to study and learn in scripture about the mother of Jesus. Modern protestants are not taught to see these things in scripture. If anything, they are taught to shun them. Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli are the fathers of Protestant reformation theology. All of them accepted the teachings of the Catholic Church concerning the blessed virgin Mary. Here are some sources you might find interesting and helpful:

bcpl.net/~spohl/MaryArkoftheCovenant.htm

bcpl.net/~spohl/MarytheNewEve.htm

bcpl.net/~spohl/MarianDo…alDoctrines.htm

bcpl.net/~spohl/MaryDoctrinesintheBible.htm

bcpl.net/~spohl/PrayertoMaryandtheSaints.htm

catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

---

 

[RyanL]

pax,

do you have better links w/ the same info? the formatting on these is really messing with my browser…they’re disjointed and don’t seem to flow very well…

pax, pax,

RyanL

 

[RyanL]

pax,

actually, it’s really only the first two posts that are slightly skewed in the formatting … the third post gives me a 505 error. after post three, they seem to work fine!

RyanL

 

[tuopaolo]

mikeabele:

The Douay-Rheims Bible says that she did not stay a virgin after Christ’s virgin birth:

No it doesn’t. Please stop saying things which aren’t true.

Matt 1:24,25
24 And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife. 25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her first born son: and he called his name Jesus.

If I say, “Jack and Jill were faithful to each other from the moment of their engagement till the day of their wedding” – would that mean that Jack and Jill were unfaithful the day after their wedding? Of course not. Your interpretation thus is absurd. If anything by highlighting the faithfulness between Jack and Jill from the moment of their engagement till the day of their wedding I am implying or suggesting that they continued to remain faithful and lived happily ever after. Likewise the scripture you quote here, if anything, implies or suggests that Joseph continued to remain respectful of Mary’s virginal consecration till the last days of his just life.

 

[jax8686]

I pray to God alone through Christ Jesus the great High priest, the one that was tempted in every way yet without sin. Why would I pray/ask prayer to/from a created being that was also a sinner and cannot hear me, nor millions at a time. The Bible never tells anyone to pray to Mary or any other believer in heaven.

i give you a quote from CA:

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

and sure the saints were sinners on earth… who wasnt? (other than the obvious) but Nothing unpure will enter heaven. so when they get to heaven, their sins are washed away, never to be seen again. for the rest of it, i strongly reccomend you read this: catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

 

[mikeabele]

jax8686:

and sure the saints were sinners on earth… who wasnt? (other than the obvious) but Nothing unpure will enter heaven. so when they get to heaven, their sins are washed away, never to be seen again. for the rest of it, i strongly reccomend you read this: catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Revelation 5:7-9 (NABWRNT)
7 He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne.8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.9 They sang a new hymn: “Worthy are you to receive the scroll and to break open its seals,for you were slain and with your blood you purchased for Godthose from every tribe and tongue, people and nation.

Also…

Revelation 8:3-4 (NABWRNT)
3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

In the book of Revelation we read about the saints (Christians) on earth praying to God. The incense that is offered to God by the angel and the elders symbolizes their prayers.
It must be emphasized that the incense represents the prayers of the saints – that is, the prayers of Christians on earth. Twice we are told that the incense is ‘the prayers of the saints.’ Therefore the incense does not represent the intercessory prayers of the angel or the elders in heaven. Moreover, these prayers were addressed to God, and not to the elders in heaven or to the angel, for the incense ascended up before God. The saints on earth were praying to God; they were not asking the angels or saints in heaven to pray for them.

Clearly these passages do not teach us to pray to departed saints or angels, nor that they are interceding for us. If anyone desires to learn from the Bible about prayer, he would be in no doubt to whom he should address his prayers.

From the dawn of human existence, when men begun to call upon the name of the Lord (Genesis 4:26), to the last prayer recorded in the Bible (Revelation 22:20), the consistent example of all God’s people was to address their prayers to the Lord. Jesus teaches us by His example to pray to God (Luke 6:12). Jesus also teaches us to address our prayers to ‘our Father in heaven.’ The apostles and the disciples prayed to the Lord. We are taught to pray ‘for’ (not ‘to’) all saints, that is, we should pray for the needs of the living Christians on earth (Ephesians 6:18).

Communication with the dead is the practice of pagan religions and the occult, and not the Judeo-Christian faith as recorded in the Bible. The prophet Isaiah in chapter 8 tells us:

And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them

Deuteronomy 18:9-12 (NABWRNT)

9 “When you come into the land which the LORD, your God, is giving you, you shall not learn to imitate the abominations of the peoples there.10 Let there not be found among you anyone who immolates his son or daughter in the fire, nor a fortune-teller, soothsayer, charmer, diviner,11 or caster of spells, nor one who consults ghosts and spirits or seeks oracles from the dead.12 Anyone who does such things is an abomination to the LORD, and because of such abominations the LORD, your God, is driving these nations out of your way.

 

[PJR]

Mary’s spouse is the Holy Spirit. Joseph was betrothed to her and kept his promise to her after being guided by the angel.

She conceived by the Holy Spirit. How could she have ever conceived by anyone else again? That logic makes immaculate conception and perpetual virginity seem obvious. It gives all the OT prophecies and her foreshadowing as the Ark of the Covenant, the queen of heaven, etc, the proper context, or Catholic eyes for these truths.

Her first was the Holy Spirit. Read all the passages you quote with that in mind. Did she get an annulment?

 

[mikeabele]

PJR,

Mary was betrothed to Joseph, not the Holy Spirit. She married Joseph not the Holy Spirit. After giving birth to Christ as a virgin, Joseph knew his wife. This is how the Scripture describes a married couple. I think you might not want to quote the queen of heaven as Mary from Scripture, those who look to her are wicked before the Lord:

Jeremiah 7:16-20

16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee. 17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queena of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. 19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces? 20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

Jeremiah 44:15-23

15 Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying, 16 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee. 17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queene of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. 18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. 19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our menf?

20 Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him that answer, saying, 21 The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and came it not into his mind? 22 So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day. 23 Because ye have burned incense, and because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, nor walked in his law, nor in his statutes, nor in his testimonies; therefore this evil is happened unto you, as at this day.