Mary in Islam

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Why can’t Christians accept that Mohammed enforced God throughout Arabia, though with far less brutality, the same way Israel enforced God throughout Canaan, in order to obtain the blessing for Ishmael.
Mohammed is false and there are many proofs to support that claim, so that is why right thinking Christians/Catholics reject anything from the Qur’an and the Mohammedan religion.

1.) All OT prophets were Jews/Hebrew.
2.) Angels that visited people said “Do not be afraid…”
3.) Jews were chosen for a variety of reasons to include purification and not the least of which resulted in the birth of Mary who is pure and brought Christ into the world.
4.) God does not force Himself on others to be worshiped- ever.

Mohammed was not a Jew and his relationship to Abraham through Ishmael is not significant to uphold his claim to being a prophet from the God of Abraham. The blessing went to Isaac.

The unidentified spirit that threw Mohammed to the ground three times frightened him to the point where he tried to kill himself before returning to his first wife who then went to her uncle who said it was an angel. The uncle has no clue or reason to say that, it is unsupported, and the rest of the hadith that does say who it is, is suspect because it adds a self-fulfilling prophecy well after the event took place.

Even the devil will not cast soil on some pure things like Mary and though the Quran was authored in part by - in my view- the same demon who tempted Christ 600 years before in the desert- much of the Quran is from the illiterate mind of Mohammed. Any similarity the Quran has with both the OT and NT is nothing significant, but where they differ is highly significant. Any reverence the Quran bestows on Mary is still tainted by the exclusion of the full meaning of her worth to humanity.

Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon…all had a choice. they agreed (for the Jews) to Gods requirements…to do as He said, and live by His rules or else they would risk being abandoned by God. Christ commanded His Apostles to take the message to the world after He brought it to the Jews, but if it is rejected to shake the dust from their shoes and go to the next town to spread the Good News. He told them it was time to take a sword once He was gone because of the dangers. One disciple said “here are two, Lord.” Christ replied…“That is enough”. Clearly this is not a call to arms or war to spread the Word of God but simple self defense in First century life.

I have a question for you…and other Moslems that continually goes unanswered which is why it has been such a long time since I visited this site and went round and round with Moslems over the same tired issues.

How can Moslems suspend simple logic when comparing Christ to Mohammed? Christ did not kill, marry children, steal, or have male and female slaves. Christ did not make proclamations in the name of god to benefit Himself. Christ was martyred.

Mohammed did all of those things except being martyred. He killed and maimed many in his battles when robbing caravans to support his followers. He made war and assassinated people because they mocked him. He married the child of his best friend and married his adopted son’s wife after making them divorce when the son still loved his wife, and he married women captured in unjust battles. He allowed allah to say it was ok only for him to have more then the 4 wives prescribed to all Moslems. Mohammed demanded 20% of all booty captured in the unjust wars. He made women cover themselves because his friends were eyeing his wives during one of his weddings. Even his favorite wife, the child, said Mohammed made women like dogs. Mohammed said hell was full of women because by the nature of being a woman they were deficient in intelligence and religion. Mohammed was not a martyr. He did not die from poison 3 years earlier.

Christ said things that are relevant for all time. Mohammed said nothing much relevant even for his own time and certainly not for today. The two are worlds apart even on the most basic levels so Mohammed’s claim of being most like Jesus is just flat out ignorant.

There are manuscripts older then the Quran and yet Moslems continue to insist the earlier works have been distorted while the Koran is correct and that is just ignorant. Such a blind belief in God is unnatural but yet enforced and instituionalized by Islam. Christ has repeatedly told us to open our ears and eyes to See and Hear Him, and Islam says when you don’t understand or it conflicts with reason just say ‘allah knows best’ and continue being ignorant.

How could Mohammed and Islam be so perfect in preserving the words of allah since the 7th Century but the Jews and Christians who recorded the traditions and sayings have purposely altered them in defiance of God? So much points to Mohammed/Islam being false even if you reject Jesus/Catholics, but to accept Mohammed over Christ is nearly incomprehensible. How do you do it? Why?
 
God Himself:

Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Genesis 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Isaac’s promise was Israel:

Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Ishmael’s promise was Islam:

Quran 47:4 Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.

Why can’t Christians accept that Mohammed enforced God throughout Arabia, though with far less brutality, the same way Israel enforced God throughout Canaan, in order to obtain the blessing for Ishmael.
Jesus stated: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, and anyone who came after him claiming new revelations is a false prophet!

Why can’t you accept that Islam is a Big Lie, invented by Muhammad for his own personal gain, that his self serving “revelations” were invented by him through his alter ego “Allah” and that the Quran is a complete hoax!:rolleyes:

Vickie
 
Thanks.

(1) Can you elaborate on the above miracles by Mohammad? (2) What were their purposes, significance and relevance to prove his prophethood? (3)It would be good to quote from the Quran on where to find them.

(4)Do you have any criteria to ascertain that the revelations are form God? (5)In the case of the words in the Quran, what are the criteria for you to believe that they were from Allah? (6)Do you need any witness or evidence to confirm that Mohammad recieved the words from Allah? (7)How can you be sure the words are from Allah?

God bless.
  1. I could perhaps. Some other posters have, I think, but I wouldn’t. The only miracle worth really mentioning is the Qur’an. There were other miracles, I can only think of two which are mentioned in the Qur’an–but remember that the Qur’an is not a biography of Muhammad. It’s not a story of his life. Remember how I said that miracles which cannot be witnessed are just hearsay?
  2. The purpose of miracles, in general, is to prove that the Messenger is sent by God. The only reason Muslims believe in some miracles of other Prophets is that they are mentioned in the Qur’an. But for the people at that time, the miracle was a proof for them to trust the Messenger. Because Muhammad is a Messenger for all generations after him, the miracle must be able to be witnessed by all those generations.
  3. The two miracles I can think of which appear in the Qur’an are the splitting of the moon which is mentioned and the night journey to Jerusalem. They are both only mentioned and not described in detail… again, the Qur’an is not a biography of Muhammad and does not give the story of his life. I’m not so sure what’s going on with that photograph someone posted… I mean, it looks fake to me. Muslims believe in the splitting of the moon because it’s mentioned in the Qur’an, although it was a miracle witnessed by a select group of people. I didn’t see it. A doctored photo wouldn’t prove it to me. And I wish Muslims wouldn’t go around touting these things because they detract from the weight of the true message.
  4. By “revelations” do you mean the Qur’an? The Qur’an has a verse which says what means “If it (i.e., the Qur’an) had been from other than Allah, they would have found therin much discrepancy.” There’s another ayah which says that Allah will preserve it. So basically, if one believes that the Qur’an (any of it) is from Allah, then it follows that all of it is from Allah and it is preserved. It was written down and memorized during the lifetime of Muhammad, every single verse being transmitted multiple ways, along multiple chains. For other sayings of Muhammad there is a criteria for determining what is authentic and what isn’t. (What isn’t = what someone made up.)
  5. The words of the Qur’an are miraculous in many ways. One, miracles of the unseen, and three categories thereof: miracles of unseen past, unseen present, and unseen future. For example–how would Muhammad know about the birth of Mary? He wasn’t there, it wasn’t recorded… but God knew. There were also some predictions in the Qur’an which came true in the lifetime of Muhammad. There was one man who the Qur’an said would never be a Muslim–and in order to contradict the Qur’an, all that man had to do was just say he was Muslim, but he never did. The victors of some wars were predicted as well.
6 and 7. The Qur’an is itself the miracle, it is the evidence.
 
Jesus stated: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, and anyone who came after him claiming new revelations is a false prophet!

Why can’t you accept that Islam is a Big Lie, invented by Muhammad for his own personal gain, that his self serving “revelations” were invented by him through his alter ego “Allah” and that the Quran is a complete hoax!
Why can’t YOU accept that Islam is truth?
  1. Invented by Muhammad for his own personal gain? False claim. If Muhammad wanted personal gain, then why, when the Quraish offered him rule over the entire city of Mecca, did he refuse because he would have to disobey God, and worship idols?
  2. A number of revelations actually instruct Muhammad that he was doing something wrong–how is that self-serving?
  3. If the Qur’an were a complete hoax:
    a. How did Muhammad know the stories of Mary? Of Abraham? Of Joseph? Of Shu’aib? Etc. Many of these stories are actually not in the Bible. Moreover, some of them appear in the Bible but the Qur’an provides the corrected versions.
    b. How did Muhammad know that Abu Lahab would never embrace Islam?
    c. How did Muhammad know that Rome would defeat Persia?
    d. How can you explain how Muhammad could precisely describe Jerusalem after his night journey though he had never been there before?
 
Here is a thought.

This thread is about Mary in Islam. What the Qur’an says about Mary.

Why are some posters so determined to derail it to attack Muhammad?

Are you afraid of confronting the real topic?
 
Muhammad performed no miracles! When the unbelievers asked him to perform one, he stated he was only a warner and that the Quran was his only miracle, and as for his being chosen by God, you only have his word for that!
Is someone threatening you?

Like I said, the Qur’an is the proof. YOU, for example, don’t believe the Qur’an. That’s fine. Neither did the idol worshippers.

But over 1.5 billion people in the world DO believe it, and they believe it proves itself. 1.5 billion people.

But you can calm down… the idol worshippers didn’t accept Muhammad either. You’re not alone. 👍
 
Jesus stated: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, and anyone who came after him claiming new revelations is a false prophet!

Why can’t you accept that Islam is a Big Lie, invented by Muhammad for his own personal gain, that his self serving “revelations” were invented by him through his alter ego “Allah” and that the Quran is a complete hoax!:rolleyes:

Vickie
Jesus said anyone who came claiming he is Christ is a False Prophet, the Quran only confirms that Jesus is Messiah.

Quran 3:45 (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

Next we have confusion over Alpha and Omega, and what means what in relation to whom since we don’t know who exactly is talking at any given time, the Revelation came from God, to Jesus, to the angel of Jesus, to John:

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him (JESUS), to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Here is John saying that HE is Alpha and Omega and God? Or is John saying a quote from God?

Revelation 1:8-9 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And here this is a servant of God talking for God, not God Himself:

Revelation 22:8-9 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Revelation 22:10-13 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

So it appears the servant is saying a quote from God, not that he is God. So it can’t be said Jesus clearly stated that he is Alpha and Omega and also God.
 
Is someone threatening you?

Like I said, the Qur’an is the proof. YOU, for example, don’t believe the Qur’an. That’s fine. Neither did the idol worshippers.

But over 1.5 billion people in the world DO believe it, and they believe it proves itself. 1.5 billion people.

But you can calm down… the idol worshippers didn’t accept Muhammad either. You’re not alone. 👍
The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it! What is true is true, even if no one believes it, but a lie does not become true even if 1.5 billion people believe it! 😃

Vickie
 
The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it! What is true is true, even if no one believes it, but a lie does not become true even if 1.5 billion people believe it! 😃

Vickie
You can keep repeating your lie (i.e,. that the Qur’an is a hoax) but repetition doesn’t make it true.

I always found Catholics to be kind and tolerant of other faiths even if they didn’t agree. There’s a banner at the top of the page saying “How to become a Catholic,” and yet posters like you turning an entire religion into a farce. Bravo.
 
Here is a thought.

This thread is about Mary in Islam. What the Qur’an says about Mary.

Why are some posters so determined to derail it to attack Muhammad?

Are you afraid of confronting the real topic?
Because the short answer was given. Anything in the Koran similar to the NT regarding Mary is irellevant. Where they differ is significant and why the differ is from Mohammed and the spirit that gave him information.

Why are Islamic apologists so determined to not answer questions about Mohammed? I fear nothing about Islam, and the real tooic is Mohammed since everything you quote is from him whether it is about Mary, or miracles or anything else. If the messenger cannot be trusted why should the messege be?
 
They say Mohammed descended from Ishmael which would also make him a Hebrew descended from Ever.
Then you should tell the Arabs not to be so anti-semetic. They then will inform all the other Moslems to stop trying to drive them into the sea and call them apes, pigs and dogs.
 
Because the short answer was given. Anything in the Koran similar to the NT regarding Mary is irellevant. Where they differ is significant and why the differ is from Mohammed and the spirit that gave him information.

Why are Islamic apologists so determined to not answer questions about Mohammed? I fear nothing about Islam, and the real tooic is Mohammed since everything you quote is from him whether it is about Mary, or miracles or anything else. If the messenger cannot be trusted why should the messege be?
Apologist? Where’s your label maker? I want one…

Anyway, I don’t mind answering questions about Muhammad. Did you actually ask any? Or are you just determined to shove your opinions down everyone’s throats as truth? 😉

You say it’s irrelevant but in fact, the passage I quoted originally about Mary is very relevant, offering a story that is not even told in Christianity’s holy texts. You, for one, assume that Muhammad made it up. But what proof do you have? Did Muhammad also make up the story about Joseph going to prison and reading dreams to get out of prison? Did he make that one up too?
 
  1. If the Qur’an were a complete hoax:
    a. How did Muhammad know the stories of Mary? Of Abraham? Of Joseph? Of Shu’aib? Etc. Many of these stories are actually not in the Bible. Moreover, some of them appear in the Bible but the Qur’an provides the corrected versions.
It is obvious the illiterate Mohammed didn’t know the stories which is why the Jews mocked him for being ignorant of what he could not read for himself. It is why he assassinated those who mocked him becasue he was a brute.
b. How did Muhammad know that Abu Lahab would never embrace Islam?
Because some people have integrity. Something Mohammed was unfamiliar with.
c. How did Muhammad know that Rome would defeat Persia?
It is easy to predict what happened in the past.
d. How can you explain how Muhammad could precisely describe Jerusalem after his night journey though he had never been there before?
He described it to people who also had never been so they would not know the difference, and even though I have never been to Yankee Stadium I could describe it from listening to those who had been there.
 
Then you should tell the Arabs not to be so anti-semetic. They then will inform all the other Moslems to stop trying to drive them into the sea and call them apes, pigs and dogs.
Anti-semitic, you mean? Arabs are semitic.

Muslims abhor injustice in all forms. Oppression, terrorism, and even derogatory insults.
 
Anyway, I don’t mind answering questions about Muhammad. Did you actually ask any? Or are you just determined to shove your opinions down everyone’s throats as truth? 😉
Refute anything I stated about Mohammed.
Deny he married his best friends child.
Deny he married his adopted sons wife.
Deny he assassinated people who mocked him.
Deny he was afraid of the vision or the spirit did not identify itself and his wifes uncle did.
Deny he robbed caravans to feed his followers.
Deny how the verse for the hijab came about or that he got 20% of all booty, and that he could marry more women than otehr Moslems?

I think you do mind answering questions about him.
You say it’s irrelevant but in fact, the passage I quoted originally about Mary is very relevant, offering a story that is not even told in Christianity’s holy texts. You, for one, assume that Muhammad made it up. But what proof do you have? Did Muhammad also make up the story about Joseph going to prison and reading dreams to get out of prison? Did he make that one up too?
You do not listen or read very well. I did not say Mohammed made it all up. I think the demon spirit was Satan that spoke to Mohammed at Hira. Mohammed made up enough of the Koran, but not all of it.
 
It is obvious the illiterate Mohammed didn’t know the stories which is why the Jews mocked him for being ignorant of what he could not read for himself. It is why he assassinated those who mocked him becasue he was a brute.
He didn’t know the stories? Ignorant? Couldn’t read for himself? Some of the stories are the same, and some are different. Where did he learn them? Why change some parts and not others? You aren’t explaining, you’re trying to avoid the discussion with insults.
Because some people have integrity. Something Mohammed was unfamiliar with.
LOL. You don’t know anything about Abu Lahab. All he had to do was declare he was a Muslim–even if he was lying–and he would have proved, one and for all, that the Qur’an was wrong. Never did.
t is easy to predict what happened in the past.
The Roman Empire, as perhaps you are not aware, had just been defeated by the Byzantines prior to the revelation of the relevant passage. Romans had just been defeated, but the Qur’an says they will be victorious. Within a few years! And at the time there wasn’t even a remote chance that either the Romans or the Muslims will be victorious–and the Qur’an says they both will be.
He described it to people who also had never been so they would not know the difference, and even though I have never been to Yankee Stadium I could describe it from listening to those who had been there.
In fact, you’re wrong again. He only described it to someone who HAD been there, to prove the accuracy.
 
Anti-semitic, you mean? Arabs are semitic.

Muslims abhor injustice in all forms. Oppression, terrorism, and even derogatory insults.
How can you actually believe that, when Muslims always resort to violence or threats when “offended”?

Vickie
 
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