MARY is She necessary or optional?

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corrinnalynn said:
I am searching out the truth here. I am not Catholic but want truth so Im asking Caytholics and hoping for honest answers. Is it true that Pope Pius X saod salvation came through Mary? If so does anyone know where I can find this document and where in scripture it is found? 🙂
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I’ll look…there is some sort of statement like that…but I’ve always taken it as “her Yes enabled the Incarnation…He literally passed through Mary…He came into the world through Mary, in almost the same way that I came into the world through my Mom. Her cooperation is thus unique in all the history of salvation.”
 
corrinnalynn said:
I am searching out the truth here. I am not Catholic but want truth so Im asking Caytholics and hoping for honest answers. Is it true that Pope Pius X saod salvation came through Mary? If so does anyone know where I can find this document and where in scripture it is found? 🙂
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What’s there to question about this? If you accept that salvation comes from Jesus Christ (something Catholics and Protestants agree on), then surely there’s nothing controversial in saying that Jesus Christ came into the world through Mary. Therefore, salvation (Jesus Christ), came through Mary.

I don’t know whether Pius X specifically stated this, but I should think it is something self-evident that any Christian might say.
 
Returning to corrinnalynn’s question:
corrinnalynn said:
Is it true that Pope Pius X saod salvation came through Mary?
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If you’re exploring Catholicism I wouldn’t necessarily recommend you start with Mary. Mary is a difficult topic to delve into, and her role in salvation is continually discussed, with many of the laity pushing for declaration of the so-called Fifth Marian Dogma, and other parts of the laity either against it or apathetic.

I think you and we can agree that salvation came “through” Mary in the sense of her role in the Incarnation, her “yes” so to speak. What would have happened if Mary had said “no” - would Jesus have been born of another, would God have refused to save humanity, or was Mary incapable of saying “no” - is another matter that theologians debate.

So that’s one form of cooperation. The form of Mary’s cooperation that Pius X refers to is another, namely that Mary’s ongoing intercession in the life of every believer is necessary for salvation. The document you’re probably referring to is an encyclical, AD DIEM ILLUM LAETISSIMUM, which literally means “on this aboundingly joyful day”, issued 2/2/1904 with remarks on the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

This document can be found here:
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html

The exact passage might be in paragraph 15. Remember this is a liturgical document, written in Latin and translated to English, and it’s a dense read:
15. These principles laid down, and to return to our design, who will not see that we have with good reason claimed for Mary that - as the constant companion of Jesus from the house at Nazareth to the height of Calvary, as beyond all others initiated to the secrets of his Heart, and as the distributor, by right of her Motherhood, of the treasures of His merits, - she is, for all these reasons, a most sure and efficacious assistance to us for arriving at the knowledge and love of Jesus Christ. Those, alas! furnish us by their conduct with a peremptory proof of it, who seduced by the wiles of the demon or deceived by false doctrines think they can do without the help of the Virgin. Hapless are they who neglect Mary under pretext of the honor to be paid to Jesus Christ! As if the Child could be found elsewhere than with the Mother!

Pope Piux X’s rationale is:
  • Mary is entrusted by God with distributing all Graces, those necessary for salvation and those that sustain and bless us
  • Mary’s will is entirely conformed to the Will of God so that she doesn’t play a “trump card” so to speak and refuse entry to Heaven to any whom Christ would welcome, nor can she admit any whom Christ opposes
  • Thus prayer to Mary is necessary to obtain the graces one needs to be saved
It’s a difficult logic to follow and this probably isn’t the best document to explain it. I should note that in my three decades of being Catholic I’ve never heard a homily on this topic, and it’s not taught in the Catechism. Much of the Marian literature is like this, it’s difficult to understand and not commonly passed along in RCIA (religious instruction for adults), CCD /PSR (religious instruction for kids). You won’t find it unless you’re looking for it.

I think you’d be more comfortable exploring something like lectio divina, which is a devotion to the Word by daily reading of and prayer on Scripture.
 
losh14 said:
Returning to corrinnalynn’s question:

If you’re exploring Catholicism I wouldn’t necessarily recommend you start with Mary. Mary is a difficult topic to delve into, and her role in salvation is continually discussed, with many of the laity pushing for declaration of the so-called Fifth Marian Dogma, and other parts of the laity either against it or apathetic.

I think you and we can agree that salvation came “through” Mary in the sense of her role in the Incarnation, her “yes” so to speak. What would have happened if Mary had said “no” - would Jesus have been born of another, would God have refused to save humanity, or was Mary incapable of saying “no” - is another matter that theologians debate.

So that’s one form of cooperation. The form of Mary’s cooperation that Pius X refers to is another, namely that Mary’s ongoing intercession in the life of every believer is necessary for salvation. The document you’re probably referring to is an encyclical, AD DIEM ILLUM LAETISSIMUM, which literally means “on this aboundingly joyful day”, issued 2/2/1904 with remarks on the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

This document can be found here:
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html

The exact passage might be in paragraph 15. Remember this is a liturgical document, written in Latin and translated to English, and it’s a dense read:
15. These principles laid down, and to return to our design, who will not see that we have with good reason claimed for Mary that - as the constant companion of Jesus from the house at Nazareth to the height of Calvary, as beyond all others initiated to the secrets of his Heart, and as the distributor, by right of her Motherhood, of the treasures of His merits, - she is, for all these reasons, a most sure and efficacious assistance to us for arriving at the knowledge and love of Jesus Christ. Those, alas! furnish us by their conduct with a peremptory proof of it, who seduced by the wiles of the demon or deceived by false doctrines think they can do without the help of the Virgin. Hapless are they who neglect Mary under pretext of the honor to be paid to Jesus Christ! As if the Child could be found elsewhere than with the Mother!

Pope Piux X’s rationale is:
  • Mary is entrusted by God with distributing all Graces, those necessary for salvation and those that sustain and bless us
  • Mary’s will is entirely conformed to the Will of God so that she doesn’t play a “trump card” so to speak and refuse entry to Heaven to any whom Christ would welcome, nor can she admit any whom Christ opposes
  • Thus prayer to Mary is necessary to obtain the graces one needs to be saved
It’s a difficult logic to follow and this probably isn’t the best document to explain it. I should note that in my three decades of being Catholic I’ve never heard a homily on this topic, and it’s not taught in the Catechism. Much of the Marian literature is like this, it’s difficult to understand and not commonly passed along in RCIA (religious instruction for adults), CCD /PSR (religious instruction for kids). You won’t find it unless you’re looking for it.

I think you’d be more comfortable exploring something like lectio divina, which is a devotion to the Word by daily reading of and prayer on Scripture.
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I like your post, it was well explained.

Marian devotion dosen’t have a big handle. It is more of an understanding with Jesus and Mary of how Jesus wants to do it. It’s like an underground river, it’s strong and there, but can’t be seen, only known. That’s why it is difficult to explain in a way that is understood.
It is like two friends. Its magic, they don’t have to say anything to enjoy each other, but when they do, they are on the same frequency.

Those that have this understanding don’t know why others can’t see the same thing. And others cannot understand what they just said and why. Its like president Kennedy. He was loved or hated.

Like a cold, you either catch it or you don’t.

I believe it dosen’t serve any good purpose to try to go over and over with it. And it seems the same with suffering, some get it and some don’t. And more words seem to add to the confusion.

I think we need to pray for one another and try to understand.

Thanks again for that nice post.
 
De_Montfort, this is one of the things I appreciate most about being Catholic. We can all have our favorite devotions yet all be faithful Catholics. As (name removed by moderator) mentioned in his post and provided a link from CA about this, we don’t each have to have a special devotion to Mary … and that’s okay. I don’t have any special devotion to the Blessed Mother, but I acknowledge the Church’s teachings about her and about her role. I cannot, however, pray to her, pray the rosary, or have the kind of devotion to her that you do. I love my earthly mother, but I don’t call her every day. The fact that I call her every other month does not mean I love her any less than you do if you call your mother every day.

JRKH provided the analogy of a buffet and everyone having different appetites, tastes, etc. My analogy is more like reading. I like to read, and I read every day. I prefer fiction to non-fiction. I can read non-fiction, but most of it is dry and boring to me like reading chemistry. On the other hand, I have been known to breeze through a good mystery novel in less than a day. I’ve been known to re-read my favorite books. I could read a chemistry book - I have the skills to read and comprehend it - but it would take time away from what I love most to read. My user name reveals my devotion - the Sacred Heart of Jesus. I could spend time in praying the rosary every day or whatever I would need to do if I had a special devotion to Mary, but that would take time away from my devotion to the Sacred Heart.
 
I feel like we’re coming to a closing point. Would we agree that (and please feel free to chime in):

Mary is necessary as far as:
  • God made her part of the plan of salvation
  • Mary is a model of faith and obedience
  • Mary is an example of what God does in us, not what we do for ourselves
  • We affirm that Christ chose to enter the world through Mary (without stating anything about whether he’d have chosen elsewise if Mary had said no, or if Mary had the freedom to say no)
Mary is optional as far as:
  • Personal devotion to Mary, in whatever form, is elective
  • Personal devotion may be a calling, and if divinely-spoken should be responded to affirmatively
  • If Mary is a door to Christ, the door remains open unless Christ Himself closes it. It is not within Mary’s power, authority, or will to deny salvation to a sinner whom Christ would save
  • Mary is worthy of imitation, but as a holy life is given by Grace, she is not the sole model for imitation
 
losh14 said:
. . . We affirm that Christ chose to enter the world through Mary (without stating anything about whether he’d have chosen elsewise if Mary had said no, or if Mary had the freedom to say no)
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A while back I’d recommended to you Garrigou-Lagrange’s The Mother of the Saviour and Our Interior Life; Father G-L addresses the above. To quote in part:
“Pius IX affirmed [Mary’s predistination to the divine maternity preceded her predistination to the fulness of glory and grace] in effect in Ineffabilis Deus, by which he defined the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, when he said that God the Father predestined Jesus to natural divine sonship - so superior to adoptive sonship - and Mary to be the Mother of God, in one and the same divine decree. The eternal predestination of Jesus included not only the Incarnation itself as object but also all the circumstances of time and place in which it would be realised, and especially the one expressed in the Nicene Creed in the words 'Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine.’ By the same eternal decress, therefore, Jesus was predestined to be Son of the Most High and Mary to be the Mother of God.”
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I again suggest the entirety of the book to you so you may have a better grasp of the fulness of Marian doctrine.
Mary is worthy of imitation, but as a holy life is given by Grace, she is not the sole model for imitation
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She is not the sole model, but as the most holy human who has lived or will ever live she is the model par excellence for following her Son.
 
corrinnalynn said:
I am searching out the truth here. I am not Catholic but want truth so Im asking Caytholics and hoping for honest answers. Is it true that Pope Pius X saod salvation came through Mary? If so does anyone know where I can find this document and where in scripture it is found? 🙂
Click to expand...
Luke chapter 1. In that chapter, the angel Gabriel tells Mary that she will bring forth Christ the Lord, and that Christ’s Kingdom will have no end. But it’s not like God was going to twist Mary’s arm or force her. So Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaiden of the Lord. Let it done unto me according to your word.”

Therefore, because Mary said “yes” to God, Christ entered the world through her, as had been prophesied throughout the Old Testament. Christ is the source of our salvation. Therefore, through Mary, salvation (in Christ) came into the world.

We owe her a great debt of gratitude for saying “yes” to God. Because she said yes, our salvation in Christ came into the world through her.

There are more ways still, in addition to this explicit scriptural event, by which Mary has brought salvation in the person of Christ to us. Yet these are less explicit in the Bible itself.

Yet one thing that’s important to remember is that the Bible itself says that there are teachings of Christianity that need to be accepted IN ADDITION to what is written in the Bible. The Apostle Paul writes in 2 Thess. 2:15, “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.” There are several other passages similar to this. So if you want the complete message of Jesus Christ, look not only to the Bible but also at the Christian faith as the Early Christians taught and believed it.

They, having lived in the time of Christ or His apostles, or very near it, themselves, knew exactly how the Bible was originally interpreted, and that was what they lived and died for. Not all the words of Christ, or all the true explanations of His teachings, are found in the Bible, and nowhere in the Bible does it say that a Bible should be seen as the only authority of truth (though it is certainly ONE completely true authority). The teaching authority of the Church, the bishops ruling it through the Holy Spirit, in union with the Pope, is another such final authority, as is the oral tradition that has been passed on from the beginning of Christianity to this day. That is an immense blessing from God, because if the Bible was the one and only final authority, then no one would know what is true for sure, because people interpret the Bible in VERY different ways from each other.
 
Padre Pio said: “Some people are so foolish that they think they can go through life without the help of the Blessed Mother.”

“When one achnowledges the importance of the Blessed Mother in Her Immaculate Conception, it is the first step on the path of salvation.”

“Love the Madonna and pray the rosary, for her Rosary is the weapon against the evils of the world today.”

“All graces given by God pass through the Blessed Mother.”

padrepio.com/app18.html

I certainly believe that we will realize the necessity of our advocate, and mother Mary when we do grow spiritually and know that through her prayers we can receive many graces. Those in Purgatory right now especially have realized that Mother Mary provides a refreshing and peace for them. Our Mother has certainly helped me in my battles spiritually, and I continue to keep her with me wherever I go.
 
Not a day goes by without my having thoughts of the Blessed Virgin. I love the “Memorare” and recite it daily following the Rosary.
 
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