Mary, mediatrix of all graces

[godisgood77]

Again, well said James.

For Tim, I do not believe that anyone is denying that Mary is a mediatrix of grace. People are making that point that they do not believe that all grace comes through Mary. This concept is alien to many of us and after conducting research it is clear that the questions valid. The Church clearly teaches that the Mary is given the title and function of mediatrix.

What about the grace that flows naturally from the sacraments?

If we are going to use the argument that God chose to act through Mary as justification for the idea that all grace flows through Mary, what do we say about Joseph? Surely if Joseph had not cooperated with the divine plan of his own free will, Mary would have been killed and Jesus would not have come to us in this way, correct? So should we be talking about Joseph as the conduit? I’m only putting that idea forward to illustrate the problem with making that argument…

Mary and all of the saints are able to intercede on our behalf. In fact all Catholics are called to intercede for each other. I try to pray with Mary to God each day and I benefit tremendously spiritually. Believing that God distributes graces in multiple ways in no way diminishes Mary’s role in salvation.

This past week, my Pastor actually told the congregation that we can not pray to God, but instead have to use a mediator. I along with many others were shocked…

 

[dronald]

Maybe explaining these terms will help my brain a little. First, “Mediatrix.” Are Catholics saying that Mary is a Mediatrix in the same way any female Saint is a Mediatrix, or even any woman who prays for us?

Secondly, no one addressed my post in a different thread so i’m going to copy and paste it here:

*Perhaps explaining the meaning of, “Revere” would help someone like myself.

I thank God for the friend who helped me come to Christ, and he thanks God and the work of the Holy Spirit for the same. Neither of us believe it was truly our doing.

My pastor sent me a book that is helping my Faith and I thank God for that, but I certainly give my pastor a thank you. I could thank God for Mary and sure, even thank Mary myself if I believed possible. What more can one ask then our complete thanks to God? What more should I do*

 

[TimothyH]

Fair enough -

However - -

For me - the idea of Mary being the mediatrix pf all graces is an unnecessary complication to an otherwise simple plan of salvation.

In the past I’ve expressed it like this.
Grace comes from God - now if God chooses that all grace comes through Mary - that is fine with me. But I don’t need to ask Mary for the grace…I can and should ask God. That is how Jesus taught us to pray.

It’s like ordering a product from a company on the internet. The company may choose to send ALL of their packages via UPS, or they might use Fed-X exclusively. That fact may be important to them - but not to me. I don’t contact UPS to ask for my package, I contact the company and THEY decide how to get it to me.

As far as I am concerned the same is true with graces. The are from God and we receive them from God. How God chooses to get them here is His business.

Different strokes for different folks…

Peace
James

All parts of God’s plan are necessary. God’s plan is the most perfect plan and the most beautiful plan. If there were a more perfect or more beautiful plan then God would have given it to us. None of it is optional.

And God makes his plan as simple or as complex as he wishes. We neither complicate it nor simplify it by anything we do or think - we only distort its perfection and beauty by rejecting it or reflect its perfection or beauty by accepting it.

And the plan is this… That Mary obtains for us from her Son’s treasury the graces which he won for us on the cross.

Never before has anyone been given this great privilege, to initiate an action of God. Mary tells her Son that the wedding guests have no wine and Jesus protests, does not want to perform a public miracle, does not want to start his public ministry. Mary simply ignores him and tells the servants to do whatever he tells them. And the Second Person of the Trinity performs the miracle and tells them to draw the wine out of the jars. Mary is given the great privilege of initiating the chain of events that would lead to the redemption of mankind.

Mary was given to the “Disciple whom Jesus loved” as a mother. You and I are that disciple, the one whom Jesus loves, and Mary is our mother. Why would we not go to Mary, our mother, who was given to us by Jesus himself? Jesus himself gave Mary to us as a Mother. It was his will and his plan, and his plan is the most beautiful and perfect plan. We have only to accept it and to place ourselves confidently in Mary’s hands saying, “Mother, I have no wine.”

St. Augustin wrote this in the late 4th century…

***…obtain by thy prayers the remission of our offenses. Carry thou our prayers within the sanctuary of the heavenly audience, and bring forth from it the antidote of our reconciliation. May the sins we bring before Almighty God through thee, become pardonable through thee; may what we ask for with sure confidence, through thee be granted. Take our offering, grant us our requests, obtain pardon for what we fear, for thou art the sole hope of sinners. Through thee we hope for the remission of our sins, and in thee, O blessed Lady, is our hope of reward. ***

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote about God preferring to work through people and matter and “Titles”. This is an excerpt from the EWTN article on Mary Mediatrix of Grace.

***Further, the principle of St. Thomas helps here. In Summa Theologiae I. 19. 5. c., Thomas says that it pleases God to have one thing in place to serve as a title or reason for granting something further, even though that title does not move Him. It is His love of all goodness and good order that leads Him to act this way. Hence too, even though Calvary earned infinite forgiveness and graces, the Father wills to provide titles for giving out these, in the Mass. Even though He did not need even our Lady, yet He willed to employ her. Even though there is no need of any other saints, in objective or subjective redemption, yet He wills to add them–all to make everything, every title, as rich as possible. ***

Mary’s title is second only to Jesus’ title. We just celebrated the Feast of Jesus Christ, King of the Universe. Mary’s title is Queen of Heaven and Earth.

It’s God’s will. It is how he chose to set things up. It is his perfect plan. Nothing is more culturally, theologically or organically Catholic.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Again, well said James.

For Tim, I do not believe that anyone is denying that Mary is a mediatrix of grace. People are making that point that they do not believe that all grace comes through Mary. This concept is alien to many of us and after conducting research it is clear that the questions valid. The Church clearly teaches that the Mary is given the title and function of mediatrix.

What about the grace that flows naturally from the sacraments?

If we are going to use the argument that God chose to act through Mary as justification for the idea that all grace flows through Mary, what do we say about Joseph? Surely if Joseph had not cooperated with the divine plan of his own free will, Mary would have been killed and Jesus would not have come to us in this way, correct? So should we be talking about Joseph as the conduit? I’m only putting that idea forward to illustrate the problem with making that argument…

Mary and all of the saints are able to intercede on our behalf. In fact all Catholics are called to intercede for each other. I try to pray with Mary to God each day and I benefit tremendously spiritually. Believing that God distributes graces in multiple ways in no way diminishes Mary’s role in salvation.

This past week, my Pastor actually told the congregation that we can not pray to God, but instead have to use a mediator. I along with many others were shocked…

Joseph was going to divorce Mary until the angel of God intervened and commanded him not to.

When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, (Matthew 1:24)

Understand that he was doing no wrong. He was righteously obeying the Law of Moses which was of divine origin. But Joseph’s will was not as conformed to God’s will as was Mary’s.

Mary alone was full of Grace. Mary alone was given to “The disciple whom Jesus loved” as a Mother.

-Tim-

 

[JRKH]

All parts of God’s plan are necessary. God’s plan is the most perfect plan and the most beautiful plan. If there were a more perfect or more beautiful plan then God would have given it to us. None of it is optional.

I quite agree that all of God’s plan is necessary - but our understanding it is not…

And God makes his plan as simple or as complex as he wishes. We neither complicate it nor simplify it by anything we do or think - we only distort its perfection and beauty by rejecting it or reflect its perfection or beauty by accepting it.

We distort nothing by simply ignoring a given portion of the plan - especially where our understanding of that portion has no direct bearing on our salvation.

To refer to my analogy - my not understanding how the shipping system works has no effect on my receiving a package.

Note in this that it is not a rejection of God’s plan, a slight against our blessed mother, or a denial of any part of Catholic teaching. It is just simply keeping things simple.

Peace
James

 

[TimothyH]

I quite agree that all of God’s plan is necessary - but our understanding it is not…

We distort nothing by simply ignoring a given portion of the plan - especially where our understanding of that portion has no direct bearing on our salvation.

To refer to my analogy - my not understanding how the shipping system works has no effect on my receiving a package.

Note in this that it is not a rejection of God’s plan, a slight against our blessed mother, or a denial of any part of Catholic teaching. It is just simply keeping things simple.

Peace
James

Mary is not a shipping system.

The Theotokos is a living, breathing member of Christ’s body, the Mother of God, with a will and mind and feelings and intellect of her own. She is a person.

It is as if the Executive Vice President of the company from which we ordered the product received our order, processed it herself, hand packaged it and personally delivered it to our front door.

Jesus made the medicine and wrote the perscription. The nurse brings it to us and injects it into us with a syringe. Mary is the nurse, not the syringe. Mary is not a delivery truck. Mary is not a robot or a parrot or a pipe.

Why not simplify everything? Confession… go straight to God and not through a priest. Salvation… just believe in Jesus and go to heaven, no need for a Church. Why is removal of Mary acceptable simplification and the others are not?

I like you JRKH. You are one of my favorite posers here on CAF, but if you want simple theology then go to the Evangelicals. I can give you a referral to any number of wonderful Churches where things are simple.

-Tim-

 

[godisgood77]

Mary is not a shipping system.

The Theotokos is a living, breathing member of Christ’s body, the Mother of God, with a will and mind and feelings and intellect of her own. She is a person.

It is as if the Executive Vice President of the company from which we ordered the product received our order, processed it herself, hand packaged it and personally delivered it to our front door.

Jesus made the medicine and wrote the perscription. The nurse brings it to us and injects it into us with a syringe. Mary is the nurse, not the syringe.

Mary is not a delivery truck. Mary is not a robot or a parrot or a pipe.

-Tim-

James’ analogy is a good one. It is an analogy afterall. There is no need to argue the point further… As It was made well and hasn’t been refuted. When emotions take over the arguments often times become irrational and that is a natural stopping point.

 

[dronald]

The analogy is a good one. It is an analogy afterall. There is no need to sure the point further… When emotions take over the arguments often times become irrational.

As an interested observer with some inquiries of my own, I find the lacking of understanding of Mary’s role within the Church odd.

Shouldn’t Mary’s role be a unified belief as it’s an important one within the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Thank you for all the replies so far.

So far, JRKH has my concerns most accurately defined: it is not that I do not believe that Mary is the Mediatrix of all Graces in that God chose to enter the world through her, and chooses to distribute grace through her, and that she is the surest and easiest way of coming to know Jesus.

Rather, I have an issue with the quote from the OP, that “The Holy Spirit does not act except through the Immaculata, His spouse. Hence, she is the Mediatrix of all the graces of the Holy Spirit.”

It seems to me a rather bold statement, the implications of which are that the Holy Spirit, the infinite God, Third Person of the Holy Trinity, doesn’t act except through a finite creature. I believe that the Holy Spirit does give grace through Mary, but to say He completely restricts His movements to being through Mary is foreign to me.

Thank you so much for all of your replies so far. I will continue to ponder this, and will obviously remain obedient to the teachings of the Magisterium. I am not seeking to oppose Church doctrine, FYI, only to understand where in Tradition this is seen.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

As an interested observer with some inquiries of my own, I find the lacking of understanding of Mary’s role within the Church odd.

Shouldn’t Mary’s role be a unified belief as it’s an important one within the Roman Catholic Church?

It is, as far as it concerns the Marian dogmas and her powerful intercession and aid on behalf of all believers. It is merely intricacies that are being discussed, and ultimately have no real impact on the end effect: that Mary leads us closer to her Son than any other creature possibly can.

 

[TimothyH]

James’ analogy is a good one. It is an analogy afterall. There is no need to argue the point further… As It was made well and hasn’t been refuted. When emotions take over the arguments often times become irrational and that is a natural stopping point.

I am not emotional. I am sitting at my desk calmly sipping a cup of Teavana tea after a nice day of shopping (bought a sweet looking leather coat for my girlfriend), discussing the theology of Mary with my friend James. James and I have discussed these things before.

I’m a little tired but I think my posts are lucid and well thought out, with references, certainly not irrational.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Thank you for all the replies so far.

So far, JRKH has my concerns most accurately defined: it is not that I do not believe that Mary is the Mediatrix of all Graces in that God chose to enter the world through her, and chooses to distribute grace through her, and that she is the surest and easiest way of coming to know Jesus.

Rather, I have an issue with the quote from the OP, that “The Holy Spirit does not act except through the Immaculata, His spouse. Hence, she is the Mediatrix of all the graces of the Holy Spirit.”

It seems to me a rather bold statement, the implications of which are that the Holy Spirit, the infinite God, Third Person of the Holy Trinity, doesn’t act except through a finite creature. I believe that the Holy Spirit does give grace through Mary, but to say He completely restricts His movements to being through Mary is foreign to me.

Thank you so much for all of your replies so far. I will continue to ponder this, and will obviously remain obedient to the teachings of the Magisterium. I am not seeking to oppose Church doctrine, FYI, only to understand where in Tradition this is seen.

Again, I got into the discussion because of the expression of concern about the quote, that the Holy Spirit acts only through the Mary Immaculate. This should not be a concern at all. No follower of Christ should shy away from God’s plan for our salvation.

It should concern Christians that the Third Person of the Trinity chooses to act through Mary no more than they are concerned that the Second Person of the Trinity chose to be obedient to Mary. Jesus chose to become humble, the lowest of all, a slave, completely obedient even to death - this concerns no one. On the contrary, we rejoice in it.

It is Gods sovereign choice that these things are so. He wills that it be so. We should rejoice in it and celebrate it. There is no cause for concern.

-Tim-

 

[JRKH]

Mary is not a shipping system.

The Theotokos is a living, breathing member of Christ’s body, the Mother of God, with a will and mind and feelings and intellect of her own. She is a person.

It is as if the Executive Vice President of the company from which we ordered the product received our order, processed it herself, hand packaged it and personally delivered it to our front door.

Jesus made the medicine and wrote the perscription. The nurse brings it to us and injects it into us with a syringe. Mary is the nurse, not the syringe. Mary is not a delivery truck. Mary is not a robot or a parrot or a pipe.

I like your analogies too.

Why not simplify everything? Confession… go straight to God and not through a priest. Salvation… just believe in Jesus and go to heaven, no need for a Church. Why is removal of Mary acceptable simplification and the others are not?

Why do you think I wish to remove Mary? What an odd assumption.

I like you JRKH. You are one of my favorite posers here on CAF, but if you want simple theology then go to the Evangelicals. I can give you a referral to any number of wonderful Churches where things are simple.

No need Tim, things can be kept quite simple enough right here in the Catholic Church.
Praise God

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

As an interested observer with some inquiries of my own, I find the lacking of understanding of Mary’s role within the Church odd.

Shouldn’t Mary’s role be a unified belief as it’s an important one within the Roman Catholic Church?

Actually Mary’s role IS a unified teaching and can be found ably spelled out in the various Church documents. Lumen Gentium being especially useful.

What can become confusing sometimes are practices and such that develop through various pious private devotions. These are, in many cases, very good devotions but unless properly understood there can be some confusion due to the terminology etc.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Not really sure if I can be of much help here but I’ll give it a shot.

Maybe explaining these terms will help my brain a little. First, “Mediatrix.” Are Catholics saying that Mary is a Mediatrix in the same way any female Saint is a Mediatrix, or even any woman who prays for us?

Well - yes and no - certainly Mary can intercede for us and because of her place as the mother of our King, she is held to have special influence.
That said - as I understand the term Mediatrix (or mediator) it is more like a “channel” through which something flows - in this case grace. The grace does not originate in her but she channels it as directed by the wishes of God (which are her own wishes as well).

Secondly, no one addressed my post in a different thread so i’m going to copy and paste it here:

*Perhaps explaining the meaning of, “Revere” would help someone like myself.

I thank God for the friend who helped me come to Christ, and he thanks God and the work of the Holy Spirit for the same. Neither of us believe it was truly our doing.

My pastor sent me a book that is helping my Faith and I thank God for that, but I certainly give my pastor a thank you. I could thank God for Mary and sure, even thank Mary myself if I believed possible. What more can one ask then our complete thanks to God? What more should I do*

I would say that you are doing just fine.

As to the word “revere”…well have you considered the various words that stem from the same root? Reverence is something we grant to another…ministers are sometimes called “reverend” and there is that root “rever” again.
Revere indicates great respect and even filial love.

Does that help?

Peace
James

 

[TimothyH]

It is, as far as it concerns the Marian dogmas and her powerful intercession and aid on behalf of all believers. It is merely intricacies that are being discussed, and ultimately have no real impact on the end effect: that Mary leads us closer to her Son than any other creature possibly can.

If Mary leads, then will you follow Her to Christ? Or will you, as a creature who can only lead yourself to Christ with difficulty, continue to seek your own way to Him?

Is that not the root of the issue we are discussing here?

And this question is at the heart of consecration to Mary. You will go through Mary for everything, abandon yourself to her completely in all things, choosing to believe that she will secure for you the graces you need to get to heaven. You will even give all merit you have earned as a result of cooperating with that grace back to Mary as a gift for her to use for the salvation of souls as she sees fit. You will become a slave of Mary and give the salvation of your soul into Mary’s hands. That is what consecration to Jesus through Mary is.

I was consecrated to Mary on Dec 08, 2011 at the Monastery of Our Lady of the Holy Spirit in Conyers, Georgia. This is the document I signed after the homily. I placed it on the altar in the crypt of the Abbey Church where it remained during Mass celebrated by Fr. Anthony OSCO, a Cistercian Monk.



-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Not really sure if I can be of much help here but I’ll give it a shot.

Well - yes and no - certainly Mary can intercede for us and because of her place as the mother of our King, she is held to have special influence.
**That said - as I understand the term Mediatrix (or mediator) it is more like a “channel” through which something flows - in this case grace. The grace does not originate in her but she channels it as directed by the wishes of God (which are her own wishes as well).
**

I would say that you are doing just fine.

As to the word “revere”…well have you considered the various words that stem from the same root? Reverence is something we grant to another…ministers are sometimes called “reverend” and there is that root “rever” again.
Revere indicates great respect and even filial love.

Does that help?

Peace
James

James, a mediator is not a channel through which something flows. Mary is not a pipe through which graces flow.

A mediator is one who goes back and forth, bringing proposals from one party to another party and returning with a with a reply. They voice the concerns of one party to the other, explain their position, get buy in, and try to bring both sides together. A mediator helps settle differences between conflicting parties. A mediator is actively engaged in the process of resolving differences, not just one who delivers messages.

Mary is not an inanimate pipe or some kind of funnel.

-Tim-

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Again, I got into the discussion because of the expression of concern about the quote, that the Holy Spirit acts only through the Mary Immaculate. This should not be a concern at all. No follower of Christ should shy away from God’s plan for our salvation.

It should concern Christians that the Third Person of the Trinity chooses to act through Mary no more than they are concerned that the Second Person of the Trinity chose to be obedient to Mary. Jesus chose to become humble, the lowest of all, a slave, completely obedient even to death - this concerns no one. On the contrary, we rejoice in it.

It is Gods sovereign choice that these things are so. He wills that it be so. We should rejoice in it and celebrate it. There is no cause for concern.

-Tim-

If, indeed, the Church does affirm that the Spirit operates only through Mary, I will gladly accept this, believing that I might understand. But does the Church teach this about Mary in the same way St Kolbe does? And where in Tradition is this found? I appreciate your quotes from Augustine and EWTN.

Thanks for all the help so far.

 

[godisgood77]

If Mary leads, then will you follow Her to Christ? Or will you, as a creature who can only lead yourself to Christ with difficulty, continue to seek your own way to Him?

Is that not the root of the issue we are discussing here?

And this question is at the heart of consecration to Mary. You will go through Mary for everything, abandon yourself to her completely in all things, choosing to believe that she will secure for you the graces you need to get to heaven. You will even give all merit you have earned as a result of cooperating with that grace back to Mary as a gift for her to use for the salvation of souls as she sees fit. You will become a slave of Mary and give the salvation of your soul into Mary’s hands. That is what consecration to Jesus through Mary is.

I was consecrated to Mary on Dec 08, 2011 at the Monastery of Our Lady of the Holy Spirit in Conyers, Georgia. This is the document I signed after the homily. I placed it on the altar in the crypt of the Abbey Church where it remained during Mass celebrated by Fr. Anthony OSCO, a Cistercian Monk.

http://timhollingworth.webs.com/img/consecration.jpg

-Tim-

I for one will seek to conform myself to the divine will. I constantly ask Mary and the saints for help and pray with them to God. I’m consecrating myself and my family to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. It is equivalent to a vow. Marian consecration is/was not the path I was led to, but I’m confident that following the Sacred Heart of Jesus is a good and righteous path. Now is that following my own path or one that is well proven to lead to our Lord? Or is there only one path - consecration to Mary?

The fundamental question of this thread is whether or not the Holy Spirit acts without going through Mary. I would say yes, the Spirit does. Graces from the Holy Spirit flow naturally through the sacraments and through the saints. The Church teaches this.

Mary is a great uniting force in the Church. I can no think of a creature that brings more souls together in faith directed to our Lord. James says it well…it’s when pious private devotions are put forward as absolute truths that confusion enters.

 

[godisgood77]

James, a mediator is not a channel through which something flows. Mary is not a pipe through which graces flow.

A mediator is one who goes back and forth, bringing proposals from one party to another party and returning with a with a reply. They voice the concerns of one party to the other, explain their position, get buy in, and try to bring both sides together. A mediator helps settle differences between conflicting parties. A mediator is actively engaged in the process of resolving differences, not just one who delivers messages.

Mary is not an inanimate pipe or some kind of funnel.

-Tim-

So your saying that Mary mediates and gets God to change his mind and compromise? That’s definitely a new idea, no?