Mary, mediatrix of all graces

  • Thread starter Thread starter PeaceInChrist
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
If Mary leads, then will you follow Her to Christ? Or will you, as a creature who can only lead yourself to Christ with difficulty, continue to seek your own way to Him?

Is that not the root of the issue we are discussing here?

And this question is at the heart of consecration to Mary. You will go through Mary for everything, abandon yourself to her completely in all things, choosing to believe that she will secure for you the graces you need to get to heaven. You will even give all merit you have earned as a result of cooperating with that grace back to Mary as a gift for her to use for the salvation of souls as she sees fit. You will become a slave of Mary and give the salvation of your soul into Mary’s hands. That is what consecration to Jesus through Mary is.

I was consecrated to Mary on Dec 08, 2011 at the Monastery of Our Lady of the Holy Spirit in Conyers, Georgia. This is the document I signed after the homily. I placed it on the altar in the crypt of the Abbey Church where it remained during Mass celebrated by Fr. Anthony OSCO, a Cistercian Monk.

http://timhollingworth.webs.com/img/consecration.jpg

-Tim-
I think you are misunderstanding me. I am questioning the validity of a statement that I am unsure of in terms of doctrine/dogma. Not that Mary does what the Church has affirmed she does. I am seeking to understand, and not to be lectured about my spirituality.

Thank you
 
I think you are misunderstanding me. I am questioning the validity of a statement that I am unsure of in terms of doctrine/dogma. Not that Mary does what the Church has affirmed she does. I am seeking to understand, and not to be lectured about my spirituality.

Thank you
Peace - to answer your question directly. I would say no the Church does not teach exactly as Monfort or Kolbe do when it comes to Marian theology. I posted a link or two earlier referencing a statement that JPII made about it and a few quotes from Lumen Gentium. The idea of Mediatrix of All Graces has been clearly identified as a theological question that has not been answered yet by the Church. At VII, it was debated thoroughly and the majority of council fathers decided against including it in the most authoritative teaching document the Church employs - the Apostolic Constitution Lumen Gentium. Further, given that theologians and Church leaders are not united on this, we are not bound to profess it. This in no way takes away from Mary’s privileged place nor does it mean we don’t love her as her spiritual children.
 
James, a mediator is not a channel through which something flows. Mary is not a pipe through which graces flow.

A mediator is one who goes back and forth, bringing proposals from one party to another party and returning with a with a reply. They voice the concerns of one party to the other, explain their position, get buy in, and try to bring both sides together. A mediator helps settle differences between conflicting parties. A mediator is actively engaged in the process of resolving differences, not just one who delivers messages.

Mary is not an inanimate pipe or some kind of funnel.

-Tim-
👍 - Yes - this is a better explanation.

Peace
James
 
If Mary leads, then will you follow Her to Christ? Or will you, as a creature who can only lead yourself to Christ with difficulty, continue to seek your own way to Him?

Is that not the root of the issue we are discussing here?

And this question is at the heart of consecration to Mary. You will go through Mary for everything, abandon yourself to her completely in all things, choosing to believe that she will secure for you the graces you need to get to heaven. You will even give all merit you have earned as a result of cooperating with that grace back to Mary as a gift for her to use for the salvation of souls as she sees fit. You will become a slave of Mary and give the salvation of your soul into Mary’s hands. That is what consecration to Jesus through Mary is.

I was consecrated to Mary on Dec 08, 2011 at the Monastery of Our Lady of the Holy Spirit in Conyers, Georgia. This is the document I signed after the homily. I placed it on the altar in the crypt of the Abbey Church where it remained during Mass celebrated by Fr. Anthony OSCO, a Cistercian Monk.

http://timhollingworth.webs.com/img/consecration.jpg

-Tim-
Been there many times when I was a student…many, ahem, a few years ago. 😛
 
So your saying that Mary mediates and gets God to change his mind and compromise? That’s definitely a new idea, no?
No, God does not compromise. God in his great mercy, forgives. But the idea of mediation is not new and has to do with the idea of a covenant. When we understand covenants correctly we will understand mediation.

Abraham mediated between God and man on the subject of the destruction of Sodom.

Then Abraham drew near, and said, “Wilt thou indeed destroy the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; wilt thou then destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? Far be it from thee to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from thee! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” And the LORD said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” (Genesis 18:23-26)

Moses mediated the convenant between God and man at Mt. Sinai, going up and down the mountain no less than five times. Moses often reminded God of the covenant with Abraham to make his descendants a mighty nation and thereby stopped the destruction of the people.

But Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, “O LORD, why does thy wrath burn hot against thy people, whom thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, With evil intent did he bring them forth, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou didst swear by thine own self, and didst say to them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it for ever.’” And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people. (Exodus 32:11-14)

Covenants form family bonds. God is a Father. Every child has asked his mother to soften his father’s heart and lift some strict punishment.

Consider how a priest calls down the Holy Spirit ruing the Eucharistic prayer. It is a beautiful part of the liturgy called the epiclesis. This is from Eucharistic prayer II.

Make holy, therefore, these gifts, we pray by sending down your Spirit upon them like the dewfall, so that they may become for us the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The word epiclesis means “calling down from on high”. It is stated as a petition but we believe that the Holy Spirit is present in a special way at the epiclesis. It is almost as if the priest has been given the power to command the Holy Spirit to be present for consecration. This is the great dignity and great power which God has given to his priests and why they deserve reverence and respect. It is almost as if God has willingly subjected himself to the command of the priest, no?

-Tim-
 
My impression of the Mediatrix of Mary is that there is both the simple understanding of her close relation and cooperation with Jesus, which because of Christ’s merit and protection, allowed her to illuminate and assist freely God’s ministry and mission as mankind was created to do…
…and the deep and spiritually mature understanding of heavenly things and how Mary as the Mother of the whole body of Christ, already brought into perfection and union with God, actively participates in all His work and life.

One understanding most Christians can receive, while the other takes more spiritual wisdom than most of us have.

So we get some non-Cats who are offended at the notion of titles like these, cuz they are based on deep, difficult, heavenly concepts and relations…and some Catholics who do not have the fundamental understandings of the basic gospel yet delve into the deep waters of Catholic teachings on Mary.

Either way, the genuine people of good faith should grow in their wisdom and relationship in Jesus.

Good discussions here. Just want to keep reading.
Michael
 
No, God does not compromise. God in his great mercy, forgives. But the idea of mediation is not new and has to do with the idea of a covenant. When we understand covenants correctly we will understand mediation.

Abraham mediated between God and man on the subject of the destruction of Sodom.

Then Abraham drew near, and said, “Wilt thou indeed destroy the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; wilt thou then destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? Far be it from thee to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from thee! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” And the LORD said, "If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake." (Genesis 18:23-26)

Moses mediated the convenant between God and man at Mt. Sinai, going up and down the mountain no less than five times. Moses often reminded God of the covenant with Abraham to make his descendants a mighty nation and thereby stopped the destruction of the people.

But Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, “O LORD, why does thy wrath burn hot against thy people, whom thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, With evil intent did he bring them forth, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou didst swear by thine own self, and didst say to them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it for ever.’” And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people. (Exodus 32:11-14)

Covenants form family bonds. God is a Father. Every child has asked his mother to soften his father’s heart and lift some strict punishment.

Consider how a priest calls down the Holy Spirit ruing the Eucharistic prayer. It is a beautiful part of the liturgy called the epiclesis. This is from Eucharistic prayer II.

Make holy, therefore, these gifts, we pray by sending down your Spirit upon them like the dewfall, so that they may become for us the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The word epiclesis means “calling down from on high”. It is stated as a petition but we believe that the Holy Spirit is present in a special way at the epiclesis. It is almost as if the priest has been given the power to command the Holy Spirit to be present for consecration. This is the great dignity and great power which God has given to his priests and why they deserve reverence and respect. It is almost as if God has willingly subjected himself to the command of the priest, no?

-Tim-
Thanks Tim. I would say you provided ample biblical proof that the Spirit acts through multiple channels as he sees fit…Abraham, Moses, Priests, Mary, Saints… He’s all powerful and a bit unpredictable. We shouldn’t try to box him in.
 
The dogma will be declared when sufficient numbers of Catholics become shy enough, or deny it outright. I don’t know what my feelings about it will be. I will rejoice that it is is declared but will be sad that it had to be.

The Hispanics in the USA are strong with regard to Marian doctrines. It is one of the reasons why I don’t look down on illegal immigrants in the USA. I believe that God may have sent them to us to save us from ourselves. We have become so tepid about believing our own faith.

-Tim-
 
Tim, you seem like a good and passionate Catholic. I certainly respect your strong faith and acknowledge your right to whatever pious devotion you feel drawn to. However, I do not see anything in the posts from the folks in this thread that I would call tepid about believing our own faith…. I see good passionate Catholics trying to help a brother in faith out by answering his question.

Here are few thoughts I’ve pulled together on the topic of Mary Mediatrix of All Graces…

I think it’s important to start by reminding everyone of the weight of the various Church teaching documents… in descending order of formal authority: apostolic/dogmatic constitution, encyclical letter, encyclical epistle, apostolic exhortation, apostolic letter, letter and message. Lumen Gentium is an Apostolic Constitution which carries the great weight and would hold a higher place than the Apostolic Letters and Encyclicals frequently referenced as mentioning the idea of Mediatrix of All Graces

Lumen Gentium very purposefully stopped short of declaring Mary the Mediatrix of All Graces when it said “Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. These, however, are to be so understood that they neither take away from nor add to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator.”

This is clear when you understand how the teaching was formed at the VII. During the daily interventions, Archbishop Corrado Mingo of Monreale, Italy argued at the Council that the title “Mediatrix” should be amplified to “Mediatrix of All Graces”, yet it was omitted from LG. Several other Council fathers made that argument as well, still it was not included. It’s a well documented fact that it was considered a compromise between disparate groups at the Council to include the title ‘Mediatrix’, let alone ‘of All Graces’. The fact that the topic was openly argued on the council floor is pretty compelling evidence that the doctrine is not fully formed, let alone universally agreed on by Church Fathers.

Also at the Council, Bishop Ancel, of Lyons, France said that title “Mediatrix” was given in LG, but at the same time it was given no endorsement, thus leaving the door open for further study as the topic is still heavily debated among theologians. "Perhaps the title ‘Mediatrix might be listed with the other titles, in order to avoid the impression that it is a privileged one’ he said.

To further reinforce the point that the doctrine was not fully formed in the Constitution…during the Council, Cardinal Alfrink of the Netherlands said “the title ‘Mediatrix’ should not be insisted upon, since it generates such great difficulties.” There was a clear divisions between the Council Fathers on whether or not to even include the title 'Mediatrix", let alone define it… And there is no mention of ‘Mediatrix of All Graces.’

Last point, the last formal action on this subject was in 1997, when, at the request of the Holy See, a commission was formed to determine whether or not a 5th Marian Dogma should be defined addressing the titles Coredemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate. The commission unanimously decided not to define a fifth Marian dogma on those titles. You can read more about it here miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/societies/PAMI/12/index.html

So….A Dogmatic Constitution holds the Church’s highest teaching authority. Lumen Gentium did not declare Mary ‘Mediatrix of All Graces.’ and purposefully omitted it from the Constitution. The Church has yet to define a teaching on Mary a ‘Mediatrix’ and the last formal action on the subject ended with a decision not to pursue a definition.

This piece of Marian devotion seems to fall in to the category of personal devotion. The Church may one day declare Mary to be "Mediatrix of All Graces’, but it does not teach that today.
 
Tim, you seem like a good and passionate Catholic. I certainly respect your strong faith and acknowledge your right to whatever pious devotion you feel drawn to. However, I do not see anything in the posts from the folks in this thread that I would call tepid about believing our own faith…. I see good passionate Catholics trying to help a brother in faith out by answering his question.

Here are few thoughts I’ve pulled together on the topic of Mary Mediatrix of All Graces…

I think it’s important to start by reminding everyone of the weight of the various Church teaching documents… in descending order of formal authority: apostolic/dogmatic constitution, encyclical letter, encyclical epistle, apostolic exhortation, apostolic letter, letter and message. Lumen Gentium is an Apostolic Constitution which carries the great weight and would hold a higher place than the Apostolic Letters and Encyclicals frequently referenced as mentioning the idea of Mediatrix of All Graces

Lumen Gentium very purposefully stopped short of declaring Mary the Mediatrix of All Graces when it said “Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. These, however, are to be so understood that they neither take away from nor add to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator.”

This is clear when you understand how the teaching was formed at the VII. During the daily interventions, Archbishop Corrado Mingo of Monreale, Italy argued at the Council that the title “Mediatrix” should be amplified to “Mediatrix of All Graces”, yet it was omitted from LG. Several other Council fathers made that argument as well, still it was not included. It’s a well documented fact that it was considered a compromise between disparate groups at the Council to include the title ‘Mediatrix’, let alone ‘of All Graces’. The fact that the topic was openly argued on the council floor is pretty compelling evidence that the doctrine is not fully formed, let alone universally agreed on by Church Fathers.

Also at the Council, Bishop Ancel, of Lyons, France said that title “Mediatrix” was given in LG, but at the same time it was given no endorsement, thus leaving the door open for further study as the topic is still heavily debated among theologians. "Perhaps the title ‘Mediatrix might be listed with the other titles, in order to avoid the impression that it is a privileged one’ he said.

To further reinforce the point that the doctrine was not fully formed in the Constitution…during the Council, Cardinal Alfrink of the Netherlands said “the title ‘Mediatrix’ should not be insisted upon, since it generates such great difficulties.” There was a clear divisions between the Council Fathers on whether or not to even include the title 'Mediatrix", let alone define it… And there is no mention of ‘Mediatrix of All Graces.’

Last point, the last formal action on this subject was in 1997, when, at the request of the Holy See, a commission was formed to determine whether or not a 5th Marian Dogma should be defined addressing the titles Coredemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate. The commission unanimously decided not to define a fifth Marian dogma on those titles. You can read more about it here miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/societies/PAMI/12/index.html

So….A Dogmatic Constitution holds the Church’s highest teaching authority. Lumen Gentium did not declare Mary ‘Mediatrix of All Graces.’ and purposefully omitted it from the Constitution. The Church has yet to define a teaching on Mary a ‘Mediatrix’ and the last formal action on the subject ended with a decision not to pursue a definition.

This piece of Marian devotion seems to fall in to the category of personal devotion. The Church may one day declare Mary to be "Mediatrix of All Graces’, but it does not teach that today.
Much appreciated post 👍

Michael
 
Tim, you seem like a good and passionate Catholic. I certainly respect your strong faith and acknowledge your right to whatever pious devotion you feel drawn to. However, I do not see anything in the posts from the folks in this thread that I would call tepid about believing our own faith…. I see good passionate Catholics trying to help a brother in faith out by answering his question.

Here are few thoughts I’ve pulled together on the topic of Mary Mediatrix of All Graces…

I think it’s important to start by reminding everyone of the weight of the various Church teaching documents… in descending order of formal authority: apostolic/dogmatic constitution, encyclical letter, encyclical epistle, apostolic exhortation, apostolic letter, letter and message. Lumen Gentium is an Apostolic Constitution which carries the great weight and would hold a higher place than the Apostolic Letters and Encyclicals frequently referenced as mentioning the idea of Mediatrix of All Graces

Lumen Gentium very purposefully stopped short of declaring Mary the Mediatrix of All Graces when it said “Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. These, however, are to be so understood that they neither take away from nor add to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator.”

This is clear when you understand how the teaching was formed at the VII. During the daily interventions, Archbishop Corrado Mingo of Monreale, Italy argued at the Council that the title “Mediatrix” should be amplified to “Mediatrix of All Graces”, yet it was omitted from LG. Several other Council fathers made that argument as well, still it was not included. It’s a well documented fact that it was considered a compromise between disparate groups at the Council to include the title ‘Mediatrix’, let alone ‘of All Graces’. The fact that the topic was openly argued on the council floor is pretty compelling evidence that the doctrine is not fully formed, let alone universally agreed on by Church Fathers.

Also at the Council, Bishop Ancel, of Lyons, France said that title “Mediatrix” was given in LG, but at the same time it was given no endorsement, thus leaving the door open for further study as the topic is still heavily debated among theologians. "Perhaps the title ‘Mediatrix might be listed with the other titles, in order to avoid the impression that it is a privileged one’ he said.

To further reinforce the point that the doctrine was not fully formed in the Constitution…during the Council, Cardinal Alfrink of the Netherlands said “the title ‘Mediatrix’ should not be insisted upon, since it generates such great difficulties.” There was a clear divisions between the Council Fathers on whether or not to even include the title 'Mediatrix", let alone define it… And there is no mention of ‘Mediatrix of All Graces.’

Last point, the last formal action on this subject was in 1997, when, at the request of the Holy See, a commission was formed to determine whether or not a 5th Marian Dogma should be defined addressing the titles Coredemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate. The commission unanimously decided not to define a fifth Marian dogma on those titles. You can read more about it here miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/societies/PAMI/12/index.html

So….A Dogmatic Constitution holds the Church’s highest teaching authority. Lumen Gentium did not declare Mary ‘Mediatrix of All Graces.’ and purposefully omitted it from the Constitution. The Church has yet to define a teaching on Mary a ‘Mediatrix’ and the last formal action on the subject ended with a decision not to pursue a definition.

This piece of Marian devotion seems to fall in to the category of personal devotion. The Church may one day declare Mary to be "Mediatrix of All Graces’, but it does not teach that today.
Thank you for your help.
 
It is one of my favorite places in the world. I’ll tell you a secret. I went on vocation retreat there… timhollingworth.blogspot.com/2010/10/a-weekend-of-peace.html

How is Catholicism in Raleigh? I have been to St. Francis (in Wake Forest?) and to the Church in Cary (St. Michael?) when I travel for business. We have a big office in Morrisville.

-Tim-
I was a candidate for many years…though I really expected to enter Spencer. I visited Conyers, Mepkin, and Snowmass, also.

Catholicism is growing due to all the Yank…er, Northerners that are moving down. We are planning to build a new Cathedral that will seat 2,000 beginning in 2014:

http://www.mccreryarchitects.com/wp...name-of-jesus/raleigh-01-perspective-east.jpg
 
I have the greatest love and devotion to Our Lady. However the title Mediatrix of all graces leaves a bad taste in my mouth as we come to God through His Son, Jesus whom we adore.
To my knowledge the Church has not given Mary this title, and until it does, I will continue to ask Our Lady for her intercession and continue to seek forgiveness and graces from Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Mary will not be annoyed that we give our entire loyalty and adoration to her Son.
 
👍
This is fine so long as the information is clearly stated so that it can be properly understood by the faithful.

Agreed.
However - - what we are trying to do is to help the OP to better understand what is troubling him/her
Consider what the OP relates as a quote from the book…*“The Holy Spirit does not act except through the Immaculata, His spouse. Hence, she is the Mediatrix of all the graces of the Holy Spirit.” * This is a rather remarkable statement to make about the third person of the Trinity and in my view - is not something I am inclined to embrace without a solemn definition by the Church.

While I am quite comfortable (on some levels) with the idea of coming to Christ through Mary, there are certain ideas contained in the commonly used devotions that I am just not comfortable with. Mediatrix of all graces is one.

Peace
James
 
Again, I got into the discussion because of the expression of concern about the quote, that the Holy Spirit acts only through the Mary Immaculate. This should not be a concern at all. No follower of Christ should shy away from God’s plan for our salvation.

It should concern Christians that the Third Person of the Trinity chooses to act through Mary no more than they are concerned that the Second Person of the Trinity chose to be obedient to Mary. Jesus chose to become humble, the lowest of all, a slave, completely obedient even to death - this concerns no one. On the contrary, we rejoice in it.

It is Gods sovereign choice that these things are so. He wills that it be so. We should rejoice in it and celebrate it. There is no cause for concern.

-Tim-
The problem is, for me, that I do not believe the 5th Marian Dogma, as it has been called, to be true. I fully accept the Four Defined Dogmas…and I do believe The Blessed Virgin Mary to be the greatest human mediator, because of her unique role in Salvation…but I cannot believe that the Holy Spirit is limited to pouring out His grace upon us only through Mary…or that He Himself wills it to be so. Nor do I believe that we must “come to Christ through Mary.” (Sorry, I do not recall the author of that quote)…it was through Mary that our Lord came to us.

God bless.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top