Mary Mediatrix of All Graces

[Tis_Bearself]

In fairness, I do tend to think that any layers between myself and Christ would have probably been worth a mention.

I don’t think of her as a “layer”.

More like an open door with a big lighted sign saying “Express Lane to Christ”.

 

[anon10271182]

Exactly, 'Tis. She’s not a barrier, she’s a conduit.

 

[Vonsalza]

I think you and a few others are failing to understand that the sentence, “Jesus Christ our Lord, who alone is our Redeemer and Savior”, and the idea that the Holy Virgin Mary is our only means of Salvation do not contradict each other. No one is proposing that the Holy Virgin is the source of anything. She is the storehouse that is full of God’s mercy. She is likened to the Church, which is also the only source of our Salvation. So of course you’re going to find the saying you posted from Trent, because it is scriptural and true. It does not however change the fact that the method in which we are given these gifts, is by means of the Holy Virgin, The Church, and others too. Your Parents or Friends that bring you to the knowledge and Salvation of Christ are also your means of Salvation, but so is Christ, the Holy Virgin, the Church, the Angels, and of course the source is the Holy Trinity.

The statement quoted is talking about a with or without idea of Christ. Without Christ, no salvation, with Christ, salvation. How else you are saved by Christ is not the topic. Christ saves us by the Holy Virgin, because He is only Jesus Christ because he took flesh from her.

Sure. “Mary’s His mom, so she played a role in that limited regard.” I’m fine with that. I was just pointing out to @anon10271182 that co-redemptrix soteriology has been identified as a heresy at Trent. Of course, I’m familiar with the defense they’ll likely post where “I’m really worshiping Jesus” or "she’s only kinda co-redemptrix - not enough to run afoul of the council! I doubt the fathers of that day would have been impressed.

There’s been a fervor in Catholic history to try and shoe-horn Mary more and more into the salvific process. Thankfully, it hit its high-water mark in the 15th/16th century and has been on ebb ever since.

That’s something I like about Orthodoxy. The only Marian “dogmas” they hold is that 1. she’s the mother of God and 2. she’s ever-virgin. That’s it. “She ‘mediates’ for us only insofar as she prays and intercedes on our behalf.” (from OCA website) So, arguably, “intercessor” is an all-round better title.
That’s about where I stand.

I’m sure it’s because I’m a cradle protestant and some things are just harder to swallow when you don’t first taste them until you’re an adult. But I’m here to worship God, not His mom. To those of you that counter with “it’s the same thing!” or “one leads to the other”, I offer a thumbs up with a hearty “pax” and “you do you, bud!”.

 

[AugustTherese]

JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD, WHO ALONE IS OUR REDEEMER

Hence the term ‘Co-Redemptrix’.

God willed that this work of salvation be accomplished through the collaboration of a woman, while respecting her free will (Gal. 4:4)

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD, WHO ALONE IS OUR REDEEMER

Hence the term ‘Co-Redemptrix’.

God willed that this work of salvation be accomplished through the collaboration of a woman, while respecting her free will (Gal. 4:4)

Mine gives Gal 4:“4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under [e]the Law,”

Essentially “He had a mother”.

And if that’s all it means, then fine; it’s a meaningless honorific. I’m a co-redeemer of the guy I shared the gospel with last week. In some small way, the clerk that prepared my meal before I discussed it was also a co-redeemer.

If it doesn’t really mean anything, then again; fine.

 

[anon10271182]

Exactly, AugustTherese. Mary is co-operative in redemption in that she distributes the graces of Christ. We give Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit latria. We give the saints dulia. And we are to give Mary hyperdulia.

 

[AugustTherese]

Essentially “He had a mother”.

A mother that said yes to the great plan of Redemption that was to go through her womb and life of guiding, nourishing, and rearing the Redeemer.

 

[Vonsalza]

Exactly, AugustTherese. Mary is co-operative in redemption in that she distributes the graces of Christ. We give Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit latria. We give the saints Julia. And we are to give Mary hyperdulia.

I heard once that hyperdulia is what you call it when you’re actually giving latria but don’t want to be called out on heresy.

what’s julia? Did you mean plain ole dulia?

 

[Vonsalza]

she distributes the graces of Christ.

What function, then, do you think the Holy Spirit performs, just out of curiosity?

 

[pacloc]

I understand, but I think it is really awesome to try to let go of our past wrong ideas and try to embrace the ancient faith. I was raised as a Jehovah Witness from the ages of 5 to 28, so I know about fearing anything close to even as asking for prayers from “dead” people.

A few lines that touch on the topic of this discussion from The Service of the Salutations to the Most Holy Theotokos that we do during lent:

All-lauded one, rejoice, divine * entrance of those who are being saved.

O rejoice, untainted Lady. * Mercy seat for the world, rejoice, * ladder elevating * everyone from earth by an act of grace.

O Lady, rejoice, * through whom we are fulfilled with joy * and inherit life eternal.

Deceased have been quickened through your power, * for pregnant were you with life hypostasized. * They who once were speechless now * speak with newfound eloquence. * Diseases are exterminated, lepers purified. * The legions of * the aerial spirits, * O Virgin, are defeated, for you are man’s salvation.

O Birthgiver of the world’s salvation, * through you we are raised from earth unto the heights. * Ever-blessed Maid, rejoice, * fortress and protective veil, * O pure one, the defense and the fortification of all * who sing the hymn: * O praise and supremely * exalt the Lord, O all you His works unto the ages.

So that we may cry, * rejoice, unto you through whom we faithful have become * sharers of eternal joy, * O Maiden, rescue us from temptations all, * barbarian invasions and from every other scourge, * which are bound to * follow on the multitude * of transgressions committed by sinful man.

Since you have appeared, * our light and our surety, we therefore shout to you: * O unsetting star, rejoice, * from which the great Sun emerged unto the world. * Rejoice, O pure one, for you opened Eden closed of old. * O rejoice, the * fiery pillar ushering * humankind out of bondage to life on high

Pure and guileless dove * who brought forth the Lord of mercy as an olive branch, * Ever-virgin, O rejoice. * The boast of every devout monastic Saint, * rejoice, the crown of laurel of the martyr athletes. Rejoice, * the divine adornment of the righteous all, * and for us the believers deliverance.

Rejoice, who open the portals of Paradise.

 

[stpurl]

Right. Because Catholics really do worship Mary, but insist that they don’t. It must all be done in SECRET (wooo–wooo). Because Catholics are so upfront that yes they DO believe that the bread and wine are REALLY Christ’s body and blood, and uphold it in the teeth (so to speak) of any questioners, but they ‘sneak around’ giving ‘latria’ to Mary. That’s the ONE Catholic teaching that Catholics just can’t tell the truth about. . .

Sure. Yeah. OK. Keep telling us (not you personally, Von) that what we teach and claim is all fake and phony. . .

 

[anon10271182]

Yes. Typo corrected, thank you.

 

[pacloc]

I’m a co-redeemer of the guy I shared the gospel with last week. In some small way, the clerk that prepared my meal before I discussed it was also a co-redeemer.

This is not true. If you bring someone to Salvation then you could say with Paul, “My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you”. Don’t down play these terms that you struggle to have faith in, because that is dangerous. Fear God and if you don’t understand something, don’t insult it but try to learn about the ancient Church.

 

[anon10271182]

The Holy Spirit is God. Christ is God. The Father is God. One Essence, three Persons. All are equally the source of the graces of God.

 

[anon10271182]

“for many, even to call them a traditionalist is not sufficient since traditional is not ominous sounding enough for people, so now we have radical traditionalist or rad-trad is the common pejorative.”
http://www.creativeminorityreport.com/2013/08/if-im-not-rad-trad-or-progressive-what.html

pejorative: expressing contempt or disapproval. Synonyms include derogatory. disparaging, denigrating.

 

[godisgood77]

Mary is co-operative in redemption in that she distributes the graces of Christ.

Let’s look to the Wedding Feast of Cana. Here Mary intercedes and advocates for the young couple… and asks Christ to help. Christ them helps directly. He does not agree to help and then have Mary do the distribution of that help, does he? For me, that is enough evidence that Mary is not the Mediatrix of All Graces …All is the operative and disputed word

Now this takes nothing away from Mary’s unique role in salvation history. The immaculately Conception, The Assumption, Divine Maternity, Perpetual Virginity, etc … are massive honors that the Church and God gave to Mary… she is help above all other creatures… this new idea that she distributed All Graces has no basis in revelation … and I think she would be quick to point out that truth

 

[KMG]

Again, and for the umpteenth time, the liturgy is clear (and the liturgy of Mary Mediatrix of ALL Graces appears in both the OF and the EF, for those who automatically dismiss anything pre-Vatican II).

I assume those who disagree with this notion will walk out of church should this liturgy be used in their offended presence.

 

[godisgood77]

Again, and for the umpteenth time, the liturgy is clear (and the liturgy of Mary Mediatrix of ALL Graces appears in both the OF and the EF, for those who automatically dismiss anything pre-Vatican II).

I don’t believe this is as airtight an argument as you think…

For example, the Church allows for a Feast Day and Mass for Our Lady of Knock and other private revelations. However, mother Church does not insist that all believe in that apparition.

In other words, just because there is a feast day for the occasion does not settle a doctrinal question. Especially one where diversity of opinion is so well documented and there is a severe lack of basis in revelation. This much is clear

 

[Fauken]

But as previously pointed out, “Mediatrix of All Graces” would not be an apparition, but a truth regarding Mary. It is, as you said, a doctrinal question. She either is or is not the Mediatrix of All Graces. And if she isn’t, then the liturgy is falsely celebrating something about Our Lady. How could that be?

 

[anon10271182]

Exactly, Fauken. Obviously, it couldn’t be.
Mary is Mediatrix of all Graces. End of discussion.