Mary Mediatrix of All Graces

[Vonsalza]

Please explain how “Mediatrix of All Graces” equals “Co-Redemptrix.”

Didn’t say it did.

The problem is the apparent absence of a limiting principal. If Christs grace can be attributed to Mary because He “is through her”, why not the entire redemptive work? How do we determine what metaphysical aspects Christ shares with Mary and what aspects he doesn’t in a way that doesn’t appear fully arbitrary?

 

[stpurl]

Showing my age here, but remembering Frankie Valli (of the Four Seasons) singing, “My Eyes Adored You.”

How about that lovely Dior perfume, “J’Adore” (I adore)?

Oh, those ADORABLE babies. . .aren’t they cute?

Oh Mr. DeMille, I would just ADORE a closeup. . .

Funny how decades, centuries, millennia can go by and we can use words to mean all sorts of things and yet BAM! Screeching halt in the 20th and 21st centuries, somehow a few loud narrow-minded (not you personally, Agathon) intolerant clowns decide that some words can ONLY refer to GOD.

Prayer? That doesn’t mean a petition to anybody. Oh horrors we must destroy all works of Shakespeare, who used the word ‘prithee’ (pray thee) of MERE PEOPLE, and not GOD ALONE!

Worship? FIE on the people who for centuries understood it as a condition of WORTH (and all the English judges addressed as "Your Worship’), not to mention the Anglican wedding service of “with my body I thee WORSHIP”. Oh noes, worship can only be for GOD ALONE! Throw out any custom, any service, any literature, anything at all unless “worship’ in it means 'God alone”. .

Now it’s "Adore’. Can’t use THAT word unless it’s for God alone.

Give me a BREAK. Want to be Neddy or Nancy Narrowminded? Fine. Leave perfectly good words alone and Invent your own dang words for GOD ALONE and use them. I recommend something like farmelblanzit.

“Give farmelblanzit to God alone!” YOU’ll know what you mean, and nobody else will EVER be guilty of taking your farmelblanzit and applying it to anything but God.

 

[anon10271182]

I see. So you’re not equating Honorius and Alexander VI with Pope St. Pius X et. al. then. That’s good.

As far as graces, I don’t see anyone suggesting they originate with Mary. She is simply a conduit, as it were.

 

[Vonsalza]

I see. So you’re not equating Honorius and Alexander VI with Pope St. Pius X et. al. then. That’s good.

I kinda did in that they’re all popes. I’m sure every single one that’s ever existed has said something stupid. Including Pius X.

They’re men. They’ll have the same faults as men.

 

[anon10271182]

It’s Pope Saint Pius X. He was canonized in 1954.

 

[Vonsalza]

I see. So you’re not equating Honorius and Alexander VI with Pope St. Pius X et. al. then. That’s good.

As far as graces, I don’t see anyone suggesting they originate with Mary. She is simply a conduit, as it were.

Sure. And as the conduit through which Christ affects his salvific work, she is Co-Redeptrix.

Again, the lack of a clear limiting principal is the problem there.

 

[anon10271182]

Mary is Mediatrix. In fact, I’m now okay with “Co-Redemptrix” in the narrow sense, I.e. as a cooperator, not originator, of divine grace. Mary is not divine, even now. But she is Queen of Heaven, Queen of Apostles, Queen of Saints…and Mediatrix of all Graces! 'Nuff said!

 

[anon10271182]

"St. Ambrose of Milan (c. 339-397) wrote:
Mary was alone when the Holy Spirit came upon her and overshadowed her. She was alone when she saved the world — operata est mundi salutem – and when she conceived the redemption of all — concepit redemptionem universorum.

St. Ephraem of Syria (c. 306-373) called Mary the “dispensatrix of all goods.”

St. Cyril of Alexandria (d. 444) wrote:
“Hail, Mary, Mother of God, by whom all faithful souls are saved [sozetai]."

Source: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2017/03/mary-mediatrix-church-fathers-vs-james-white.html

Oh, those Mariolatrous Church Fathers!

 

[anon10271182]

“As the Son of God has designed to descend to us through you (Mary), so we also must come to him through you.” (56) “In your hands,” St. Peter Damian says of the Mother of Jesus, “are the treasures of the mercies of God.” (57)”
St. Peter Damien

"God has willed that we should have nothing which would not pass through the hands of Mary;” (58) and also: “This is the will of Him who wanted us to have everything through Mary.” (59)…God has placed in Mary the plenitude of every good, in order to have us understand that if there is any trace of hope in us, any trace of grace, any trace of salvation, it flows from her. (61)
St. Bernard of Clairvaux

"This is the process of divine graces: from God they flow to Christ, from Christ to his Mother, and from her to the Church…. I do not hesitate to say that she has received a certain jurisdiction over all graces…. They are administered through her hands…. (63)
St. Bernardine of Siena

Source: fifthmariandogma.com - This website is for sale! - fifthmariandogma Resources and Information.

Oh, those Mariolatrous saints!

 

[KMG]

Lex orandi, lex credendi.

The Church has an approved Mass and Office for this feast, which closes the door on whether the belief is Catholic. As I said before, I assume people who don’t agree with the belief will just walk out of Mass should the priest use the texts on a given day.

 

[Cement]

The Bible states there is only one High Priest, Advocate, and Mediator. I don’t see there a reason to put anything in between us and Jesus. If there indeed exists such an office in heaven as Mediatrix it would need to have a scriptural basis to it.

 

[KMG]

Catholics don’t accept Sola Scriptura. We’re not Protestants.

 

[CatholicTurk]

Tis_Bearself:

The Eucharist is a grace that I think of as “through” Mary because she bore Christ.

The graces I was mentioning are the ones I specifically ask Mary to give me. I pray to Our Lady of Grace frequently. My mother had a plastic statue of her that was about the first Mary I remember at all. I have it myself now.

I ask Our Lady to distribute me the graces I need and I feel confident she gives them to me.

All this other stuff just seems to me to be a lot of overthinking. I’m a pretty simple bear though and I love Mary whatever anybody says. She’s my adopted mom.

Yes, you can think of it that way; that is one of the meanings attached to the title “Mediatrix.”

For as long as this theology is understood (as Vatican II states it) in terms of her intercessory and cooperative role, there are no issues. Other imagery such as “distribute” even if ensconced in a papal encyclical do not conjure up accurate images, at least for me. Where you say “distribute” I would rather use the more precise term “obtain.”

As for overthinking, I would rather understand the best I can. One can love only as far as one knows. So I seek to know and understand more so that I can love more.

The need for better choice of words in Catholic teachings is something i cannot argue against. Especially in the long years when i was a Protestant it was both an easy-picking in my religious arguments with Catholics, and also a real challenge even for a harmless Protestant who is studying and looking into Catholicism. But i think it all boils down to coming to that point where you freely and willingly surrender to the Tradition and the Church’s teaching. This is not something like blind-faith, on the contrary it’s actually finding comfort, it’s leaving Pride behind by being open to comprehend and accept things both intellectually and spiritually. I admit it, not easy to get there, but when you do, it’s full of Peace and such a priceless joy.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The problem with words is that whatever words we use, they’re always going to be limited and inadequate to describe God or anything Godly, and subject to a lot of interpretation, or affected by the translation into one or another language. One person can think of a word one way, and another person hearing or reading the same word would get a totally different meaning or conclusion. We see this all the time in secular matters as well as religious.

I also think some people by nature, or by their training, perhaps in a profession that looks closely at individual words, are more likely to focus on which term is “precise” or “right” or conveys a specific meaning, and others simply don’t notice or care.

Someone coming into the Catholic faith from a tradition where they were taught to argue against all the words used by Catholics is going to have a totally different mindset from someone who was raised since very early childhood that we love Mary because she is Jesus’ Mom, and whatever she does is fine because she wants to lead you to Jesus, she never puts herself above Jesus, and she would never do anything bad or wrong.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I see that subtle quiet smoke of satan at work here.
Everyone arguing over titles for the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Divide and conquer . Rather then join together and

Pray more Rosaries!

 

[Vonsalza]

Mary is Mediatrix. In fact, I’m now okay with “Co-Redemptrix” in the narrow sense…

Oh, those Mariolatrous Church Fathers!

Oh, those Mariolatrous saints!

Council of Trent, Sess. 25
…the saints, who reign with Christ, offer up their prayers to God for me; and that it is good and useful to invoke them suppliantly and, in order to obtain favors from God through His Son JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD, WHO ALONE IS OUR REDEEMER and Savior….And they must also teach that images of Christ, the virgin mother of God and the other saints should be set up and kept… But if anyone should teach or maintain anything contrary to these decrees, let him be anathema.”

Oh, those Mariolatrous Church counc… Oh. Wait…

 

[Vonsalza]

The Bible states there is only one High Priest, Advocate, and Mediator. I don’t see there a reason to put anything in between us and Jesus. If there indeed exists such an office in heaven as Mediatrix it would need to have a scriptural basis to it.

Catholics don’t accept Sola Scriptura. We’re not Protestants.

In fairness, I do tend to think that any layers between myself and Christ would have probably been worth a mention.

This might be why a lot of Catholic intelligentsia will define “mediatrix” as simply being “mother”. Through her bodily medium/media we have Christ. As a salvific functionary, they’re hesitant to identify her as anything much more than “intercessor”.

 

[pacloc]

I think you and a few others are failing to understand that the sentence, “Jesus Christ our Lord, who alone is our Redeemer and Savior”, and the idea that the Holy Virgin Mary is our only means of Salvation do not contradict each other. No one is proposing that the Holy Virgin is the source of anything. She is the storehouse that is full of God’s mercy. She is likened to the Church, which is also the only source of our Salvation. So of course you’re going to find the saying you posted from Trent, because it is scriptural and true. It does not however change the fact that the method in which we are given these gifts, is by means of the Holy Virgin, The Church, and others too. Your Parents or Friends that bring you to the knowledge and Salvation of Christ are also your means of Salvation, but so is Christ, the Holy Virgin, the Church, the Angels, and of course the source is the Holy Trinity.

The statement quoted is talking about a with or without idea of Christ. Without Christ, no salvation, with Christ, salvation. How else you are saved by Christ is not the topic. Christ saves us by the Holy Virgin, because He is only Jesus Christ because he took flesh from her.

 

[anon10271182]

“Catholic intelligentsia.”
America Magazine, perhaps?

 

[anon10271182]

Absolutely right, pacloc. A clear statement of Mary’s role in the economy of salvation.