Mary on the Cross

[quasimodo]

We are not Christ.

I never said we are.

Submission to Christ, or if you prefer cooperation with Christ, does not make us co-redeemers of our salvation.

Why not?

Our redemption is solely by God…

**yet we are the instruments he uses to bring the salvation Christ won to the world… otherwise Jesus would have died and nobody would have heard of it. **

even to the extent that you believe in free will (and I do)…we are doing no more than accepting the promise offered by God.

**So you are not sent by Jesus as the father sent Jesus? **

Mary submitted herself to the will of God, as shown in the Magnificat, and is to be respected for that reason.

OK

Scripture tells us that she will be called Blessed…and she righfully is called such. But none of this makes her, or us, an advocate, mediator or redeemer…titles that belong solely to Christ.

So you are not part of the body of Christ? Why does Christ have a body if not to bring his salvation and redemption to the world?

I’ve been told over and over that Catholics don’t worship Mary…and I believe you

thank you

(although I suspect that some misguided Catholics probably do worship Mary).

They are called heretics, actually

Nonethess, the degree of devotion offered to Mary comes close to the line, is excessive, and reasonably leads others to believe that Catholics might, very well, substitute Mary on the Cross instead of her Son.]

** True … People like to believe comforting lies when it reinforces their prejudices**

 

[Jeanette_L]

The most effective lies contain elements of truth. When anti-Catholics claim that this is Mary on the Cross, which based on the posts above is apparently a lie, they fall for the lie because of the Church’s inappropriate raising of the Blessed Virgin to the level of mediator, advocate and co-redeemer. When that happens, conceiving Mary on a Catholic cross unfortunately does not seem quite as preposterous.

The effectiveness of the lies remain because anti-Catholics don’t want to do their homework and find out what these “offensive” Marian doctrines of the Catholic Church mean. They hear the above terms and immediately turn off their brains. They prefer sensationalism than actually digging into the meanings of the doctrines and how the Church came to them.

I’m not saying at the end of the day they have to agree with them, but don’t make them out to be something they aren’t. I’m talking about some intellectual honesty, for heaven’s sake. These doctrines are actually very logical when taken into context of what we are all called to be as Christ’s own Body. Total union with Him and what that really means. Being crucified with Christ as St. Paul says, and what that really means. These are all very logical doctrines. Mary is a type of the Church. We are all called to be these things.

It comes back to being more comfortable with believing and perpetuating a sensationalistic lie than with finding out and perpetuating the truth of what the Catholic Church actually believes and teaches.

 

[rr1213]

P

The effectiveness of the lies remain because anti-Catholics don’t want to do their homework and find out what these “offensive” Marian doctrines of the Catholic Church mean. They hear the above terms and immediately turn off their brains. They prefer sensationalism than actually digging into the meanings of the doctrines and how the Church came to them.

I’m not saying at the end of the day they have to agree with them, but don’t make them out to be something they aren’t. I’m talking about some intellectual honesty, for heaven’s sake. These doctrines are actually very logical when taken into context of what we are all called to be as Christ’s own Body. Total union with Him and what that really means. Being crucified with Christ as St. Paul says, and what that really means. These are all very logical doctrines. Mary is a type of the Church. We are all called to be these things.

It comes back to being more comfortable with believing and perpetuating a sensationalistic lie than with finding out and perpetuating the truth of what the Catholic Church actually believes and teaches.

Not always. For many years, I thought that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception referred only to the concept that Mary was conceived without original sin. When considering conversion to the Catholic Church, I discovered that the doctrine includes the concept that Mary was without any sin during her lifetime. My better understanding of Catholic doctrine has lead me away from the Catholic Church not towards it.

 

[Syele]

P

Not always. For many years, I thought that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception referred only to the concept that Mary was conceived without original sin. When considering conversion to the Catholic Church, I discovered that the doctrine includes the concept that Mary was without any sin during her lifetime. My better understanding of Catholic doctrine has lead me away from the Catholic Church not towards it.

I have to agree with this, I have been considering leaving this forum because the more I learn about Catholics and the more Catholics I seem to run into that know their faith, the less I agree and the less patience and respect I seem to have for Catholics.

 

[Mickey]

the more I learn about Catholics and the more Catholics I seem to run into that know their faith, the less I agree and the less patience and respect I seem to have for Catholics.

Hmmm, that is an interesting comment. Lack of patience and lack of respect for your brothers and sisters are not Christian virtues–they come from another place.

 

[Syele]

Hmmm, that is an interesting comment. Lack of patience and lack of respect for your brothers and sisters are not Christian virtues–they come from another place.

I agree, It is something I am praying about and working on changing. I am not yet perferct in Christ, but I am willing to allow him to work in me and change me. Being impatient and disrespectful is not something I want to be. However it is sometimes hard to feel respectful and patient towards those who are Christians yet have a distinct lack of charity, kindness, and gentleness.

The assumption that the reason I am concerned about Marian doctrines as a protestant is that I’m “anti-Catholic” and refuse to "Do my homework " on the subject seems quite harsh to me.

 

[Mickey]

I agree, It is something I am praying about and working on changing.

God bless you.

I am not yet perfect in Christ, but I am willing to allow him to work in me and change me.

Amen. This should be the goal of all Christians.

However it is sometimes hard to feel respectful and patient towards those who are Christians yet have a distinct lack of charity, kindness, and gentleness.

It is very difficult when someone treats us harshly, to not respond in the same way. That’s why I sometimes think of this forum as a spiritual exercise.

The assumption that the reason I am concerned about Marian doctrines as a protestant is that I’m “anti-Catholic” and refuse to "Do my homework " on the subject seems quite harsh to me.

I think that the “anti-Catholic” label is sometimes used too liberally. Only God knows our hearts.

Peace and blessings to you, Syele

 

[Stephen_C]

Syele,
Well there is a little difference between what rr1213 and you stated.
rr1213 just could not wrap himself around what he believes the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was without any sin during her lifetime “has lead me away from the Catholic Church”
For you (per your post) it is the actions of Catholic’s here on this forum that is causing you to lose respect for Catholic’s.
Now I know I really need to work on being more on charity. We all do. I am new to all ot this (Apologetics). I came to this site to learn more about how to defind my faith and to grow as a Catholic. And to some extent as a safe haven for Catholic thought, idea’s, and sharing. I am finding out it is not, but that is ok. I do like the idea that there are a lot of members of different faith background here. But I do have issues with members that seem to be here only to attack the Catholic faith. But then again this is an Apologetics forum. So I still need to show charity. This is something I am working on and need to pray more for.

 

[Syele]

It is very difficult when someone treats us harshly, to not respond in the same way. That’s why I sometimes think of this forum as a spiritual exercise.

I will try harder to look at it your way, as it seems to work for you.

 

[Syele]

Syele,
Well there is a little difference between what rr1213 and you stated.
rr1213 just could not wrap himself around what he believes the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was without any sin during her lifetime “has lead me away from the Catholic Church”
For you (per your post) it is the actions of Catholic’s here on this forum that is causing you to lose respect for Catholic’s.

I ment that for me it is the same as rr1213 there are many doctrines I have found to be true of the Catholic Church that I formerly didn’t know about and I simply can’t “Wrap myself around them” but that also some people’s actions compound the issue.

Now I know I really need to work on being more on charity. We all do. I am new to all ot this (Apologetics). I came to this site to learn more about how to defind my faith and to grow as a Catholic. And to some extent as a safe haven for Catholic thought, idea’s, and sharing. I am finding out it is not, but that is ok. I do like the idea that there are a lot of members of different faith background here. But I do have issues with members that seem to be here only to attack the Catholic faith. But then again this is an Apologetics forum. So I still need to show charity. This is something I am working on and need to pray more for.

We all have things we must work on, myself included, as I had just said. God Bless you.

 

[Stephen_C]

I ment that for me it is the same as rr1213 there are many doctrines I have found to be true of the Catholic Church that I formerly didn’t know about and I simply can’t “Wrap myself around them” but that also some people’s actions compound the issue.

We all have things we must work on, myself included, as I had just said. God Bless you.

Ok I understand now what you were saying. What I am finding out visiting this site is that I have anger issues when it comes to reading posts here from members that are here just to attack what I (Catholic) believe or attack others (non-catholic) believe…oh well…just need think first before posting on this forum. and maybe spending less time here.

God Bless.

 

[Jeanette_L]

P

Not always. For many years, I thought that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception referred only to the concept that Mary was conceived without original sin. When considering conversion to the Catholic Church, I discovered that the doctrine includes the concept that Mary was without any sin during her lifetime. My better understanding of Catholic doctrine has lead me away from the Catholic Church not towards it.

But you see, the point I was trying to make is that at least you did your homework! I didn’t say that in doing so you have to agree, but you know now at least what the Church truly teaches, and you probably won’t be the person who goes around telling sensational falsehoods about Catholicism, because you know better.

That is all I am saying, homework first = informed decisions.

 

[Maryam]

OK… concerning the pic posted by the OP causing all the ruckus on whether it is Mary on the Cross or not. The picture is of St. Wilgefortis as others have already pointed out. Some time ago when I attended an Italian festival they had holy cards of St. Wilgefortis where I remembered she looked very similar to the pic in this thread causing all the scandal, but, St. Wilgefortis was referred to by another name that is used for her and that is “Santa Liberata”.

In the FIRST pic below Santa Liberata has the same **HALO **as in the 2ND scandalous pic posted by the OP supposedly of Mary… (of which it is not):

http://www.prolococerretoguidi.it/immagini/liberata.gif Santa Liberata

Cincinnati News, Sports and Things to Do | Cincinnati Enquirer

And in other depictions of Santa Liberata (of which there are dozens) you will see she is sometimes depicted with a blue or white mantle on her head and sometimes not. As you can see below.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/1/1e/250px-Wilgefortis-wambierzyce.jpg

These are all the different names St. Wilgefortis goes by

catholic-forum.com/saints/saintw11.htm

Also known as
Comera; Cumerana; Dignefortis; Eutropia; Hulfe; Komina; Kummernis; Liberata; Librada; Lisvrade; Livrade; Ontcommene; Ontcommer; Ontkommena; Reginfledis; Uncumber; Virgo-Fortis

Anyway, I think if there were ever any images of Mary on the Cross (which I have never seen in all my life) they would be used by heretics and not true Catholics. I think people really have to take the time to do their own research as to what is the truth.

Unfortunately there are too many anti-Catholics that just love to spread the same lies about Our Blessed Mother over and over again.

God bless

P.S: And another image from Santa Liberata Culto (devotion) for the town of Cerreto Guidi website in Italy:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

santaliberata.org

 

[MariaG]

I ment that for me it is the same as rr1213 there are many doctrines I have found to be true of the Catholic Church that I formerly didn’t know about and I simply can’t “Wrap myself around them” but that also some people’s actions compound the issue.

We all have things we must work on, myself included, as I had just said. God Bless you.

It is hard sometimes separate out the actions of people and what they are saying.

On the one hand, Catholics say we have the FULLNESS of truth, yet frequently seem to be unable to implement that truth. It is hard to hear people say that we have the truth when they don’t seem to act on it. As well as the arrogance that we can seem to have because of our firm conviction that the Catholic Church does have the FULLNESS of Christian truth. (We are kind of like fundamentalist in the respect that we KNOW that the Catholic Church is the Apostolic Church and teaches ALL truth )

This inability to perfectly act out on the truth in no way lessens the truth that we speak however.

I remember one of the reasons I stopped going to church after barely starting was that my favorite priest was one of the active homosexual predators in the Catholic Church 30 years ago. I blamed not just the priest or the Church, I took it all the way to God.

I finally realized that the truth the priest spoke was in no way changed to falsehood because of his sin.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will help you to see the truth of what is spoken and forgive the uncharitable (and sometimes seemingly arrogant) way it is spoken at times.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Jeanette_L]

It is hard sometimes separate out the actions of people and what they are saying.

On the one hand, Catholics say we have the FULLNESS of truth, yet frequently seem to be unable to implement that truth. It is hard to hear people say that we have the truth when they don’t seem to act on it. As well as the arrogance that we can seem to have because of our firm conviction that the Catholic Church does have the FULLNESS of Christian truth. (We are kind of like fundamentalist in the respect that we KNOW that the Catholic Church is the Apostolic Church and teaches ALL truth )

This inability to perfectly act out on the truth in no way lessens the truth that we speak however.

I remember one of the reasons I stopped going to church after barely starting was that my favorite priest was one of the active homosexual predators in the Catholic Church 30 years ago. I blamed not just the priest or the Church, I took it all the way to God.

I finally realized that the truth the priest spoke was in no way changed to falsehood because of his sin.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will help you to see the truth of what is spoken and forgive the uncharitable (and sometimes seemingly arrogant) way it is spoken at times.

God Bless,
Maria

Maria-

That was very beautifully said. I think most of us at some point in our faith journey have been scandalized by other Christians, of one Tradition or Denomination or another and then used them as an excuse to not press forward in the direction the Spirit is leading us. I have been in this situation many times. But God doesn’t give up on us so easily, praise be to Him, He picks us up and sets us back on our way time after time.

Eventually though, we are called to maturity, we have to take responsibility for our own journey, with God’s help of course, in keeping our eyes on Him and on the Holy Spirit, putting aside the “offenses” we so readily cling to, chains that bind us and prevent us from making great strides, from soaring higher in our spiritual growth.

I hope those pilgrims on this forum are given and receive the grace to keep on seeking God in all Truth, ignoring all distractions or offenses whether it is what is being said or done by others around them. It’s the only way to true peace.

God Bless,
Jeanette

 

[LilyM]

OK… concerning the pic posted by the OP causing all the ruckus on whether it is Mary on the Cross or not. The picture is of St. Wilgefortis as others have already pointed out. Some time ago when I attended an Italian festival they had holy cards of St. Wilgefortis where I remembered she looked very similar to the pic in this thread causing all the scandal, but, St. Wilgefortis was referred to by another name that is used for her and that is “Santa Liberata”.

In the FIRST pic below Santa Liberata has the same **HALO **as in the 2ND scandalous pic posted by the OP supposedly of Mary… (of which it is not):

http://www.prolococerretoguidi.it/immagini/liberata.gif Santa Liberata

Cincinnati News, Sports and Things to Do | Cincinnati Enquirer

And in other depictions of Santa Liberata (of which there are dozens) you will see she is sometimes depicted with a blue or white mantle on her head and sometimes not. As you can see below.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/1/1e/250px-Wilgefortis-wambierzyce.jpg

These are all the different names St. Wilgefortis goes by

catholic-forum.com/saints/saintw11.htm

Also known as
Comera; Cumerana; Dignefortis; Eutropia; Hulfe; Komina; Kummernis; Liberata; Librada; Lisvrade; Livrade; Ontcommene; Ontcommer; Ontkommena; Reginfledis; Uncumber; Virgo-Fortis

Anyway, I think if there were ever any images of Mary on the Cross (which I have never seen in all my life) they would be used by heretics and not true Catholics. I think people really have to take the time to do their own research as to what is the truth.

Unfortunately there are too many anti-Catholics that just love to spread the same lies about Our Blessed Mother over and over again.

God bless

P.S: And another image from Santa Liberata Culto (devotion) for the town of Cerreto Guidi website in Italy:

http://www.santaliberata.org/images/sl1.gif

santaliberata.org

Interesting - lots of art (and some gorgeous objects) on that last website but not a single potentially-confusing image of Santa Liberata where she’s crucified!

 

[Syele]

It is hard sometimes separate out the actions of people and what they are saying.

On the one hand, Catholics say we have the FULLNESS of truth, yet frequently seem to be unable to implement that truth. It is hard to hear people say that we have the truth when they don’t seem to act on it. As well as the arrogance that we can seem to have because of our firm conviction that the Catholic Church does have the FULLNESS of Christian truth. (We are kind of like fundamentalist in the respect that we KNOW that the Catholic Church is the Apostolic Church and teaches ALL truth )

This inability to perfectly act out on the truth in no way lessens the truth that we speak however.

I remember one of the reasons I stopped going to church after barely starting was that my favorite priest was one of the active homosexual predators in the Catholic Church 30 years ago. I blamed not just the priest or the Church, I took it all the way to God.

I finally realized that the truth the priest spoke was in no way changed to falsehood because of his sin.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will help you to see the truth of what is spoken and forgive the uncharitable (and sometimes seemingly arrogant) way it is spoken at times.

God Bless,
Maria

Thank you Maria for the well thought out response. I do not blame the Catholic Church itself and especially not God for the things that anger me. NO Church will ever be perfect on this Earth because they are alll full of imperfect people!

It would all just work nicer if all Christians tried harder to give one another the benefit of the doubt. I don’t like to be seen as (because I’m not) an anti-Catholic who can only pray for two minutes at a time because I don’t use repetition and must naturally believe all Catholics worship Mary and the Pope… just because it says protestant in my CAF Profile. Now, no one in this thread was this harsh… but these are all assumptions made about me at one time or another since I joined CAF. These things are off-putting to say the least… just the same as protestants who accuse Catholics of wild things… like worshipping Mary or the many other things I occasionally see here.

My post up there was a plea to not assume the worst in people. When people do assume the worst, I get angry. As I said, I need to work on that. But boy, would it be nice if everyone just treated others how they’d like to be treated in the first place.

 

[MariaG]

Thank you Maria for the well thought out response. I do not blame the Catholic Church itself and especially not God for the things that anger me. NO Church will ever be perfect on this Earth because they are alll full of imperfect people!

It would all just work nicer if all Christians tried harder to give one another the benefit of the doubt. I don’t like to be seen as (because I’m not) an anti-Catholic who can only pray for two minutes at a time because I don’t use repetition and must naturally believe all Catholics worship Mary and the Pope… just because it says protestant in my CAF Profile. Now, no one in this thread was this harsh… but these are all assumptions made about me at one time or another since I joined CAF. These things are off-putting to say the least… just the same as protestants who accuse Catholics of wild things… like worshipping Mary or the many other things I occasionally see here.

My post up there was a plea to not assume the worst in people. When people do assume the worst, I get angry. As I said, I need to work on that. But boy, would it be nice if everyone just treated others how they’d like to be treated in the first place.

Yes it would be nice if people were to always assume the best about people. Especially in this type of forum when “tone” is so hard to “hear”. And it would be nice if everyone would assume the best of even the most ignorant who come hear with the tradional “anti-Catholic” rhetoric. Assume that they are ignorant and capable of “hearing” the truth of the teachings of the Catholic Church, no matter how many times it must be explained.

In my mind, someone is not “anti-Catholic” until they hear what Catholics say we believe and the response is “Yes you do worship Mary (gotten rid of a commandment, have extra books in the Bible etc.)” after well reasoned response on why these things just are not true. And even then, we should TRY to keep our tempers, although I believe we have all failed on this one.

You would think that if “everyone” knew these things about the Catholic Church and we actually taught these things, we would proudly say, “why yes we do ___________” All Christians should.

But if it helps, I have NEVER been confused as to your intent. You have always been inquiring and interesting in examining the differences but in no way have I ever considered any of your posts “anti” anything. Do we disagree at times? Yes. But I have NEVER mistook your disagreement for unreasoned anti-catolicism.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[rr1213]

Yes it would be nice if people were to always assume the best about people. Especially in this type of forum when “tone” is so hard to “hear”. And it would be nice if everyone would assume the best of even the most ignorant who come hear with the tradional “anti-Catholic” rhetoric. Assume that they are ignorant and capable of “hearing” the truth of the teachings of the Catholic Church, no matter how many times it must be explained.

In my mind, someone is not “anti-Catholic” until they hear what Catholics say we believe and the response is “Yes you do worship Mary (gotten rid of a commandment, have extra books in the Bible etc.)” after well reasoned response on why these things just are not true. And even then, we should TRY to keep our tempers, although I believe we have all failed on this one.

You would think that if “everyone” knew these things about the Catholic Church and we actually taught these things, we would proudly say, “why yes we do ___________” All Christians should.

But if it helps, I have NEVER been confused as to your intent. You have always been inquiring and interesting in examining the differences but in no way have I ever considered any of your posts “anti” anything. Do we disagree at times? Yes. But I have NEVER mistook your disagreement for unreasoned anti-catolicism.

God Bless,
Maria

Maria, I think that your post above is generally correct. The only caveat I would raise regards your suggestion that to continue to disagree with Catholic teaching after being offered a “well reasoned response” regarding the nature of Catholic teachings, makes one “anti-Catholic”. Not all disagreements between Catholics and Protestants can be reduced to misconceptions by one or the other of the other’s doctrine. Yes, this is much of the problem. Still, even when we understand each other perfectly well there remains areas of disagreement. The existence of such disagreement does not necessarily make one “anti-Catholic” or “anti-Protestant” but, merely, Protestant or Catholic.

 

[MariaG]

Maria, I think that your post above is generally correct. The only caveat I would raise regards your suggestion that to continue to disagree with Catholic teaching after being offered a “well reasoned response” regarding the nature of Catholic teachings, makes one “anti-Catholic”. Not all disagreements between Catholics and Protestants can be reduced to misconceptions by one or the other of the other’s doctrine. Yes, this is much of the problem. Still, even when we understand each other perfectly well there remains areas of disagreement. The existence of such disagreement does not necessarily make one “anti-Catholic” or “anti-Protestant” but, merely, Protestant or Catholic.

Absolutely. I tried to make it clear, (obviously didn’t) that there is a difference between those like Syele who may disagree but are usually disagreeing on interpretation of scripture, or those who do not see the distinction between things like worship and devotion but allow that Catholics say it exists. Or even those who honestly think that the distinction is not big enough and encourages Mary Worship.

Then there are those who willfully continue to believe that Catholics teach things like Mary Worship no matter how many times we show that we don’t.

God Bless,
Maria

ps. And even then, I have to say, I do not easily throw out that “anti-Catholic” label since I feel that some honestly believe that I am being decieved by Satan and are trying to save my soul. They may not “hear” the explanations but are not “anti” anything except maybe “anti” Satan.