Mary- other children

[MaggieOH]

2Cor6:16,Rom8:9,8:10,Jn 15:4,Jn17:23,17:26,2Cor13:5,Gal2:20,
Gal 4:19,Col1:271Ptr3:151Jn4:12,1Jn14:15,1Jn4:4

Do you know what is meant by “The New Covenant”? In other words who is the New Covenant?

I will give you a hint. Please read the following passages so that you will be enlightened:

Matt 26:26-29
Mark 14: 22-25
Luke 22: 19-20

Once you have grasped who it is, then ask yourself another question:

Who carried the New Covenant in her womb for 9 months of gestation?

I can assure you that this is what is meant when through a reading of Scripture Mary is recognized by the early Church Fathers as the Ark of the New Covenant.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

Xavier:

Thank you for correcting my spelling.
Acts7:48, Acts17:24.1King8:27

2Cor6:16,Rom8:9,8:10,Jn 15:4,Jn17:23,17:26,2Cor13:5,Gal2:20,
Gal 4:19,Col1:271Ptr3:151Jn4:12,1Jn14:15,1Jn4:4

Your quotes have nothing to do with the Ark of the New Covenant. You are confusing the Holy Spirit with the Son of God, who is the Word made Flesh.

Maggie

 

[Xavier]

MaggieOH:

Do you know what is meant by “The New Covenant”? In other words who is the New Covenant?

I will give you a hint. Please read the following passages so that you will be enlightened:

Matt 26:26-29
Mark 14: 22-25
Luke 22: 19-20

Once you have grasped who it is, then ask yourself another question:

Who carried the New Covenant in her womb for 9 months of gestation?

I can assure you that this is what is meant when through a reading of Scripture Mary is recognized by the early Church Fathers as the Ark of the New Covenant.

MaggieOH

Gee Maggie let me say this,
Jeremiah 31:
**31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, F23 says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Gods covenant is written in the believers hearts–are you a believer?
and placed in their minds. We are the Arc of the new Covenant. The triune God dwells within us Father Son and Spirit. that is what my references speak.
Mary said yes to God when asked to carry the Messiah. many of us are asked to carry Him and we do not, we would rather make an idol of Mary and place her before and above the living God. The God that lives within our hearts.

 

[Benadam]

Xavier:

Gods covenant is written in the believers hearts–are you a believer?
and placed in their minds. We are the Arc of the new Covenant. The triune God dwells within us Father Son and Spirit. that is what my references speak.
Mary said yes to God when asked to carry the Messiah. many of us are asked to carry Him and we do not, we would rather make an idol of Mary and place her before and above the living God. The God that lives within our hearts.

Xavier, in order to be sincere, you must give substantial objections to the evidence contrary to your view. There has been substantial biblical evidence presented that would be considered good reason to discount your position.

Unless you are able to acknowledge the evidence and present a substantial objection your accusations of idolatry are stones that fall on your own head. I know you are astute eneogh to recognize when evasive means are employed in a debate. To avoid the truth is an act that serves an idol.

 

[Xavier]

Benadam:

Xavier, in order to be sincere, you must give substantial objections to the evidence contrary to your view. There has been substantial biblical evidence presented that would be considered good reason to discount your position.

Unless you are able to acknowledge the evidence and present a substantial objection your accusations of idolatry are stones that fall on your own head. I know you are astute eneogh to recognize when evasive means are employed in a debate. To avoid the truth is an act that serves an idol.

Have i not presented evidence (scripture) to substantiate my postition?

 

[MaggieOH]

Heb 13:4 - Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

you are missing the point about what I am saying regarding lust. A marriage bed can be defiled if a husband does not respect his wife and demands that she gives him what he wants. That is where there is a problem. To this statement I will add that this is a two way street and can apply to a wife as well. It boils down to having an incredibly selfish attitude towards one’s partner that is neither healthy nor sacred. Otherwise your quote is out of context to this discussion.

My point is exactly that-----Catholics have a necessity for this doctrine thus their theologey is driven by necessity not truth.

so you believe that it is not necessary to show that it is not possible for Jesus to be anything other than conceived by the Holy Spirit… how interesting… … does that mean that you actually believe that Jesus is the Messiah? That Jesus is the Son of the Ever-Living God?

Ya know if Mary had other children that would mean that Mary and Joseph might have concoted their story in order to hide the real reason that she became pregnant. If that was the case then Christianity is a lie…

What vow of virginity?

I take it that your bible has Luke’s Gospel. Then take a look at the first chapter. Mary asks the angel “How can that be because I do not know man”. Now that does not sound right for a young woman who has entered a covenantal agreement because that agreement is one that means that she should have children. Yet Mary asks this question. This indicates that she had a vow of virginity. Then you have to ask yourself why did Joseph wrestle so hard with the fact that Mary was pregnant? It is because he knew of the vow, and he could not understand how it had been broken. He did not want to have Mary shamed and publicly stoned to death.

Temple prostitutes, rampant homosexuality, adultary with your stepmother [Corithians]. I think they had their sexual hangups.

wrong again pal. Corinthians is referring to the pagans and not the Jews in Jerusalem. All of these things were the behaviours of the pagans in Corinth, which was a seaport and like any seaport it had its seedy characters. The Christians in Corinth had supposedly moved away from those behaviours.

So no, as far as the Christians and Jews were concerned there were no hang ups. On the other hand we do have a hang up to the point that many have the inability to believe that it is possible for anyone to remain a virgin at least until marriage. In fact we are so hung up that young men and women who are virgins become the butt of jokes from others.

In other words we could learn a lot from the chastity of Mary and Joseph as well as from Jesus and St. Paul.

The hang up exists for those who see only the intimate side of marriage and do not comprehend the companionship and love that can grow between two people without that extra form of intimacy.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Xavier:

Have i not presented evidence (scripture) to substantiate my postition?

only what is out of context and does not apply as you continue to stay off topic.

How many times do I have to ask that if you want to make your claims start a new topic to address them.

Maggie

 

[John1717]

Church Militant:

This is typically called “The Great Apostasy” theory (generally espoused by JWs, SDA, and Pentecostals) and has no historical basis in fact whatsoever. The early church always responded to heresy and apostasy as is documented many many times in their writings, yet there is absolutely no evidence that the things the Catholic Church teaches ever came under such condemnation. In fact the writings of the early church fathers unanimously show that what they believed was indeed Catholic…like the Eucharist, apostolic succession, and others. Dishonest anti-Catholic scholars use edited histories and false accusations to disparage the Catholic Church. I find it hard to understand how anyone can accuse us of following the traditions and teachings of men when they do it with their preachers all the time. Just because some preacher mounts his pulpit and says that something is so they accept it as if it’s Gospel. I also fail to understand why others cannot simply preach their “Gospel message” without disparaging other religions. Will their Gospel not stand without their attacks on other people? If not I would find those messages very seriously flawed. I will also point out that I have never heard such coming from the homilies in any Catholic Church I have ever attended. (Thanks Be To God!)

**Here we go again! Must you always appeal to the church “fathers” to support your church’s unbiblical teachings? There are “fathers” on both sides of each issue so this isn’t as helpful as you suggest. These men were not infailible nor did they speak for God, so get off it! It appears that you do not believe that the bible is the word of God because you elevate your tradition above it! **

**All anyone has to do is compare Catholic teaching with what is contained in the New Testament. If someone who did not have prior devotion to Catholicism, were to read the bible, he would never come up with Catholicism! Where in the bible do you find priests offering sacrifices for sins, clergy forbidden to marry, infallible men, purgatory, indulgences, Mary worship, holy water, statues, etc. Instead, you find numerous warnings against false teachers who would introduce destructive heresies and lead people away from Gospel truth. **

---

---

Is everyone who does not agree with Catholic teaching labled by you as" Dishonest and anti-Catholic?" Can’t someone disagree because they sincerely believe that what the Catholic Church teaches is not true? It seems that must resort to name calling rather than adequately defending your beliefs! Is it so hard to believe that some “Protestants” could be truly concerned with your eternal destiny?

Do you even know what the Gospel is??? Please tell me "the Good News"

After you reply, could we please get back to the topic of this thread?

 

[MaggieOH]

Xavier:

Gee Maggie let me say this,
Jeremiah 31:
***31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- ***32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, F23 says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Gods covenant is written in the believers hearts–are you a believer?

first of all you are quoting totally out of context here with your quote from Jeremiah. This is a prophecy that points to the coming of Jesus Christ and the era of grace. It does not answer my question to you. That is one that you have not addressed properly but have used whatever document you have been given as a proof text of your position. Hence you are using your proof text out of context and have disproved nothing.

Then you add an insult by asking if I am a believer. I am a God-fearing Catholic. I love my God. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and that I have been redeemed. I believe that God can offer me the free gift of grace and that he urges me, through grace to do His Will. Can you say the same or do you just pay lip service by saying “I believe” and “Lord Lord”?

and placed in their minds. We are the ark of the new Covenant.

Please note that I have had to correct your horrendous spelling error again.

No we are not the Ark of the New Covenant. Please read the following from the Book of Revelation:

“Then the sanctuary of God in Heaven opened, and the Ark of the Covenant could be seen inside it…” (Rev 11:19)

Few Evangelicals will address the meaning of this verse. But one thing is for sure, it negates your notion that “we are the ark of the covenant”.

The triune God dwells within us Father Son and Spirit. that is what my references speak.

You are using Jeremiah to claim that we are the ark of the covenant and that it is Father, Son and Holy Spirit that dwells within? What about using the New Testament Scriptures where this error is denied?

We are the sons and daughters of God, not because we say we believe but because we have died to sin through Baptism

This kind of twisting of Scripture is truly outrageous. What an effort to deny that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant because it is she who bore Jesus in Her womb. Not you or me. We are filled with God’s Grace but we do not and cannot physically bear the Christ, who is the New Covenant in His Blood. Talk about convoluted reasoning !!

Mary said yes to God when asked to carry the Messiah. many of us are asked to carry Him and we do not, we would rather make an idol of Mary and place her before and above the living God. The God that lives within our hearts.

What on earth are you saying here

Mary was asked to physically carry Jesus in her womb. We are not asked to carry Jesus. We who are filled with the grace of God are asked to pick up our cross and follow Him.

How can you call yourself a Christian when you lie about Catholics so readily?

Maggie

 

[john_ennis]

** Where in the bible do you find **
priests offering sacrifices for sins, clergy forbidden to marry, infallible men, purgatory, indulgences, Mary worship, holy water, statues, etc.

So glad you asked. “Thou art Kepha.” Don’t explain it away, and you’re on your way Home.

Peace.
John

Oh, except for Mary worship. If anybody’s doing that, I can’t answer for them. Show me where in Catholic teaching we’re told to honor His mother more than He Himself does, and I will fly to Rome right now demanding an explanation.
peace always.

 

[MaggieOH]

**Here we go again! Must you always appeal to the church “fathers” to support your church’s unbiblical teachings? There are “fathers” on both sides of each issue so this isn’t as helpful as you suggest. These men were not infailible nor did they speak for God, so get off it! It appears that you do not believe that the bible is the word of God because you elevate your tradition above it! **

this is off-topic. If you want to discuss these points please start another thread. I will be more than happy to engage you on some of the points that you have raised, especially the point about fathers on both sides. It is a little lopsided I think.

Maggie

 

[John1717]

MaggieOH:

Then you add an insult by asking if I am a believer. I am a God-fearing Catholic. I love my God. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and that I have been redeemed. I believe that God can offer me the free gift of grace and that he urges me, through grace to do His Will. Can you say the same or do you just pay lip service by saying “I believe” and “Lord Lord”?

**First of all let me say that I do not know you nor do I presume to know your heart, so I cannot say if you are a believer or not. Only God can judge your heart. That being said, being a God-fearing Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist etc. does not mean you are a true believer! You stated, “**I believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and that I have been redeemed” **My question is do you trust in Christ Alone for your salvation or do you also need the Church, the Sacraments, Mary and your good works? If this is the case then you need to re-examine your faith and discover what Jesus taught as necessary for eternal life. **

Just what die Jesus accomplish by His death on the cross?

 

[Benadam]

Xavier:

Have i not presented evidence (scripture) to substantiate my postition?

yes, and it was respected with a response directly. I dignified it with an objection that included a stated reason. I followed that objection with a substantial amount of biblical evidence that included sound and reasonable reasons for it’s application to my objection. After your arguement was dutifully dignified you accused me of idolatry again. I am not putting anything before the image of God but I would suggest you scroll back and see if you have. I hope my arguement can be given the same dignity yours has recieved. Now, if you would do that , we can have a sincere exchange of ideas without having to point out any hidden idols being served.

 

[John1717]

john ennis:

So glad you asked. “Thou art Kepha.” Don’t explain it away, and you’re on your way Home.

Peace.
John

Oh, except for Mary worship. If anybody’s doing that, I can’t answer for them. Show me where in Catholic teaching we’re told to honor His mother more than He Himself does, and I will fly to Rome right now demanding an explanation.
peace always.

In Matthew 16:18 Jesus said, “Thou art Peter (petros, a stone) and upon this(taute, Peters statement of faith, “Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God”)* rock* (petra, a huge rock foundation) I will build my Church”. According to Catholic teaching, this verse proves that Peter was the head of the church and its’ first pope, but is this true. As you know, the New Testament was written in Greek. The Greek words petros (Peter or stone), **petra **(rock, a huge rock foundation) and taute (Peter’s statement of faith-“Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”) are used. Peter is a stone and Jesus is the rock foundation. Jesus was not referring to Peter when He said, *“*and upon this rock I will build my church” He was referring to Peters’ statement of faith. Reading the entire passage (Matthew 16:13-20) in context reveals that the subject is Jesus not Peter. In Matthew 16:13 Jesus asks, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” Then in verse 15 Jesus asks, “But what about you…Who do you say that I am?” In verse 16 Peter makes his statement of faith; “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” In verse 17 Jesus replies, “Blessed are you Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven” As can be plainly seen, Jesus Christ is the foundation of the true Church! 1 Corinthians 3:11 states,“*For no one can lay any foundation ***other than the one laid, which is Christ Jesus.” The true Church is built on Jesus not Peter! Read 1 Corinthians 10:4, Ephesians 1:22-23, and 2:20.

As for Mary worship, have you ever attended a “May Crowning?” If thats not worship then nothing is! Just because the Catholic Church doesn’t “officially” teach Mary worship, it doesn’t mean it isn’t practiced by Catholics! Have you ever seen pilgrims traveling to Lourdes, Fatima or Guadalupe? If thats not worship, what is??? :bowdown2:

 

[john_ennis]

**“*For no one can lay any foundation ***other than the one laid, which is Christ Jesus.” The true Church is built on Jesus not Peter! Read 1 Corinthians 10:4, Ephesians 1:22-23, and 2:20.

As for Mary worship, have you ever attended a “May Crowning?” If thats not worship then nothing is! Just because the Catholic Church doesn’t “officially” teach Mary worship, it doesn’t mean it isn’t practiced by Catholics! Have you ever seen pilgrims traveling to Lourdes, Fatima or Guadalupe? If thats not worship, what is??? :bowdown2:

Ah. You are incorrect in your assertion that Petros, in first century Greek, means small stone. There is no such usage. (I think lithos would have been used). In any case, Kepha is the Aramaic word which Jesus used; we know this because Paul’s letters use that word to refer to Peter.
I will simply add to that that you seem to believe your take on “Petros” is infallible. You can ask me the same question, but before you do, I would like to hear your answer.

Lastly, Lourdes, Fatima, et al, are found…where now in the Catholic Catechism? Besides, believing Mary appeared, and honoring her–it ain’t worship. Neither is the crowning. Christ made her Queen, I didn’t.
All your assertions of worshiping Mary rely on your being able to read people’s hearts, have you noticed that?

Peace, as always.
John

 

[MaggieOH]

John1717:

MaggieOH:

Then you add an insult by asking if I am a believer. I am a God-fearing Catholic. I love my God. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and that I have been redeemed. I believe that God can offer me the free gift of grace and that he urges me, through grace to do His Will. Can you say the same or do you just pay lip service by saying “I believe” and “Lord Lord”?

First of all let me say that I do not know you nor do I presume to know your heart, so I cannot say if you are a believer or not. Only God can judge your heart. That being said, being a God-fearing Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist etc. does not mean you are a true believer! You stated, "

I believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and that I have been redeemed" **My question is do you trust in Christ Alone for your salvation or do you also need the Church, the Sacraments, Mary and your good works? If this is the case then you need to re-examine your faith and discover what Jesus taught as necessary for eternal life. **

Just what die Jesus accomplish by His death on the cross?

This is off topic. If you want to discuss these points then please start a new thread where they can be discussed.

Maggie

 

[Benadam]

**If someone who did not have prior devotion to Catholicism, were to read the bible, he would never come up with Catholicism! **

Oh contrare my friend. I was born into Catholicism but like many who grow up in difficult family circumstances I rebelled against the moral authority of my parents and it’s source the Catholic Church.

When I say rebelled I mean I rebelled. Spiritual rebellion to the extreme of practicing witchcraft. Yes, I performed rituals did spells meditated on runes, the whole real and wicked thing.

By the Grace of God I saw the evil of witchcraft and a few years later some painfull events that I suffered resulted in a contemplative experience that brought a heightened awareness about myswelf and fellow man. I began seeking validation for what was happening to me in various books and eventually started reading the bible. That’s when it got crazy. I was learning things about what it revealed about Christ from 'His" perspective because of the nature of the painfull events I mentioned. I thought I was going nuts because I was thinking this is stuff the world should know about! I thought I was going nuts or discovering a new revelation of some sort. So funny, because later I came to find out that the ‘new’ stuff I was figuring out was already taught in the Catholic Church.

So, I’m a living case of someone being lead to some of the deeper understandings of the Catholic Church by the bible not visa versa.

 

[MaggieOH]

John1717:

In Matthew 16:18 Jesus said, “Thou art Peter**(petros, a stone)** and upon this(taute, Peters statement of faith, “Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God”)* rock*(petra, a huge rock foundation) I will build my Church”. According to Catholic teaching, this verse proves that Peter was the head of the church and its’ first pope, but is this true. As you know, the New Testament was written in Greek. The Greek words petros (Peter or stone), **petra **(rock, a huge rock foundation) and taute (Peter’s statement of faith-“Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”) are used. Peter is a stone and Jesus is the rock foundation. Jesus was not referring to Peter when He said, *“**and upon this rock **I will build my church” He was referring to Peters’ statement of faith. Reading the entire passage (Matthew 16:13-20) in context reveals that the subject is Jesus not Peter. In Matthew 16:13 Jesus asks, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” Then in verse 15 Jesus asks, **“But what about you…Who do you say that I am?”*In verse 16 Peter makes his statement of faith; “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”In verse 17 Jesus replies, “Blessed are you Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven” As can be plainly seen, Jesus Christ is the foundation of the true Church! 1 Corinthians 3:11 states,“*For no one can lay any foundation ***other than the one laid, which is Christ Jesus.” The true Church is built on Jesus not Peter! Read 1 Corinthians 10:4, Ephesians 1:22-23, and 2:20.

As for Mary worship, have you ever attended a “May Crowning?” If thats not worship then nothing is! Just because the Catholic Church doesn’t “officially” teach Mary worship, it doesn’t mean it isn’t practiced by Catholics! Have you ever seen pilgrims traveling to Lourdes, Fatima or Guadalupe? If thats not worship, what is??? :bowdown2:

This is off topic since you are addressing a separate issue. If you want to start a new thread setting out your allegations then we will be happy to respond in that thread but not here.

Maggie

 

[Benadam]

**
**

All anyone has to do is compare Catholic teaching with what is contained in the New Testament.

**
Can you authenticate your enterpretation of what the New Testament contains?

---

**Where in the bible do you find **

priests offering sacrifices for sins,

I’ll take that as a joke.

]**Is everyone who does not agree with Catholic teaching labled by you as" **

Dishonest and anti-Catholic?"

words like ‘all’ ‘everyone’ ‘never’ ‘always’ usually indicate the kind of misjudgement that occurs when the emotions rise up and usurp the authority of reason.

**

**
****Can’t someone disagree because they sincerely believe that what the Catholic Church teaches is not true? ****

sure if there can also be a sincere exchage of ideas that are mutually respected.

It seems that must resort to name calling rather than adequately defending your beliefs! Is it so hard to believe that some “Protestants” could be truly concerned with your eternal destiny?

I think calling my faith idolatry cuts it to the chase, especially when the accuser refuses to dignify the evidense of defense with a response directed at it’s meaning as a defense. What would you think if I told you I thought your faith was a paganized form of christianity permeated with gnostic notions of ‘special knowledge’ and new age mantras like “In Jesus Name! I rebuke you!”

If I did you might say:

Do you even know what the Gospel is??? Please tell me "the Good News"

After you reply, could we please get back to the topic of this thread?

 

[John1717]

john ennis:

Ah. You are incorrect in your assertion that Petros, in first century Greek, means small stone. There is no such usage. (I think lithos would have been used). In any case, Kepha is the Aramaic word which Jesus used; we know this because Paul’s letters use that word to refer to Peter.
I will simply add to that that you seem to believe your take on “Petros” is infallible. You can ask me the same question, but before you do, I would like to hear your answer.

*Sorry friend but the New Testament was written in Greek and any Greek scholar will tell you the terms petros and Petra are used *in this passage. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit made a mistake when He inspired the Apostles to use the words and language they used to write the New Testament?

Lastly, Lourdes, Fatima, et al, are found…where now in the Catholic Catechism? Besides, believing Mary appeared, and honoring her–it ain’t worship. Neither is the crowning. Christ made her Queen, I didn’t.

Please enlighten me, where in Scripture do you find Christ making Mary Queen? As for not worshiping Mary, I believe you are confused as to what worship is!

---

All your assertions of worshiping Mary rely on your being able to read people’s hearts, have you noticed that?

As I said above, you are ignorant as to what worship is!

Peace, as always.
John