Mary- other children

[hlgomez]

Some reasons why we must reject the Apocrypha as being part of canon of Scripture are:

It is not included in the Hebrew canon of Scripture.

The Apocryphal writers sometimes disclaim divine inspiration. For example, in 2 Maccabees 15:38,39 CT, we read, "So these things being done with relation to Nicanor and from that time the city being possessed by the Hebrews, I also will here make an end of my narration. Which if I have done well and as it becometh the history, it is what I desired: but if not so perfectly, it must be pardoned me."

“In all of the New Testament there is not even one single reference or quotation, made by Christ or any of the Apostles, that would confirm all or any part of the Apocrypha as being divinely inspired.”

In 2 Machabees (another spelling) 12:43-46, we have the reference cited by the Catholic Church to support Purgatory. If one would read verses 40 through 46, he would learn that God killed these people because of idolatry. According to Catholicism, if you die in the state of mortal sin, which idolatry is, you’ll go straight to Hell when you die! Therefore, according to Catholic doctrine, Judas Machabeus was WRONG in suggesting that the people should “pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins” (verse 46)!

For a person to believe in the doctrine of Purgatory, he/she would have to be totally misinformed about the Biblical doctrines of the Atonement, Redemption and even Salvation. Purgatory infers works for salvation, a soul-damning and devilish teaching. Augustine said, “there are some who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness.” This statement infers works for salvation which is refuted by Eph. 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; Rom. 4:4-6 and 2 Tim. 1:9.

The Apocryphal books, which include 2 Maccabees, are NOT from God, NOT inspired and MUST NOT be placed on the same level of authority as Holy Writ.

I hope this helps.

John1717,

As St. Augustine(?) said referring to the Canon of Scriptures: “Who do you think you should believe? The Jews or the Christians?” The complete Canon of Scriptures had been there for so many centuries and was believed and accepted by Christians. And then here comes Luther in the 16th century and removes the Books from Sacred Scriptures because those Sacred Books primarily contradicted his twisted doctrines. By what authority did he removed those Sacred Books? And you are fooled to believe him? The Book of Revelation clearly estates that NO ONE should remove the Books from the Bible. Who do you choose to believe, Sacred Scriptures or Luther?

Pio

 

[Tantum_ergo]

My understanding of Mary comes from 47 years in the Catholic faith, with twelve of those year’s being in Catholic schools!

And the nuns would be the first to point out that you misused the apostrophe. . .but I digress from the point I wish to make.

It would not matter if you had spent 470 years in the Catholic faith and 120 years in Catholic schools. Your faith is not just the sum total of what is taught to you, but includes what you yourself take from what is taught.

You could have been taught by the angels above, but since you yourself made the choice that you did not believe X, in favor of belief in Y, I hope that you aren’t going to try to say that it was because those who taught you X didn’t do their job well enough, or that those who taught Y were “better teachers”. Even if it were the case, that is only one factor in your decision, and you know it.

Even 10,000 difficulties do not add up to one doubt, when it comes to faith.

Faith is a gift which can be accepted or rejected. You choose to reject the one, true, Catholic and apostolic faith in favor of something which in your personal opinion was “better” for you. That’s between you and God ultimately. Maybe it makes you feel better about your choice to disparge and insult your “former faith”? But how can you reconcile that with the Christian behavior asked of you right there in Scripture?

Where you cross the line is in attempting to impugn our faith in order to “stoke yourself up”, to present us as “losers” and yourself as a “winner” and in doing so outright lie about Catholic beliefs. If you are a baptized Catholic, you should be ashamed of your lies and apostacy. If you’re not Catholic but are presenting yourself as one, you have that lie in addition on your conscience.

I will pray for you.

 

[sfp]

Big difference between apocrypha and deuterocanonical books, John.

Maccabees is not part of the apocrypha, since it was canonized and considered to be inspired by all Christians until good ole M.L. decided to take it out (didn’t jive with his theology, so he had to). M.L. also tried to remove several of the other books…I guess you would have followed suit if he removed the book of James, too, huh?

 

[hlgomez]

**
****The problem is, Catholics have made God too small! You believe that mere men have the power to call the Creator of the Universe out of heaven, place Him on an altar and re-present Him as a sacrifice again and again, thousands of times each day. Then you actually believe that you can eat God! You have a very small God indeed!!! ****

John1717,

Again John, tsk, tsk… I’m very sorry for you. How I wish you could have listen to your teachers in you many years in the Catholic schools.

But anyways, here comes another twisted interpretation by your fellow protesters about Catholic doctrine and sadly you adopt their interpretations. The sacrifice of the Mass is NOT a re-sacrificing of Christ but perpetuating. It is THE SAME SACRIFICE that is perpetuated for eternity. Have you ever wondered how humble God is that He made Himself substantially present in that little white host and be partakened by His people? Early Christians has left us evidence of their belief in the Real Presence, and now you follow this 16th century novel about the Eucharist by making it only a symbol?

If it’s a symbol, then Christ would have said it in the first place! But no, He did say “This is my Body… This is my Blood…” And Paul reaffirmed it in his epistles:

“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.”(1 Cor. 10:16-17)

"For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, ‘This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.’ For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord."(1 Cor. 11:23-27)

We have so many Patristic (early Christian writers) evidence in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist but it’s just too many to post them here. But you can see for yourself by going to www.therealpresence.org

Pio
**

 

[hlgomez]

**

**The problem is, Catholics have made God too small! You believe that mere men have the power to call the Creator of the Universe out of heaven, place Him on an altar and re-present Him as a sacrifice again and again, thousands of times each day. **

John 1717,

Do you believe in the prophecies in the Bible? I surely think that you do since you are committed to the Word of God in Scriptures.

As a fulfillment of the prophecy you just mentioned, here is what has been said by the prophet Malachi.

“For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.” (Mal. 1:11)(KJV)

“But my name is honored by people of other nations from morning till night. All around the world they offer sweet incense and pure offerings in honor of my name. For my name is great among the nations,” says the LORD Almighty."(NLT)

“For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.” (DRB)

The Sacrifice of the Mass is the fulfillment of this prophecy.

Pio

**

 

[sfp]

A sincere apologist “ASKS” others what they believe, not “TELLS” them what they believe.

John, you are arrogant and out of line trying to tell “US” what “WE” believe. (and you’re dead wrong, but then again you don’t care what we say we believe, you just try to accuse us of the inacurate rumors and myths).

btw, You never answered my question…
IF you were wrong about the Blessed Mother, would you want to know it??

If the answer is not YES, then you are not searching for the truth, you are just interested in trying to prove others wrong. This keeps you in bondage to all the myths you’ve bought into.

 

[sfp]

You may have unlimited time but I do not!

Cop-out, John. You’ve already replied to many posts since then. You just avoid the ones that are difficult or impossible to give a reasonable answer.

Do you know who defined which books were to be considered inspired and included in the Bible?

 

[reggie]

John1717,

How is it that you think that we have made God small?

It is your beliefs that belittle God.

We know Him to be the one true God that can do anything for He is the source of all life and creation.

He became man by humbling Himself and entering this world as all men have. He humbled Himself to be an embryo, a fetus and then an infant., a boy, and eventually a Man who suffered, died and was buried. It was not just the human Jesus who was those things, it was also the divine.

He can preserve someone from Original sin, if it is His will.

He can then take that person body and soul into heaven if it is His will.

He can send the Holy Spirit upon bread and wine so that they become His body, blood, soul and divinity if it is His will.

He can do whatever it is His will to do.

Protestants are the ones who want to remake God in their image.
They are the ones who deny that all of these great things God has done are possible.

Our God is not in a box where we can ascribe to Him only those things that we find agreeable or reasonable. Our God is an infinite God who has made Himself known to us in His way, not ours.

We are not the ones who believe that Jesus’s life, death and resurrection were a once and only thing. We believe that they are eternal and made present for all ages through the Grace of God poured out upon us through the Church.

You seem to be very hostile to the people on this forum. I don’t believe that it is because you care about our souls but that you have a need to be right. It is a normal thing for “ex-catholics” to be this way, but I thing you should take some time to reflect on the reason that you are here and what you hope to accomplish with your posts.

These are good people here. You must remember that this is a Catholic forum and the Catholics here are devout and loyal. We are not ill-informed. All of your “insights” are old news to most of us. We have rejected your positions in light of Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium. We reject your postulations because we know that after two thousand years of history, there is nothing new you can present to us. We reject your Bible because it is not the Bible of our ancestors but of a poor misguided self defeated man who never trusted God but listened instead to the devils in his head.

The strong in faith and knowledge here will not succumb to your superficial and lame interpretations of Scripture. If it is your intention to create doubt in the weakest of us, then you should be ashamed for wanting to draw people to the empty shell of your religion.

 

[mark_a]

Seems like John1717 has an ax to grind.

 

[fullhouse]

I do it in Layman’s terms… If you were chosen to give birth to the Lord’s son… How easily would it be for you to give your life to Him and Not be an “ordinary wife”? How could she NOT give her life to Him after she had given birth to our Savior?

 

[sfp]

reggie:

John1717, …

EXCELLENT reply, Mark!! (entire reply)

 

[MaggieOH]

John1717:

For a person to believe in the doctrine of Purgatory, he/she would have to be totally misinformed about the Biblical doctrines of the Atonement, Redemption and even Salvation. Purgatory infers works for salvation, a soul-damning and devilish teaching.

we are getting off the topic of the thread but I will attempt to answer your misstatements in light of the truth that comes from all dogma that refers to Mary and Jesus Christ.

First of all, you are misinformed about the nature of Purgatory and your new teachers have misinformed you about the Scriptural meaning of works.

In Scripture there are two types of “works”.

1. Works of the Law - Mosaic laws and precepts fall into this category.
2. Works that are our deeds - these deeds might be wicked or they might be good.

It is belief in type 1 works that is an indication that someone does not understand the role of Christ’s redemption in our Salvation History. These are the types of things that can be referred to as second generation laws. There are some denominations today that insist upon adherence to these second generation laws, for example an insistence upon demanding that people do not shop on Sundays, this is a second generation law. Other examples include: ban on drinking alcohol, smoking tobacco, women wearing pants, rock music, television, and in extreme cases the ban on the use of anything that is modern including electricity and cars.

Type 2, on the other hand is that which comes from the heart. If we truly have faith and are blessed by the grace of God, then we will desire to do everything that is following the example of Jesus Christ.

In the case of Mary, who is the Mother of the Messiah, she was given the gift of grace even whilst she was in the womb. This is the same gift that was given to Jeremiah:

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
before you came to birth, I consecrated you” (Jer 1:5)

The calling of Jeremiah to be a prophet to the nations is a precursor of the calling of Mary to be the Mother of the Messiah. This is her calling and she received God’s grace to fulfill that calling. Hence she desired all her life to know and be with God. It was through Her faith, strengthened by the shower of God’s grace that Mary was able to say YES to the angel and do the will of God.

On the other hand, therefore, those who turn their backs on God and perform evil deeds are indeed doing that which will bring about punishment from God.

The Old Testament relates Salvation history from the point of view that the people were being called by God, but they were being pulled towards being in league with Satan. When they forgot God and followed the pagans, they were punished. That is what a part of the story of the Maccabees is relating to us. It is in fact a reminder to not turn our backs on God.

Why Purgatory? Well I see it as a trip to the beauty parlour that is necessary before entering heaven. Purgatory is not a doctrine of the devil because that final purgation before entering the Kingdom of Heaven is something that we can rejoice about. It means that we will enter into Heaven once we have a final purification.

Some people do not need that final purification because they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb through their martyrdom. Mary, who is a special case did not have to suffer martyrdom because as the Mother of the Messiah she had already suffered much on earth. Her reward for doing the will of God, because of her faith, is that of Eternal Life as the Queen of Heaven for Her Son who is King of kings.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

reggie:

John1717,

How is it that you think that we have made God small?

It is your beliefs that belittle God.

We know Him to be the one true God that can do anything for He is the source of all life and creation.

He became man by humbling Himself and entering this world as all men have. He humbled Himself to be an embryo, a fetus and then an infant., a boy, and eventually a Man who suffered, died and was buried. It was not just the human Jesus who was those things, it was also the divine.

He can preserve someone from Original sin, if it is His will.

He can then take that person body and soul into heaven if it is His will.

He can send the Holy Spirit upon bread and wine so that they become His body, blood, soul and divinity if it is His will.

He can do whatever it is His will to do.

Protestants are the ones who want to remake God in their image.
They are the ones who deny that all of these great things God has done are possible.

Our God is not in a box where we can ascribe to Him only those things that we find agreeable or reasonable. Our God is an infinite God who has made Himself known to us in His way, not ours.

We are not the ones who believe that Jesus’s life, death and resurrection were a once and only thing. We believe that they are eternal and made present for all ages through the Grace of God poured out upon us through the Church.

You seem to be very hostile to the people on this forum. I don’t believe that it is because you care about our souls but that you have a need to be right. It is a normal thing for “ex-catholics” to be this way, but I thing you should take some time to reflect on the reason that you are here and what you hope to accomplish with your posts.

These are good people here. You must remember that this is a Catholic forum and the Catholics here are devout and loyal. We are not ill-informed. All of your “insights” are old news to most of us. We have rejected your positions in light of Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium. We reject your postulations because we know that after two thousand years of history, there is nothing new you can present to us. We reject your Bible because it is not the Bible of our ancestors but of a poor misguided self defeated man who never trusted God but listened instead to the devils in his head.

The strong in faith and knowledge here will not succumb to your superficial and lame interpretations of Scripture. If it is your intention to create doubt in the weakest of us, then you should be ashamed for wanting to draw people to the empty shell of your religion.

This is so very well stated. So much better than anything that I can say.

Maggie

 

[Tmaque]

John1717:

Some reasons why we must reject the Apocrypha as being part of canon of Scripture are:

It is not included in the Hebrew canon of Scripture.

The Apocryphal writers sometimes disclaim divine inspiration. For example, in 2 Maccabees 15:38,39 CT, we read, "So these things being done with relation to Nicanor and from that time the city being possessed by the Hebrews, I also will here make an end of my narration. Which if I have done well and as it becometh the history, it is what I desired: but if not so perfectly, it must be pardoned me."

“In all of the New Testament there is not even one single reference or quotation, made by Christ or any of the Apostles, that would confirm all or any part of the Apocrypha as being divinely inspired.”

In 2 Machabees (another spelling) 12:43-46, we have the reference cited by the Catholic Church to support Purgatory. If one would read verses 40 through 46, he would learn that God killed these people because of idolatry. According to Catholicism, if you die in the state of mortal sin, which idolatry is, you’ll go straight to Hell when you die! Therefore, according to Catholic doctrine, Judas Machabeus was WRONG in suggesting that the people should “pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins” (verse 46)!

For a person to believe in the doctrine of Purgatory, he/she would have to be totally misinformed about the Biblical doctrines of the Atonement, Redemption and even Salvation. Purgatory infers works for salvation, a soul-damning and devilish teaching. Augustine said, “there are some who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness.” This statement infers works for salvation which is refuted by Eph. 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; Rom. 4:4-6 and 2 Tim. 1:9.

The Apocryphal books, which include 2 Maccabees, are NOT from God, NOT inspired and MUST NOT be placed on the same level of authority as Holy Writ.

I hope this helps.

Then why did Jesus and the Apostles quote from Septuagint profusely??? I’ll use the same OT as Jesus thank you.

 

[MaggieOH]

Tmaque:

Then why did Jesus and the Apostles quote from Septuagint profusely??? I’ll use the same OT as Jesus thank you.

I found a quote from Jesus that is a reference to Maccabees. I know that I posted the quote on another thread.

You are right, I agree, and I will stick to the Septuagint.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

**The problem is, Catholics have made God too small! You believe that mere men have the power to call the Creator of the Universe out of heaven, place Him on an altar and re-present Him as a sacrifice again and again, thousands of times each day. Then you actually believe that you can eat God! You have a very small God indeed!!! **

Poor Nestorius, how I pity the fact that you have allowed yourself to fall into a trap of judging others and not listening to the truth. The Pharisees and the Sadducees did the same to Jesus Christ, and in the end they endured a very severe punishment for their crime when Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans.

Unfortunately the way that you respond to posters makes it very hard to reply to every point that you state. There is one thing that I noticed in your post that made me want to gasp:

you said that “GOD” did not die on the Cross

This is a very Gnostic point of view. It has its roots in the dualism of the Cathars, who are known by a number of names including Albigenses and Paulicians. You see, they could not comprehend that God, who is so perfect could come down from heaven to be made flesh, for according to their belief system is matter and matter is evil.

Nestorius-Arius, Jesus is the Son of God. He is the God-Man. He who is God took on the flesh of man, and that is why Jesus called himself the Son of Man, through His miraculous conception in the womb of Mary and miraculous birth. No ordinary man could have been good enough to become the Lamb of God, the Perfect Sacrifice.

By denying that Mary is the Mother of God, you are denying all other Christian doctines, especially those that apply to Jesus, pointing to Him as the Messiah.

Maggie