Mary- other children

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mark a:
This one just never ends, does it?

Except for the fact that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches could be right about Mary, why does her perpetual virginity cause such commotion?
That is a fine question. To be honest, I don’t really care about Mary’s virginity, but I am curious why Catholics do. I ask myself, “Why do Catholics put so much emphasis on such a relatively superfluous topic as the life of Mary?” There is so much more important stuff to try to get right.
 
ar
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Angainor:
Hmmm:hmmm: … I believe it was the Father Himself who chose to “reduce” His gifts and Mysteries to a human level by sending his only Son to be born as a human, in a stable and laid in a manger.
Are you denying that Jesus is both human and divine? That is the heresy of Nestorius!!
 
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MaggieOH:
If you say that Jesus was born to normal parents, are you saying that you do not believe that Jesus was begotten from the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin?

If that is what you are saying then why do you call yourself a Christian?
OK I misstated that. What I should have said was that Mary traveled to Bethleham on a donkey, was turned away at the inn, and gave birth in a stable. Jesus was born to a normal parent. His other parent was, of course, not normal. He was raised by normal earthly parents.
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MaggieOH:
“Then he led me to the gate which faces the east, and there I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. I heard a sound like the roaring of many waters, and the earth shone with his glory…” (Ezekiel 43:1-2)

“Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary facing the east; but it was closed. He said to me: **This gate is to remain closed; it is not to be opened for anyone to enter by it; since the Lord the God of Israel has entered by it (the gate), it shall remain closed” **(Ezekiel 44:1-2)



In terms of the womb of Mary, this means that her earthly husband is forbidden by the Lord to have sexual relations (enter by the east gate) …
Maggie
You say Mary’s earthly husband was forbidden by the Lord to have sexual relations because no one else is to enter by the east gate. But the east gate is not sexual relations. The Lord the God of Israel did not enter by sexual relations. The Lord the God of Israel entered by the Incarnation, which no one else in existance has entered by. Incarnation is the East Gate.
 
The gospel of pseudo-Matthew, an apocryphal book whihc the church recognizes as an authentic teaching but chose not to include in the Bible becuase it has little of relevance to Jesus’ main message and can be read here: newadvent.org/fathers/0848.htm
mentions that Joseph was a widower and married before. The “brothers” of Jesus may have been his children from his first marriage, if not technically cousins. But it is likely that he was surrounded by cousins as well, since Joseph’s brother and his wife were considered to be members of the original disciples who traveled with Jesus.
 
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Angainor:
I simply don’t understand the “Ark of the New Covenant” reasoning for two reasons:
  1. Was Mary carried around on a golden platform carried by priestly attendants wearing shining silver robes? Or did Mary travel to Bethleham on a donkey, get turned away from the inn, and give birth in a stable? The nativity account paints a picture of Jesus being born into an average station in life to average parents. The Ark of the Old Covenant may not have been used to haul grain, but I guarantee you Mary hauled grain home from the market from time to time.
  2. I do not understand why normal marital relations with her husband would make Mary any less “concentrated” than any other normal human activity. God created us Man and Woman. Marital relations are a part of life.
**
No other woman was CHOSEN to be the mother of God.
Would YOU wanna sleep with a woman that had just delivered the Son of God??**
 
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MaggieOH:
ar
Are you denying that Jesus is both human and divine? That is the heresy of Nestorius!!
:cool: Calm yourself. I never said that.

I said Jesus was born as a human and I meant it.

I believe Jesus is a “Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world” I believe He was “perfect Man”.

That does not mean that I do not believe Jesus was not also “God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds”.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. [from The Athanasian Creed]
 
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Angainor:
That is a fine question. To be honest, I don’t really care about Mary’s virginity, but I am curious why Catholics do. I ask myself, “Why do Catholics put so much emphasis on such a relatively superfluous topic as the life of Mary?” There is so much more important stuff to try to get right.
Agreed. . . . . . .but-

Speaking only for myself, I was taught about Mary’s perpetual virginity before I even understood the meaning of “perpetual” or “virginity”.

Once I knew the meanings, I still never gave her virginity much thought.

I think that Catholics care so deeply about this because some Protestants attack this teaching with such anger and disrespect that we MUST defend her. To us they are attacking a part of our faith that has been around since the first century.

And some even speak about Mary in such a hateful way, you would think they don’t even consider her Jesus’ Mother.

Suppose Catholics are dead wrong about everything. Would you be surprised to learn that the only other church with a history just as long as the Catholic Church believes the same thing about Mary’s virginity?

I don’t think Catholics put too much emphasis on this. I think others put too much emphasis on her non-virginity.

You are right. There are plenty of other things to get right. But fighting about those things wouldn’t be as much fun (for me).

I guess it’s just human nature to dwell on differences.
 
Church Militant said:
****
No other woman was CHOSEN to be the mother of God.
Would YOU wanna sleep with a woman that had just delivered the Son of God??

Let me put it this way. If I were Joseph, I would not be against sleeping with my wife.

That’s what married people do.
 
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Angainor:
I simply don’t understand the “Ark of the New Covenant” reasoning for two reasons:
  1. Was Mary carried around on a golden platform carried by priestly attendants wearing shining silver robes? Or did Mary travel to Bethleham on a donkey, get turned away from the inn, and give birth in a stable? The nativity account paints a picture of Jesus being born into an average station in life to average parents. The Ark of the Old Covenant may not have been used to haul grain, but I guarantee you Mary hauled grain home from the market from time to time.
  2. I do not understand why normal marital relations with her husband would make Mary any less “concentrated” than any other normal human activity. God created us Man and Woman. Marital relations are a part of life.
Marital relations aren’t a part of heavenly life according to Jesus. We get married because we die He taught.
 
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Angainor:
That is a fine question. To be honest, I don’t really care about Mary’s virginity, but I am curious why Catholics do. I ask myself, “Why do Catholics put so much emphasis on such a relatively superfluous topic as the life of Mary?” There is so much more important stuff to try to get right.
We are told by God in the Ten Commandment to honor our father and Mother. Jesus is our Brother therefore Mary is our Mother and we honor her as such.

Jesus said to John the Beloved at the foot of the cross, “Behold your mother.” And to Mary he said, “Woman, behold your son.”

Peace
 
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glow8worm:
How exactly can I convince a non Catholic that Mary was a virgen her whole life? My friend insists Mary couldn’t have possibly lived her whole life as a virgen, and be married to Joseph.

My friend also insists that Mary had other children. He is convinced of this because of the passages in the Bible that refer to Jesus’ brothers and sisters. Where are the passages that the word in hebrew is the same for brothers and cousins? And which passages does Jesus refer to all human kind as His brothers and sisters?
Dear glow8worm,

You ask many questions about Christ’s mother, Mary. The blessed Mother loves all God’s children. This is all you need to know and all you need to tell your friend. It is up to your friend to search for the answers not you.🙂

with Love,
Mary
 
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Angainor:
Let me put it this way. If I were Joseph, I would not be against sleeping with my wife.

That’s what married people do.
Let me put it this way, if you were Joseph and you had been informed that the woman you had been chosen to marry had made a vow of virginity, and at the time of being told you did not object, then under the Law of Moses, you would not be allowed to sleep with your wife.

Maggie
 
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serendipity:
The gospel of pseudo-Matthew, an apocryphal book whihc the church recognizes as an authentic teaching but chose not to include in the Bible becuase it has little of relevance to Jesus’ main message and can be read here: newadvent.org/fathers/0848.htm
mentions that Joseph was a widower and married before. The “brothers” of Jesus may have been his children from his first marriage, if not technically cousins. But it is likely that he was surrounded by cousins as well, since Joseph’s brother and his wife were considered to be members of the original disciples who traveled with Jesus.
Serendipity,

on the contrary, the Psuedo Gospel of Matthew is not recognized as authentic teaching because of the errors and embellishments that are contained within it.

The very point that you bring up is the one point which indicated that this book did not deserve a place in the canon of Scripture. That is a story that is based upon the author’s conjecture. It was not an authentic teaching of the Church.

Maggie
 
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MaggieOH:
Serendipity,

on the contrary, the Psuedo Gospel of Matthew is not recognized as authentic teaching because of the errors and embellishments that are contained within it.

The very point that you bring up is the one point which indicated that this book did not deserve a place in the canon of Scripture. That is a story that is based upon the author’s conjecture. It was not an authentic teaching of the Church.

Maggie
As a follow on from my comments, this is what was written by Jerome at the beginning of his translation. There is nothing here at all that suggests that the work should be in the canon of the Scripture. In fact the opposite is stated by Jerome, and for good reason:

** To my lords the holy and most blessed Bishops Cromatius and Heliodorus, Jerome, a humble servant of Christ, in the Lord greeting. **

** He who digs in ground where he knows that there is gold, does not instantly snatch at whatever the uptorn trench may pour forth; but, before the stroke of the quivering spade raises aloft the glittering mass, he meanwhile lingers over the sods to turn them over and lift them up, and especially he who has not added to his gains. An arduous task is enjoined upon me, since what your Blessedness has commanded me, the holy Apostle and Evangelist Matthew himself did not write for the purpose of publishing. For if he had not done it somewhat secretly, he would have added it also to his Gospel which he published. But he composed this book in Hebrew; and so little did he publish it, that at this day the book written in Hebrew by his own hand is in the possession of very religious men, to whom in successive periods of time it has been handed down by those that were before them. And this book they never at any time gave to any one to translate. And so it came to pass, that when it was published by a disciple of Manichaeus named Leucius, who also wrote the falsely styled Acts of the Apostles, this book afforded matter, not of edification, but of perdition; and the opinion of the Synod in regard to it was according to its deserts, that the ears of the Church should not be open to it. Let the snapping of those that bark against us now cease; for we do not add this little book to the canonical writings, but we translate what was written by an Apostle and Evangelist, that we may disclose the falsehood of heresy. In this work, then, we obey the commands of pious bishops as well as oppose impious heretics. It is the love of Christ, therefore, which we fulfil, believing that they will assist us by their prayers, who through our obedience attain to a knowledge of the holy infancy of our Saviour. There is extant another letter to the same bishops, attributed to Jerome: You ask me to let you know what I think of a book held by some to be about the nativity of St. Mary. And so I wish you to know that there is much in it that is false. For one Seleucus, who wrote the Sufferings of the Apostles, composed this book. But, just as he wrote what was true about their powers, and the miracles they worked, but said a great deal that was false about their doctrine; so here too he has invented many untruths out of his own head. I shall take care to render it word for word, exactly as it is in the Hebrew, since it is asserted that it was composed by the holy Evangelist Matthew, and written in Hebrew, and set at the head of his Gospel. Whether this be true or not, I leave to the author of the preface and the trustworthiness of the writer: as for myself, I pronounce them doubtful; I do not affirm that they are clearly false. But this I say freely–and I think none of the faithful will deny it – that, whether these stories be true or inventions, the sacred nativity of St. Mary was preceded by great miracles, and succeeded by the greatest; and so by those who believe that God can do these things, they can be believed and read without damaging their faith or imperilling their souls. In short, so far as I can, following the sense rather than the words of the writer, and sometimes walking in the same path, though not in the same footsteps, sometimes digressing a little, but still keeping the same road, I shall in this way keep by the style of the narrative, and shall say nothing that is not either written there, or might, following the same train of thought, have been written.
**

Maggie**
**
 
mark a:
Agreed. . . . . . .but-

Speaking only for myself, I was taught about Mary’s perpetual virginity before I even understood the meaning of “perpetual” or “virginity”.

Once I knew the meanings, I still never gave her virginity much thought.

I think that Catholics care so deeply about this because some Protestants attack this teaching with such anger and disrespect that we MUST defend her. To us they are attacking a part of our faith that has been around since the first century.

And some even speak about Mary in such a hateful way, you would think they don’t even consider her Jesus’ Mother.

Suppose Catholics are dead wrong about everything. Would you be surprised to learn that the only other church with a history just as long as the Catholic Church believes the same thing about Mary’s virginity?

I don’t think Catholics put too much emphasis on this. I think others put too much emphasis on her non-virginity.

You are right. There are plenty of other things to get right. But fighting about those things wouldn’t be as much fun (for me).

I guess it’s just human nature to dwell on differences.
:amen:
 
John1717 said:
**Many people claim to believe in Jesus but is their belief mere intellectual assent or are they true believers? Does the daily pattern of their life show that they truly believe in Him or do they live differently on days other than Sunday? ****Do they trust in Jesus Alone **as their all sufficient Savior or do they believe that something else is necessary to have eternal life? Do they trust in Mary, the Saints, sacraments, the Church or their good works to get to heaven? Do they trust that Jesus’s one time offering on Calvary’s cross was sufficient or do they believe that the sacrifice of the Mass is necessary?

Please ask yourself these questions and then I would like you to answer a question for me–"How do you intend to get to heaven?" :hmmm:

By dying in the state of grace. If I, or anyone else, dies in the state of grace - that is, with the supernatural life of God within them - their soul will live forever. That is how a person is saved.

This grace is received through [the sacrament of] baptism, whereby a person is “born again by water and the spirit”. If a person later turns from God, either through willful sin, or intellectual decent, they will fall from grace, because sin - both moral sin and disbelief - are incompatible with the “Holy Ghost, who dwells within them”. Therefore, such a person will “fall from grace”, and no longer possess the “eternal life” of God within their soul.

Such a person is not without hope, should they repent of their sins and turn back to God - “for if we confess our sins [sacrament of confession], He is faithful to forgive us and to cleans us from all unrighteousnes”. Such a person would again receive the “gift” of grace, and once again be “made a partaker of the Divine Nature”, and a “temple of the Holy Ghost”.

But, someone who refuses to believe a truth revealed by God - such as the one which says we must “eat the flesh of the son of man, and drink his blood” [sacrament of communion] - has sinned through unbelief. Such a person is called a “heretic”, and “a man that is a heretic is … condemned by his own judgment”, and thus will not be saved. For God requires two things: the submission of intellect (mind), and the submission of will. We submit intllectually when we believe what God has revealed, and we submit with our will, when we obey God. Both are necessary. The one who submits both intellect and will to God, and who is in the state of grace, will live be saved.

I have much more to say about the first part of your post, where you spoke of having both faith, and a “daily pattern of life that shows they are a believer”. In this you are in agreement with Catholics. Look for another post addresing this.

I find that I often miss posts that are addressed to me. If you would like to have a friendly debate on the topic of justification, please fell free to start a new thread. I would enjoy discussing it with you in great detail. If nothing else, at least you will learn what Catholics really believe, which is often distorted in non-Catholic books and websites.
 
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Angainor:
That is a fine question. To be honest, I don’t really care about Mary’s virginity, but I am curious why Catholics do. I ask myself, “Why do Catholics put so much emphasis on such a relatively superfluous topic as the life of Mary?” There is so much more important stuff to try to get right.
HI
ANGAINOR. I agree, there are nine other commandmants that we should be dwelling on.Yes, one is as important as the other but the question is are we truley obeying the other nine in our dayly walk. Most of us I am sure have trouble keeping them. Jesus said if you really love Me you will obey Me. God Bless
 
By dying in the state of grace. If I, or anyone else, dies in the state of grace - that is, with the supernatural life of God within them - their soul will live forever. That is how a person is saved.
Good overall response with just a minor quibble: Isn’t the soul eternal whether it be in Heaven or Hell? I thought when I first read the above that you were suggesting that our souls are annihilated if one is condemed to Hell.

Scott
 
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MaggieOH:
Let me put it this way, if you were Joseph and you had been informed that the woman you had been chosen to marry had made a vow of virginity, and at the time of being told you did not object, then under the Law of Moses, you would not be allowed to sleep with your wife.

Maggie
Quite right. If I knew my wife had taken a vow of virginity I would respect that vow. However, I would still not be personally opposed to the idea of sleeping with my wife.

Church Militant said:
No other woman was CHOSEN to be the mother of God.
Would YOU wanna sleep with a woman that had just delivered the Son of God??

The question had nothing to do with any vow. The question had to do with my personal willingness to sleep with my wife if she happened to have delivered the Son of God.

I say, no I would not be opposed. Why should I?
 
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SPOKENWORD:
HI
ANGAINOR. I agree, there are nine other commandmants that we should be dwelling on.Yes, one is as important as the other but the question is are we truley obeying the other nine in our dayly walk. Most of us I am sure have trouble keeping them. Jesus said if you really love Me you will obey Me. God Bless
:confused: Nine other commandments? I don’t understand. What commandment am I ignoring? The discussion was about Mary’s perpetual virginity. What does that have to do with the commandments?
 
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