Mary- other children

[MaggieOH]

Angainor:

Hello The Garg,

Worthy? I’m not worthy to breathe the same air Jesus might have breathed 2000 years ago. But God sent Him just the same.

Jesus was here. Walking the earth. Shaking people’s hands. Making conversation. Eventually dying a horrible death. We did not deserve it, but here He was, one of us. The Earth did not stop revolving while Jesus walked it. Life went on.

It sounds to me like you do not believe that Jesus is Divine. Not only do you make remarks about the parents of Mary and Joseph that can cause offense but you treat Jesus as though He was not God.

Maggie

 

[Benadam]

BibleReader:

Okay, here is how to engage in a relaxed reading of the gospel text, to see that the “adelphos” and “adelphe” in Mark 6:3 were really cousins of some sort…

**1 ****He departed from there and came to his native place, accompanied by his disciples. ****2 ****When the sabbath came he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished. They said, "Where did this man get all this? What kind of wisdom has been given him? What mighty deeds are wrought by his hands! ****3 **Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him. Mark 6:1-3.
In Verse 1, note that they are in Jesus’ “native place,” Nazareth in Galilee.

Now, Jesus’ mother Mary has with her there in Galilee these “adelphos” named James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and un-named “adelphe.”

Are these “adelphos” and “adelphe” with Mary the mother of Jesus, in Galilee, children of Mary the mother of Jesus? Or, are they something else?

First, carefully read Matthew 27:55-56…

**55 ****There were many women there, looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him. ****56 ****Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee. **Clearly, the “Mary” in Matthew 27:56 is not Mary Jesus’ mother. Matthew refers to Mary Jesus’ mother as “Mary his mother.” See Matthew 2:11. And referring to Mary Jesus’ mother as “Mary the mother of James and Joseph” is like referring to Napoleon Bonaparte’s mother as “the lady who was mother-in-law to Josephine.”

There’s no doubt about it, the Matthew 27:56 “Mary” was not Jesus’ mother.

Now, note well: Matthew 27:55 says that this Mary who wasn’t his mother followed Jesus from Galilee – she was in Galilee with him!

That’s where Mark 6:3 finds these “adelkphos” named James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and certain un-name “adelphe,” right?

Now note the names of two of these children of this Mary in Galilee who wasn’t Jesus’ mother, in Matthew 27:56: *James *and Joseph! Is that Jamnes and Joses?

Now let’s jump ahead to Mark 15:40-41:

**40 ****There were also women looking on from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses, and Salome. ****41 **These women had followed him when he was in Galilee and ministered to him. There’s that same Mary who wasn’t the mother of Jesus who was with Jesus in Galilee. Again she is identified as the mother of “James” and this time of *“Joses” *-- not “Joseph,” but clearly the same kid. Our i.d. of that Joseph as “Joses” turns out to be correct.

And the Mark 15:40-41 Mary has another child – an “adelphe,” Salome!

Finally, note well: While Mark 6:3 calls the kids there “adelphos” and “adelphe” of Jesus, *it does not call Mary Jesus’ mother *their mother!

Conclusion: The ones called “adelphos” and “adelphe” of Jesus in Mark 6:3 are apparently the children of a Mary who is a relative of Mary Jesus’ mother, where this Mary who is a relative of Mary Jesus’ mother was in Galilee, with her children, at the same time as the events of Mark 6:3.

Voila: There is no evidence in the gospels that Jesus had “brothers” or “sisters.”

Very convincing. Your name should be Sherlock Holmes Biblereader.

 

[Angainor]

Angainor:

Jesus was here. Walking the earth. Shaking people’s hands. Making conversation. Eventually dying a horrible death. We did not deserve it, but here He was, one of us. The Earth did not stop revolving while Jesus walked it. Life went on.

MaggieOH:

It sounds to me like you do not believe that Jesus is Divine. Not only do you make remarks about the parents of Mary and Joseph that can cause offense but you treat Jesus as though He was not God.

Maggie

What did I say that was inaccurate? Did Jesus not walk the Earth? Did Jesus not shake hands (or the first century equivalent)? Did Jesus not die a horrible death?

I do not forget that Jesus is devine. I also do not forget that Jesus was a human being.

 

[mark_a]

• I wonder how many Mary bashers are also fans of The DaVinci Code and the things it implies about Jesus?
• Except for trying to prove Catholicism wrong, what do Protestants stand to gain from a non-virgin Mary?

Sherlock:

I would also point out that if Jesus had brothers, then he would not have given his mother’s care over to John at the foot of the cross.

Did anyone answer this? I have read, possibly on this forum, that Jesus was refering to someone other than John the Apostle.

 

[MaggieOH]

mark a:

• I wonder how many Mary bashers are also fans of The DaVinci Code and the things it implies about Jesus?
• Except for trying to prove Catholicism wrong, what do Protestants stand to gain from a non-virgin Mary?

Did anyone answer this? I have read, possibly on this forum, that Jesus was refering to someone other than John the Apostle.

I do not see how this could be any other than the apostle John because John was the only Apostle who was present at the Cross. He is the one whom Jesus loved.

I suppose the next thing we will hear is that Matthew and Luke got it wrong about the names of the Apostles, and it should really be:

Joanna, Mary of Magdala (chosen to be the leader of course), Lydia, Salome, the other Mary, …
anyway you get my drift.

Maggie

 

[Tom]

The answer to the “brothers” of the Lord is plainly in Scripture. Mt 13
54
27 He came to his native place and taught the people in their synagogue. They were astonished 28 and said, “Where did this man get such wisdom and mighty deeds?
55
Is he not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother named Mary and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?
56
Are not his sisters all with us? Where did this man get all this?”
57
And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his native place and in his own house.”
58
And he did not work many mighty deeds there because of their lack of faith.

So where’s the question? The brothers of Jesus have the same blood relationship as His human father, Joseph (none). Ask yourself, was Joseph His father? Well yes, in a family setting, but certainly not a biological relationship. Yes Jesus has brothers, many, many brothers, you and I are His brothers, and Mary is also our mother, but not biologically.

 

[MaggieOH]

Angainor:

What did I say that was inaccurate? Did Jesus not walk the Earth? Did Jesus not shake hands (or the first century equivalent)? Did Jesus not die a horrible death?

I do not forget that Jesus is devine. I also do not forget that Jesus was a human being.

Againor it is the way that you are making the comments that is the problem. That is why I wrote in that tone. I am not saying that Jesus did not do any of the ordinary things. What I am saying is that comments like the ones you have been making can be quite offensive and they can be taken in a way for someone to believe that you do not believe in the Divinity of Jesus Christ, as well as His humanity.

Also, from the experiences that I have had with other Protestant people on Apologetics lists one of the conclusions that can be made about such arguments that are put forward is that this kind of questioning indicates a lack of conviction for the Lord. By that I mean that they do not fully understand the mysteries of the life of Jesus Christ and therefore feel as though they must tear down everyone else’s beliefs to their own standard.

MaggieOH

 

[Benadam]

mark a:

• I wonder how many Mary bashers are also fans of The DaVinci Code and the things it implies about Jesus?
• Except for trying to prove Catholicism wrong, what do Protestants stand to gain from a non-virgin Mary?

Did anyone answer this? I have read, possibly on this forum, that Jesus was refering to someone other than John the Apostle.

I don’t know about the first question, the second I would say no, there is no other reason I can think of.

I have a vague recollection of the last question but dismissed it as not worth exploring since the first Christians would have honored anyone with the courage to be at the foot of the cross. They honored John the apostle Jesus loved as being there. It doesn’t make sense that the person who Christ unites to His Holy Family in that way would be left in obscurity.

There are so many references in the Gospels pointing to the positive identity of John the apostle Jesus loved as the one at the foot of the cross and as something always believed since the beginning it just doesn’t wash. The one who leaned on His breast at the last supper. The one who was singled out and Peter questioned Christ about after the resurrection. Many other references of this apostles exclusive intimacy with Jesus and the fact that he is the only one at the foot as well fits too much like a puzzle piece to be denied.

To be respectfull though I would like to explore the evidence that it wasn’t John the beloved.

 

[Angainor]

MaggieOH:

Also, from the experiences that I have had with other Protestant people on Apologetics lists one of the conclusions that can be made about such arguments that are put forward is that this kind of questioning indicates a lack of conviction for the Lord. By that I mean that they do not fully understand the mysteries of the life of Jesus Christ and therefore feel as though they must tear down everyone else’s beliefs to their own standard.

If you feel I and other Protestants make the mistake of not fully understanding the mysteries of the life of Jesus Christ, then I really feel others may err in the other direction. That is I think it is possible to loose sight of what Jesus’ life was really like.

While on Earth, Jesus was the Christ, he was the Savior, he was the Son of God, and he was divine. But not obviously so. It took a certain amount of faith even for His Apostles. Jesus asked them “Who do you say I am?”
Coming to his hometown, [Jesus] began teaching the people in the synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son?..” And he did not do may miracles there because of their lack of faith. Matthew 13:54-55,58
Jesus wasn’t accepted in his hometown. I think that is because Jesus grew up perfectly normal. Neither he nor his family stood out as “special” or “different”. His hometown couldn’t believe this average son of a carpenter deserved to be listened to as a preacher.

Personally, I think that is how it was supposed to be. Jesus lived a normal life up until the time he began his minstry.

I give you the impression that I am talking Jesus down, that I don’t appreciate his divinity enough. I feel I must confess to you that I may be a little guilty of going for the shock factor. I fealt you over-emphasized Jesus’ majesty at the expense of loosing sight of Jesus humanity, so I deliberatly used language over-emphasizing his humanity, hoping that you also may see a little of Jesus’ humanity that I see.

You see, it is very important for me that God did send his Son to live as a human being, to have lived in my shoes, to have experienced both life’s struggles and life’s little joys as I have. It is an important part of my faith. If you feel that I am tearing down then I obviously didn’t choose a very good way of sharing my views. I am sorry. I will desist.

But I will tell you that if I could go back in time to meet Jesus in his 20’s, the first thing I would do is shake his hand.

God bless you
And he has given him authority to judge, because he is the Son of Man. John 5:27

 

[MaggieOH]

Angainor:

If you feel I and other Protestants make the mistake of not fully understanding the mysteries of the life of Jesus Christ, then I really feel others may err in the other direction. That is I think it is possible to loose sight of what Jesus’ life was really like.

Againor this is a very good response. I agree that some can err in the opposite direction such that they concentrate too much on the Divinity of Christ, and forget about the humanity of Christ. I aceept your point as being one that is quite reasonable.

Angainor:

While on Earth, Jesus was the Christ, he was the Savior, he was the Son of God, and he was divine. But not obviously so. It took a certain amount of faith even for His Apostles. Jesus asked them "Who do you say I am?"Coming to his hometown, [Jesus] began teaching the people in the synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son?..” And he did not do may miracles there because of their lack of faith. Matthew 13:54-55,58

However this is where you need to exercise caution in how you are interpreting the particular motif; this is one reason why there is so much in the way of mistranslation and misinterpretation. People do not properly understand what is happening in those passages. I will deal with the first question and congratulate you on the comments regarding your second quote. It sounds perfectly reasonable to have your particular take on why Jesus was not accepted.

With regard to the question “who do you say I am”? Jesus had a purpose for asking that question. It lead to Peter giving his confession: “You are the Christ, the Son of the Ever Living God”. Just remember that it took the Apostles up to the time of the Resurrection to fully comprehend what Messiah really meant. They were Israelites. They believed that the Messiah was going to be a king in the same way as David had been king, and they expected Him to lead them into battle against the Romans. Even some who claimed to be his supporters thought in this way and that is why at the end of the story of the Eucharistic miracle in John Chapter 6 there is one line that says: “and they tried to make him a king, but he slipped away from them” (paraphrased)Anyway congrats on the keen insight.

 

[MaggieOH]

(cont)

Angainor:

Jesus wasn’t accepted in his hometown. I think that is because Jesus grew up perfectly normal. Neither he nor his family stood out as “special” or “different”. His hometown couldn’t believe this average son of a carpenter deserved to be listened to as a preacher.

Personally, I think that is how it was supposed to be. Jesus lived a normal life up until the time he began his minstry.

I give you the impression that I am talking Jesus down, that I don’t appreciate his divinity enough. I feel I must confess to you that I may be a little guilty of going for the shock factor. I fealt you over-emphasized Jesus’ majesty at the expense of loosing sight of Jesus humanity, so I deliberatly used language over-emphasizing his humanity, hoping that you also may see a little of Jesus’ humanity that I see.

You see, it is very important for me that God did send his Son to live as a human being, to have lived in my shoes, to have experienced both life’s struggles and life’s little joys as I have. It is an important part of my faith. If you feel that I am tearing down then I obviously didn’t choose a very good way of sharing my views. I am sorry. I will desist.

But I will tell you that if I could go back in time to meet Jesus in his 20’s, the first thing I would do is shake his hand.

God bless youAnd he has given him authority to judge, because he is the Son of Man. John 5:27

You have shown a very keen insight in the points that you have raised. However, by overemphasising the humanity of Jesus you failed to see the true Mystery of the Incarnation. In order to have a balanced understanding of who Jesus is, that is Jesus is the Messiah, and that He is fully Human and fully Divine, you need to get the whole picture in its right context.

For example instead of talking down the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, probably because you do not understand the reason that it is proclaimed - that is if Mary had other children then the enemies of the Church would be proved right and God would be a liar, it would be far better to try and get a better understanding of the history behind this declaration. Keep in mind that the founders of the Protestant Reformation also believed in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary and I feel certain that they would turn over in their graves to hear some of the things that we hear today.

The passages that I pointed out should be passages that help you to see that Jesus really is God, as well as human, because He did not just appear in the Flesh, but He took on flesh and was born in the usual way.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

John1717:

I am so grateful to be a blood bought, born again follower of Jesus Christ. I do not put my trust in a church or denomination for my salvation, only Christ. I cannot praise Him enough for what He has done for me. I don’t deserve it nor can I earn it! He saved me by His grace through faith in Him alone. I will praise God forever!

Hello I am grateful for Jesus laying down His life for me too,That is why I will never leave the Church Jesus started why would I say I love Him and dis His Bride The Church?Far beit from me to tear down what He set up.God Bless

 

[Angainor]

I understand about the Apostles. Jesus was clearing up any misconceptions they may have had from Jewish tradition.

MaggieOH:

For example instead of talking down the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, probably because you do not understand the reason that it is proclaimed

You are right in that I haven’t been able to put together the reason for it.

MaggieOH:

• that is if Mary had other children then the enemies of the Church would be proved right and God would be a liar, it would be far better to try and get a better understanding of the history behind this declaration.

What do you mean? Why would God be a liar? I haven’t heard that.

 

[MaggieOH]

Angainor:

I understand about the Apostles. Jesus was clearing up any misconceptions they may have had from Jewish tradition.

You are right in that I haven’t been able to put together the reason for it.What do you mean? Why would God be a liar? I haven’t heard that.

Angainor, this is where you have to put the Old Testament and the New Testament into proper context. Our salvation history begins in the Book of Genesis, and ends with the Sacrifice on the Cross and Resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, when Jesus taught the Apostles he also taught them everything in the Old Testament Books of the Prophets that pointed to Him as the Messiah. The “Virgin” was to be with child and bring forth Emmanuel, that is “God is with us”. That prophecy that is found in Isaiah is fulfilled with the birth of Jesus. I have pointed you in the direction of the Book of Ezekiel because it is written that where the Lord passes through, the gate will remain shut and none will open it or pass through it. This I believe is a direct reference to the one chosen to be the Mother of the Lord, because Jesus was in fact born in the normal way, having gestated in the womb of Mary, and passed through when the time of gestation was finished (BTW I have a great x-ray photo of my youngest son in the womb and at 12 weeks that little figure is very clear. If we had a picture of Jesus in the womb in the same way there would be no way we could doubt that he was born in the normal way).

The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity is not Marian centred but is in fact Christ centred. It is Christ centred because if Mary did have other children then this would cast doubt upon the claim that Jesus is God - that is, since Jesus claimed himself to be “I AM”, then He who is the Son of God (and therefore God) would be declared a liar.

It is not the mere fact of Mary’s virginity that is being disputed, it is the Truth that Jesus is Divine, as well as being human.

I hope this makes sense to you.

Maggie

 

[John1717]

Lisa4Catholics:

Hello I am grateful for Jesus laying down His life for me too,That is why I will never leave the Church Jesus started why would I say I love Him and dis His Bride The Church?Far beit from me to tear down what He set up.God Bless

With all due respect, Jesus did NOT start the Roman Catholic Church!!!
:nope:

 

[Tantum_ergo]

With all due respect, Jesus did NOT start the Roman Catholic Church!!!

WIth all due respect, if He didn’t start the Church which is in this 21st century A.D. Catholic–embracing the Roman (Latin) rite and the Eastern rite, and which had the Orthodox split from it in 1054 A.D., and various Protestant sects split from it starting in the 16th century A.D. through now, then which church, pray tell,* did* He start?

 

[sfp]

In my humble opinion, it is absolutely essential for us all to understand the sacredness of Mary’s virginity. First and foremost, she was the spouse of the holy spirit. The human, earthly marriage to Joseph was second to this marriage. Joseph knew that he could not defile that sacred relationship, which is why he took Mary in…to protect her sacredness.

The parallels to the old testament “type” (the ark) are so convincing, that in my opinion, anyone who doesn’t recognize the holy spirit’s connection between the two, either isn’t interested in the truth, or is so blinded by hatred towards the Catholic view, that they will never open their minds enough to give it a chance to sink in.

See 2 Sam and Luke’s Gospel…no one can deny the obvious comparison that the holy spirit draws.

Bottom line, if we can’t submit to the Catholic church’s teaching, then we are simply trying to privately interpret God’s written word, which is forbidden is scripture. We must humbly submit to the Church that has protected the truth for 2000 years.

What if our founding fathers of the USA had hammered out the constitution, and they ordered that copies be passed out to all households for their own interpretations? (No supreme court) That is what is proposed when someone suggests we all have the ability to interpret God’s Word (written, as well as what has been passed down by sacred tradition).

(again…my opinions)

Peace to all.

 

[rschermer2]

mark a:

Agreed. . . . . . .but-

Speaking only for myself, I was taught about Mary’s perpetual virginity before I even understood the meaning of “perpetual” or “virginity”.

Once I knew the meanings, I still never gave her virginity much thought.

I think that Catholics care so deeply about this because some Protestants attack this teaching with such anger and disrespect that we MUST defend her. To us they are attacking a part of our faith that has been around since the first century.

And some even speak about Mary in such a hateful way, you would think they don’t even consider her Jesus’ Mother.

Suppose Catholics are dead wrong about everything. Would you be surprised to learn that the only other church with a history just as long as the Catholic Church believes the same thing about Mary’s virginity?

I don’t think Catholics put too much emphasis on this. I think others put too much emphasis on her non-virginity.

You are right. There are plenty of other things to get right. But fighting about those things wouldn’t be as much fun (for me).

I guess it’s just human nature to dwell on differences.

The reason protestants put so much emphasis on this is because it is one plank in their argument against the Church’s authority and the magisterium’s protection from teaching error.

You see, if they can ‘prove’ to Catholics that the church can err on teachings of Faith and Morals, then she isn’t the true Church.

RS

 

[Church_Militant]

rschermer2 said:

The reason protestants put so much emphasis on this is because it is one plank in their argument against the Church’s authority and the magisterium’s protection from teaching error.

You see, if they can ‘prove’ to Catholics that the church can err on teachings of Faith and Morals, then she isn’t the true Church.

RS

I agree 100%. This is a very good insight.

 

[roncor]

SPOKENWORD:

Can a marriage be a marriage without having a sexual relationship? Wouldnt this be grounds for an annulment. God Bless

There are many people,evn in this current day for whatever the reason practice celibacy as a part of their married life. So if we are capable of doing this.Then certainly Mary who was picked by God to be His earthly mother,certainly had the ability to deny themselves. John