Mary- other children

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There are many people,evn in this current day for whatever the reason practice celibacy as a part of their married life. So if we are capable of doing this.Then certainly Mary who was picked by God to be His earthly mother,certainly had the ability to deny themselves. John
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Yes that correct, but Josheph was told not to touch her before Christ’s birth not after. Also Mary had no right to resist Josheph if he did demand sex.
 
Christ's friend:
Yes that correct, but Josheph was told not to touch her before Christ’s birth not after. Also Mary had no right to resist Josheph if he did demand sex.
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Have you ever heard of St. Jerome? He is recognized by Catholics and Protestants as one of the greatest scripture scholars of all times. It was he who translated the first edition of the Bible from their original languages, into the universal language of Latin, in the late 4th century. His Bible is known as the Vulgate.

I am including a link for you to read what St. Jerome had to say about the Virgin Mary.

cin.org/users/james/files/helvidiu.htm

Please let me know what you think.
 
I skimmed through the article and noticed a few things. When it came to proving any Marian docrine Jerome used little Scripture and alot of tradition and “logic”. It is amazing how vivid the docrines about Christ are and how “hidden” (good word to use) the Marian docrines are. Maybe that is because there are no Marian docrines except for the facts that the Bible vividly tells us. She bore Christ. She had a savior to which she admitted. I have a savior too I admit it does that make me imaculetly concieved? (which by the way is not were in Text just devoloped from it). As you can tell I am not a fan of Marian docrines, but if you want to debate them with me go on the various topics. This topic is talking about her virginity. So I will try to stay on topic, but first let me read the part about her being a virgin till death. (Which by the way is not said anywhere in inspired Scripture).
 
You know what better yet. You post it in your own words. I never give people articles to read unless I wrote them. So please explain to me where in Scripture it says Mary stayed a virgin till death or Assumation (as you also believe and does not say in Scripture).
 
Christ's friend:
Yes that correct, but Josheph was told not to touch her before Christ’s birth not after. Also Mary had no right to resist Josheph if he did demand sex.
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Would the men of this forum please put yourself in Joseph’s place? Your betrothed tells you she is pregnant with God’s own son. Then God tells you in a dream that what is in her is of the Holy Spirit and is the actual Son of God. You realize that this young woman whom you are charged with caring for by God Himself, is the Ark of the New Covenant…the one so holy as to be able to contain God Incarnate in her womb. A miracle has happened in the deepest recesses of this young woman you are charged with providing for a protecting. Moreover, once the Child is born, you are charged with the teaching and upbringing of God’s own Son as well as His Mother, made holy and sacred by the very presence of God within her.

So…how many of you would wink laciviously at this holy woman in whom a miracle took place…who gave birth to the Son of God…and say…"Hey baby…let’s get it on!"file:///C:/Program%20Files/Smileycons/Packs/Default/0508.gif
 
I love how you add emotion to prove a doctrine and do not use Scripture. The fact of the matter is that Joseph was a man with desires like every other man. Women had to listen to men unless they wanted to sin. He was forbidden to touch her before Christ not after. No where was he told to keep her a virgin after. So please I ask you again prove to me with Scripture that Mary was a virgin. Also since when is have sex with your wife a sin? Or are you going to prove to me now that see wasn’t his wife using traditional teaching and not Scripture.
 
Christ's friend:
I love how you add emotion to prove a doctrine and do not use Scripture. The fact of the matter is that Joseph was a man with desires like every other man. Women had to listen to men unless they wanted to sin. He was forbidden to touch her before Christ not after. No where was he told to keep her a virgin after. So please I ask you again prove to me with Scripture that Mary was a virgin. Also since when is have sex with your wife a sin? Or are you going to prove to me now that see wasn’t his wife using traditional teaching and not Scripture.
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BTW:Christ’s "friend":
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Posts Total Posts: 32 (32 posts per day)
**30+ posts / day…aren’t we the busy little trolls:rolleyes:
****WHAT Scripture???
You can’t even prove you have scripture from your “scripture”!
Read the scripitures. NOWHERE, is the book “HEBREWS” even mentioned as part of the bible!
The 1st 200yrs of christians NEVER put it up as scripture either.
Therefore, you have a false bible, which means no true bible that can judge.
All you have is your opinion about some bible, which is 2,000 yrs too late.
At least Mohammed was only 500+ years too late.
There’s your answer.
:rolleyes:

Your automatic post generator needs some more work.
**
 
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John1717:
With all due respect, Jesus did NOT start the Roman Catholic Church!!!
:nope:
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Well he did not start any of the following:

Lutheran
Methodist
Presbyterian
Puritan
Baptist
Pentecostal
Church of Christ
Landmark Baptist
Missionary Baptist
Primitive Baptist

All of the above, plus the thousands of others were started by men.

Jesus established the Church and I am a part of that Church. The rest are branches that have been stripped from the trunk.

Maggie
 
Jesus established the Church and I am a part of that Church.
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So am I, I am part of Christ’s Church but we call her Baptist not Catholic.

And TNT,

Now I know how Catholics come up with doctrines 👍 . They just make up whatever they want to believe and then say the Scripture we have is not original yet they hold on to books like Maccabees. I love the hypocrisy :clapping:
C yah around under another alias because this one getting deleted for sure.
 
Christ's friend:
Yes that correct, but Josheph was told not to touch her before Christ’s birth not after. Also Mary had no right to resist Josheph if he did demand sex.
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Do you have any Scriptural proof of what you are saying? The Truth is the Scripture does not make a comment on that point.

On the other hand the Scripture is very clear about the issue of a vow of celibacy when it is taken. I refer you to numbers Chapter 30 where this subject is discussed. In particular, I draw your attention to the following verse:

"Every vow or oath that is binding on the wife may be endorsed or annulled by the husband. If by the following day the husband has said nothing to her, it means he endorses her vow, whatever it may be or her pledge, whatever it may be. He endorses them if he says nothing on the day he learns of them, no word of her mouth, vow or pledge shall be binding. Since the husband has annulled them, Yahweh will not hold her to them. **But if he annuls them a longer time after he learnt of them, then he must bear the burden of the wife’s fault. " **(Numbers 30:14-17)

If it is true, and from Mary’s words it appears to be true, that Mary took a vow of virginity and that Joseph was aware of this vow on the day of betrothal, then Joseph would not be called a just or righteous man if he attempted to annul that vow at a later time.

Further, I would protest that by attempting to make this type of claim, you are doing what the pagans did when they projected themselves onto their gods. There is no Scriptural support or basis for claiming that Mary had other children. In fact the Scripture says the opposite.

Maggie
 
Christ's friend:
I skimmed through the article and noticed a few things. When it came to proving any Marian docrine Jerome used little Scripture and alot of tradition and “logic”. It is amazing how vivid the docrines about Christ are and how “hidden” (good word to use) the Marian docrines are. Maybe that is because there are no Marian docrines except for the facts that the Bible vividly tells us. She bore Christ. She had a savior to which she admitted. I have a savior too I admit it does that make me imaculetly concieved? (which by the way is not were in Text just devoloped from it). As you can tell I am not a fan of Marian docrines, but if you want to debate them with me go on the various topics. This topic is talking about her virginity. So I will try to stay on topic, but first let me read the part about her being a virgin till death. (Which by the way is not said anywhere in inspired Scripture).
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From this response, am I to assume that you accept the heresy of Helvidius and therefore belong to the select group that are neo-Helvidians, who slam Catholics by making false claims about Scripture, and who impose neo-pagan ideas onto the Holy Family?

Maggie
 
Christ's friend:
I skimmed through the article and noticed a few things. When it came to proving any Marian docrine Jerome used little Scripture and alot of tradition and “logic”. It is amazing how vivid the docrines about Christ are and how “hidden” (good word to use) the Marian docrines are. Maybe that is because there are no Marian docrines except for the facts that the Bible vividly tells us. She bore Christ. She had a savior to which she admitted. I have a savior too I admit it does that make me imaculetly concieved? (which by the way is not were in Text just devoloped from it). As you can tell I am not a fan of Marian docrines, but if you want to debate them with me go on the various topics. This topic is talking about her virginity. So I will try to stay on topic, but first let me read the part about her being a virgin till death. (Which by the way is not said anywhere in inspired Scripture).
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I can take it from your comments that you do not know that Marian doctrines are not concentrated upon Mary but in fact are Christ centred. I can take it that you have never taken the time to study any of these doctrines before venturing an ignorant opinion about them. It is obvious that you do not understand the nature of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, and therefore you must also have difficulty accepting that Jesus Christ is true God and true Man. I suspect from your response that not only do you follow the heretical doctrine of Helvidius but that you also endorse the doctrines of both Nestorius and Arius. I am drawing these conclusions based upon your lack of knowledge as well as your lack of understanding of how Mary always points to Jesus Christ, not only as the Messiah, but also as True God and True Man.
 
I guess no man can answer my question. The people in the Bible are not cardboard cutouts…they were PEOPLE. My question was a logical one. It was stated that Mary could not have denied Joseph if he DEMANDED sex after Jesus was born. I merely wonder what a wholely human man would do in this situation. I am a woman so could not answer.

However, I would assume that the answer would be what Antoine, the young man so taken with Bernadette, said of her…“One ought not even touch such a creature!” And she only SAW the Mother of Jesus. Surely Joseph, as a man, thought similiarly about the precious Mother of God’s ownly begotten Son.

We can also see that Mary was actually the spouse of the Holy Spirit who impregnated her. In ancient Jewish times, a man could choose to have a woman found pregnant with another man’s child prior to their marriage stoned to death or he could choose to take her as his legal wife, but would never be with her sexually as long as that man that fathered her child was alive since the father was her de facto husband.
 
**5. It was notthe Roman Catholic Church that gave us the canon. **

What the Catholic Church means (and what we mean as Catholics) by the term the Roman Catholic Church gave us the canon is that God allowed the Catholic magisterium to authoritatively recognize what was infallible Scripture and what was fallible. Of course God gave us the Canon, no one disputes that…the issue is HOW the canon became 27 books of the New Testament…that’s the issue. And it is historical fact that the Catholic Church authoritatively recognized what was the infallible word of God, to be part of the Scriptures and what was to be discarded.

**The Canon was established by the Apostles and Disciples of Christ that established – through the Holy Spirit – which books of the Bible should be In the Bible. **

No this is clearly historically inaccurate. When did the Apostles and Disciples of Christ establish the canon prior to the 4th century? They didn’t…sure the books had been written but compiled into a canon and authoritatively recognized and decided upon wouldn’t come until the 4th century.

Clearly all of the books had been written by or attributed to an Apostle e.g. Mark, Luke and Jude, but to say that the canon was established as we know it today in 27 books of the New Testament during the time of the Apostles or the time of Christ is grossly inaccurate and is found nowhere in ANY historical document.
The canon was first authoritatively recognized by the council of Rome 382 under the authority of Pope Damasus. Prior to the 4th century the early Church both East and West grappled with many books and modern scholars put them in three catagories or groups:

1)Rejected books i.e. Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Paul, Gospel of Mary.
2)Accepted books i.e. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.
3)Disputed books i.e. Revelation,1,2 John Hebrews etc., these were the books that early Catholic Church had to decide upon what was the infallible word of God and what wasn’t and as I said prior, God allowed the Catholic magisterium (Bishops of the Church in union with the Pope) to authoritatively recognize what was the infallible word of God.
God allowed that whole process in order to show everyone who had and has the authority given to it by Christ through Apostolic succession and to know what is of God and what isn’t.

That is why you can find some letters of Paul mentioned in the New Testament but not included.

No again clearly historically inaccurate. There was NOT an established authoritative and complete canon or decision on what was to be the totality of 27 books of the New Testament canon prior to 382 AD.

Any reputable Protestant scholar would affirm this and one of those books off of the top of my head is Dr. Norman Geisler’s book “A general introduction to the Bible.”
 
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Maraleah:
I guess no man can answer my question. The people in the Bible are not cardboard cutouts…they were PEOPLE. My question was a logical one. It was stated that Mary could not have denied Joseph if he DEMANDED sex after Jesus was born. I merely wonder what a wholely human man would do in this situation. I am a woman so could not answer.

However, I would assume that the answer would be what Antoine, the young man so taken with Bernadette, said of her…“One ought not even touch such a creature!” And she only SAW the Mother of Jesus. Surely Joseph, as a man, thought similiarly about the precious Mother of God’s ownly begotten Son.

We can also see that Mary was actually the spouse of the Holy Spirit who impregnated her. In ancient Jewish times, a man could choose to have a woman found pregnant with another man’s child prior to their marriage stoned to death or he could choose to take her as his legal wife, but would never be with her sexually as long as that man that fathered her child was alive since the father was her de facto husband.
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Hi Mara, Joseph was merely human unless you said you wondered what a holy human would do in your question. I wouldn’t answer this question if I thought that though. I’ll answer that after briefly exchanging some of my thoughts about the role of the Holy Spirit as it relates to Mary and Joseph’s married life.

Mary was Joseph’s wife, and Joseph was Mary’s husband. Those bonds and family roles were experienced more so in their marriage than any other ever. The Holy Spirit couldn’t have scandalized Joseph with the sin of adultery. On the contrary the Holy Spirit’s intimacy with Mary was a unifying force in her marriage with Joseph. Remember the story describing Jesus at twelve years old? Even though both Mary and Joseph were well aware of the miracle of the Incarnation it almost seems to have been forgotten in the way the story describes Joseph and Mary’s response to Jesus’ willfull absence from their sphere of enfluence as parents. Their response also reveals behaviour that a married couple with natural affection for each other and their children would have. It’s obvious in this passage that a married life with kids wasn’t hindered in any way.

To answer your other question. I can only hope that I would be filled with a reverence that no carnal desire could penetrate when looking at the Blessed Mother. If I were her husband I could not have sex with her if that were what God expected when I chose being her husband as was the case for St. Joseph and conversely if God so willed otherwise I’m sure the necessary means would be granted.
 
Christ's friend:
I love how you add emotion to prove a doctrine and do not use Scripture. The fact of the matter is that Joseph was a man with desires like every other man. Women had to listen to men unless they wanted to sin. He was forbidden to touch her before Christ not after. No where was he told to keep her a virgin after. So please I ask you again prove to me with Scripture that Mary was a virgin. Also since when is have sex with your wife a sin? Or are you going to prove to me now that see wasn’t his wife using traditional teaching and not Scripture.
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I have a feeling that I have met up with this person on another list at sometime. The wording reminds me of a man who goes under the name of Hernandez on one of the Yahooo lists. I just know this modis operandi and I am feeling very suspicious about his intentions.

Maggie
 
I am sorry John1717, whether you like it or not, it is an historical FACT that Martin Luther rejected the Biblical book of James as an “epistle of straw, with no character of the Gospel in it”, simply because it blew his doctrine of salvation by faith alone out of the water. He also rejected the Epistle of Jude and the Epistle to the Hebrews and the magnificent Book of Revelation. Some of the other Reformers had to fight hard to prevent Luther from tossing these books out of the Bible. This is what happens when you start to make your own church, your own religion.
The Canon of Scripture guides us to know which of the numerous writings that existed after the life of Our Lord, and the time of the Apostles, were in fact divinely inspired and to be accepted as Holy Scripture. The Canon of the New Testament was declared by a council of the Catholic Church, the Council of Carthage in 396A.D., which confirmed the decisions of a previous Council (Hippo in 393A.D.).
 
Church Militant:
No…you do since we know from early church tradition that Joseph was a much older widower and that these were step brothers and cousins of Jesus.
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Your so called “early church tradition” is not the authority, Scripture is!

Let me quote Jesus from Mark 7:7; 8; 13 **“These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men…You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men…And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions…Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” :yup: **
Jeremiah 17:5: 7 states, “This is what the Lord says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man…But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord.”
 
John1717 said:
Your so called “early church tradition” is not the authority, Scripture is!

Let me quote Jesus****from Mark 7:7; 8; 13**“These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men**…You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men…And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions…Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” :yup:

Jeremiah 17:5: 7 states, “This is what the Lord says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man…But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord.”
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John1717,

What does 2 Thes 2:14-15 say?

Could you quote that for me?
 
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