Mary, Queen of Heaven?

[apophasis]

I don’t know. I wasn’t there. And neither were you, laddy!
An argument from silence means, forgive me, nothing.Indeed, one could, from the same silence, argue that because of the problems that arose during David’s lifetime–due to multiple wives–that the office of the gebirah was, indeed, divinely appointed.

And you’d still be wrong.

The issue here is not arguing from silence, but not building doctrine on it. True Christianity is based on revelation, that which is Divinely revealed. It’s what separates it from man’s religions, fact from fiction.

What??? Are you serious!!! Of course He is King; He is KIng of Kings & Lord of Lords!!!

I agree. But He is now sharing His Father’s throne in Heaven functioning as the believer’s High Priest and Advocate. He will reign as King of kings and Lord of lords when He bodily returns and sits upon His father David’s throne here on earth. The context in which He is called Kings of kings and Lord of lords in Rev. 19.

Your doctrine is built on two errors, based totally on silence, neither on Divine revelation: (1) That the Man Jesus is now reigning in Heaven as “King of Heaven,” and (2) He came to this earth to acquire a human mother to reign there with Him.

Makes for good Greek mythology, but not good Christianity.

 

[apophasis]

Good point! And David punished the fool for his duplicity. But you’re missing the main point. Why did Adonijah go to Bathsheba in the first place? Look at Adonijah’s own words. “For he will not refuse you”.

Please read the account, NW. Did he refuse her? Of course!! If he had not refused her request he would have likely lost his throne. You build your doctrine on the words of a fool.

Who said that Mary is greater in heaven than Jesus. NO CATHOLIC makes that claim, so please don’t tell others that we do. We teach that Jesus rules in heaven and Mary is the Queen Mother.

See my post to Zooey. If you lift up Mary as “Queen of Heaven” (apart from any Divine Revelation), and the Man Christ Jesus is not actually “reigning” as “King of Heaven” (which He is not), then you’ve inadvertently set her in a higher position than He.

There are few too many threads on this subject to get into, but the Church teaches that the woman represents Mary, Israel, and the Church.

Nevertheless, the woman isn’t the one caught up to Heaven. The male child she gave birth to is.

 

[NotWorthy]

Please read the account, NW. Did he refuse her? Of course!! If he had not refused her request he would have likely lost his throne. You build your doctrine on the words of a fool.

Then you call David a fool, too, for he said the exact same words, “ask anything thing of me, for I will not refuse you”.

He refused her because she asked something he wouldn’t give. But Mary, the NT fulfillment of this OT Type, would never ask something of Jesus that would go against His wishes in the first place. She, unlike Bathsheba, understands her Lords wishes.

You still haven’t addressed my point on Divine Revelation, where God instructs Jeremiah to address the King and his Queen Mother. This shows God’s recognition of the queen mother’s role.

See my post to Zooey. If you lift up Mary as “Queen of Heaven” (apart from any Divine Revelation), and the Man Christ Jesus is not actually “reigning” as “King of Heaven” (which He is not), then you’ve inadvertently set her in a higher position than He.

Jesus told the Pharisees that his kingdom is not of this world. He told many parables in Luke (as he was traveling to Jerusalem, and then in Jerusalem his final week) about a man that had to go to far away to receive his crown. Jesus was prophecying His own crowning in Heaven.

Please desist in this lie that Catholics place Mary over Jesus. If we place Mary as Queen of Heaven, it’s because we (in your own words) mistakenly place Christ as King.

Nevertheless, the woman isn’t the one caught up to Heaven. The male child she gave birth to is.

Again, no one claims that the male child caught up to heaven is Mary. The male child caught up to heaven is Jesus. The woman, wearing a crown in the heavenly temple, who gave birth to Jesus, is Mary.

 

[HailMary]

Those who don’t see the Blessed Virgin Mary’s glory are similar to the Isrealities. Recall when Moses came down and his face was glowing and they asked Moses to put a veil over his face because they could not even gaze at him.

The difference now is that instead of the people asking Moses to put the veil over his face, they have put the veil over their own. Just replace Moses with Mary’s person (since Mary is a greater intercessor than Moses was with his people ).

Regarding those who say something like the Queen is equal to the King or any such nonsense:
“There aren’t a 100 people who hate the Catholic Church: but there are millions who hate what they think the Catholic Church is” - Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

 

[NotWorthy]

Those who don’t see the Blessed Virgin Mary’s glory are similar to the Isrealities. Recall when Moses came down and his face was glowing and they asked Moses to put a veil over his face because they could not even gaze at him.

The difference now is that instead of the people asking Moses to put the veil over his face, they have put the veil over their own. Just replace Moses with Mary’s person (since Mary is a greater intercessor than Moses was with his people ).

That might not be a good analogy. The Israelites turned from Moses face because they knew they were not worthy of looking upon a face that was radiating God’s glory.

I don’t think this is why Protestants turn away from our Mary, Queen of Heaven doctrine.

 

[Zooey]

Then you call David a fool, too, for he said the exact same words, “ask anything thing of me, for I will not refuse you”.

He refused her because she asked something he wouldn’t give. But Mary, the NT fulfillment of this OT Type, would never ask something of Jesus that would go against His wishes in the first place. She, unlike Bathsheba, understands her Lords wishes.

You still haven’t addressed my point on Divine Revelation, where God instructs Jeremiah to address the King and his Queen Mother. This shows God’s recognition of the queen mother’s role.

Jesus told the Pharisees that his kingdom is not of this world. He told many parables in Luke (as he was traveling to Jerusalem, and then in Jerusalem his final week) about a man that had to go to far away to receive his crown. Jesus was prophecying His own crowning in Heaven.

Please desist in this lie that Catholics place Mary over Jesus. If we place Mary as Queen of Heaven, it’s because we (in your own words) mistakenly place Christ as King.

Again, no one claims that the male child caught up to heaven is Mary. The male child caught up to heaven is Jesus. The woman, wearing a crown in the heavenly temple, who gave birth to Jesus, is Mary.

:clapping:

 

[Zooey]

I am going to resist the temptation to reference a specific person’s posts, out of the need to hold my not-inconsiderable Celtic temper.
However, simply as a general observation, let me say this:
I never fail to be amazed & shocked at the antics of some of the non-Catholic Christians in this world. After a lifetime of seeing/hearing the same, it is my considered opinion that, if the Catholic Church were to announce that Mary is NOT the Queen of Heaven sometime in the night, that a largenumber of said non-Catholic Christians would be here at CAF the first thing tomorrow morning–to declare & prove that, by jove, she is so the Queen of Heaven, & that all Catholic Christians are going straight to perdition if they don’t up & give the title back to her again.
Contrariness is the curse of those who refuse to reason without preconceived notions. It especially plagues those who are determined to prove that Catholics can’t possibly be right about anything*.*
Now, when I have a difference of opinion from a fellow believer, --as most of CAF will be glad to tell you-- I will have no problem expressing it.
What I refuse to do, is to disagree for the sheer joy of disagreeing. Especially when the only reason for the disagreement is a need to believe the opposite of someone on the other side of the Tiber.
But hey, that’s just me. (Besides, I’m still more than a little cranky over the fact that my washing machine died on me last week).
I’ll come down off my soapbox now, Mr Demille. It’s time for my close-up, & I have to go fish William Holden out of the swimming pool.

 

[Sheeniac]

This is somewhat off-topic, and I do apologize, but it struck me last week that Jesus had a “Jewish Mother”. It just made me think of her a little differently - as an American, it put a smile on my face. Even is she wasn’t formally recognized by the Church as Queen of Heaven, how could anyone not just love her?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I am having trouble finding the answer to this. Do we Catholics call Mary the Queen of Heaven? People of other denominations say she is a pagan goddess? and that the Queen of Heaven is a devil. What’s the truth?

It’s not people of other denoms its the old testament

 

[HailMary]

Mary is the Queen:

Rev 3:11:
Behold, I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no man take thy crown

crowns and thrones are those attributes which distinguish a persons role. Even thou this verse is talking about all Christians, it is of course very relevant for Our Lady

Rev 3:21
To him that shall overcome, I will give to sit with me in my throne: as I also have overcome, and am set down with my Father in his throne

Mary is the one creature who can successfully say she overcame all obstacles perfectly. Therefore she is sitting at the throne which makes her the highest one at the throne before God.

and also don’t forget
1 Cor 9:24
Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one

So effectively we all are crowned if we (God-willing) win the race of life get to share in the Throne of Christ.

Now Mary is distinguished in this manner because she was truly perfect( “So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:48 )

Not to mention the obvious in Rev 12:1

God Bless

 

[evangelist]

myfavoritmartin

So glad you started such a awesome thread.
I hope Catholic can fight their way out of this doctrine biblically .so it can be in the will of >God.

Amen

God Bless you
Shalom

 

[VociMike]

myfavoritmartin

So glad you started such a awesome thread.
I hope Catholic can fight their way out of this doctrine biblically…

Can’t be done. The bible requires this doctrine.

 

[NotWorthy]

It’s not people of other denoms its the old testament

Hey, martin, welcome back!!! Come on in the water’s fine.

Your first step might be explaining how the OT people worshipped a false goddess and called her the Queen of Heaven, that the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ has been turned into this same false goddess making all Catholics pagans.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Hey, martin, welcome back!!! Come on in the water’s fine.

Your first step might be explaining how the OT people worshipped a false goddess and called her the Queen of Heaven, that the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ has been turned into this same false goddess making all Catholics pagans.

Hey, NW your right about the OT using it on a heathen, It is a shame you guys attach this same name to our Saviours human mother.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hey, NW your right about the OT using it on a heathen, It is a shame you guys attach this same name to our Saviours human mother.

So we shouldn’t call our Lord, God, since the heathens used it on their idols?!?!?!

We shouldn’t call Jesus Messiah, because numerous people before Him made that claim?

This is a wierd custom.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hey, NW your right about the OT using it on a heathen, It is a shame you guys attach this same name to our Saviours human mother.

Let me take this one step at a time:

1. Do you accept the fact that the Kingdom of Israel had a queen mother, or Gebira, that it was a real title, and that it came with authority?
2. Do you accept the fact that God recognized the Gebira’s role? I cited this example from Jeremiah.
3. Did Christ receive His Kingship in Heaven, like the parables in Luke leading up to His Passion? After all, the thief did. What did he say? “Jesus, remember me, when you come into your kingdom”.

 

[LilyM]

Not just that - Jesus himself said to Pilate ‘my kingdom is not of this world’, in other words that HE is king, and in the heavenly kingdom, or do you deny this as well?

 

[NotWorthy]

1. Did Christ receive His Kingship in Heaven, like the parables in Luke leading up to His Passion? After all, the thief did. What did he say? “Jesus, remember me, when you come into your kingdom”.

Rats!!! I meant to say, “Do you accept that Christ received His Kingship…”

 

[apophasis]

NotWorthy:

Then you call David a fool, too, for he said the exact same words, “ask anything thing of me, for I will not refuse you”.

But your proof text was based on Adonijah’s words, fueled by his own conniving thoughts.

Not that it really matters, since Bathsheba was David’s wife and not his mother, but would you please provide for me the actual text where David says those exact words to Bathsheba? I have searched in vain to find them.

He refused her because she asked something he wouldn’t give. But Mary, the NT fulfillment of this OT Type,

Can you show me in the N.T. where any of the writers teach that Mary is this “Queen mother” anti-type? If Mary was to be the Divine anti-type, then how is it that this office was never established by Divine anointing, beginning with David’s mother? You never confront this important issue.

She, unlike Bathsheba, understands her Lords wishes.

If she, as intercessor/advocate for the people (as you assert), possesses full understanding (omniscience) of the Lord’s own mind concerning the needs of the people, then she has become far more than human. You have, in fact, made her equal with the Son.

It is one thing for an individual creature to enter into a constant, holy communion with the Lord, yet ever learning more about Him (which all true believers will enter into for all eternity), but quite another to assign a divine attribute (omniscience) to a mere creature. Predicating to her not only plenary knowledge of even the motives behind the millions of prayers addressed to her, but a plenary knowledge of the mind of the Son Himself. This, my friend, whether you want to admit it or not, is equality.

You still haven’t addressed my point on Divine Revelation, where God instructs Jeremiah to address the King and his Queen Mother.

Actually, you fail to address many of the issues I bring up, but mostly ignore them. But I’ll answer you anyway.

This shows God’s recognition of the queen mother’s role.

No it doesn’t. It’s only a recognition that the office (which Solomon instituted) wielded power in that corrupt, Southern kingdom, and the Lord was about to bring it downJer 13:18 "Say to the king and the queen mother, "Take a lowly seat, For your beautiful crown Has come down from your head."This in no way means God sanctioned the office. As I said, if this was an office established by God, then He would have begun with having Nathan the prophet anoint David’s mother “Queen.” But the fact remains, neither David’s mother or Solomon’s were Divinely anointed to such a position. It was all Solomon’s idea.

Jesus told the Pharisees that his kingdom is not of this world.

Yes, not of this “cosmos,” that is, not of this world system.

When Christ returns as “King of kings and Lord of lords” (Rev. 19:16) He will remove all ungodliness, bind Satan for 1000 years (Rev. 20) and set up His Kingdom on earth. It will be as the Hebrew prophets describe: a Kingdom of peace and righteousness; and in answer to the ancient prayer, “Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.” Very unlike this present hostile world system.

Please desist in this lie that Catholics place Mary over Jesus. If we place Mary as Queen of Heaven, it’s because we (in your own words) mistakenly place Christ as King.

Did I not say just that? I think I specifically used the word “inadvertently,” which means “without knowledge or intention.” But as you can see, error begets error.

 

[apophasis]

]
Again, no one claims that the male child caught up to heaven is Mary. The male child caught up to heaven is Jesus. The woman, wearing a crown in the heavenly temple, who gave birth to Jesus, is Mary.

NW, please re-read my post. I never said you claimed the male child is Mary. That would be absurd, indeed. What I said was it is the “sign” that was seen in Heaven, not the woman described in it. So Rev. 12 is not a description of Mary in Heaven. Get it? Nor is the woman said to be “in the heavenly temple,” as you claim.

In the heavenly sign it is not the woman who is caught up to God and to His throne, but the male child to whom the woman gives birth:Rev 12:5 "And she gave birth to a son, a male {child,} who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne."Obviously the woman gave birth to the male child on earth, since He is “caught up” to God and to His throne (cf. Rev. 3:21).

What the passage does not say is that the child was caught up to God’s throne to reign there. Nor does it say that the woman subsequently followed. But instead the woman continually remains on earth and is afterward pursued and persecuted by the dragon - both she and her “offspring” (a reference to Israel at the end of the age, just prior to the Christ’s return to this present earth, Matt. 24:3ff).

Now notice that the sign describes the male child as one who “is to rule the nations with a rod of iron.” The text does not say He is now ruling them from Heaven, but that He “is to” rule them in such a manner.

This iron rule over the nations on earth is yet future (see Rev. 19:11-16). And it is this future, earthly kingdom and throne Mary was told her Son would be given by God (Lk. 1:32-33); and Jesus still anticipates it in Rev. 3:21.

Hence, Christ is not now reigning on His Father’s throne as King of Heaven, but shares His throne functioning as the believer’s High Priest, always making intercession for them (Heb. 7:25, 9:24), and their “Advocate before the Father” if and when they sin (1 Jn. 2:1).

So since the Man Christ Jesus is not reigning on His Father’s throne as “King of Heaven,” Mary certainly cannot be reigning as Heaven’s “Queen.”

Jesus did not incarnate into this world to reign as “King of Heaven,” He was already Lord of Heaven and earth prior to taking on humanity. But He was born “King of the Jews” (Matt. 2:2) and He will return to reign on this earth as their King over all Israel and the Gentile nations. The Hebrew prophets describe this glorious event in great detail.