L
Linkowski
Guest
Did Pope John Paul II say this when he was shot?
Thanks,
Link
Thanks,
Link
- Status
W
water
Guest
I don’t know but I guess that you were trying to argue that “only Jesus save you” or do you have other reason for this thread? 
Am I wrong to say “My Guardian Angel protect me” when I was almost hit by a truck? Does this imply that I did not acknoweledge the protection of God?
When one says My Guardian Angel protects me, he/she indirectly implies God sent the angel to protect him/her.
By the way, my uncle was saved by a French missioner from drowning. Am I allowed to say so?
If your question is not all about this, then it is good - we have something new to discuss about.
Am I wrong to say “My Guardian Angel protect me” when I was almost hit by a truck? Does this imply that I did not acknoweledge the protection of God?
When one says My Guardian Angel protects me, he/she indirectly implies God sent the angel to protect him/her.
By the way, my uncle was saved by a French missioner from drowning. Am I allowed to say so?
If your question is not all about this, then it is good - we have something new to discuss about.
L
Linkowski
Guest
No…that is not why I am starting it. I would first like to know if this is the case (that the Pope indeed said this) and would also like to touch on why Mary is looked to as a refuge among many other things that contradict scripture. This also contradicts the usual answer that I get from Cathoics; that she is simply a prayer partner.
L
LilyM
Guest
I’ve never come across any indication that he said this, and I imagine that if he did he said plenty of other things as well, including ‘God save me’, ‘Jesus save me’. If I got caught up in some such disaster I’d probably call on my earthly mother and father and Mary as well as God and all the blessed angels and saints and anyone and everyone else who I could think of at the time.
Now remember that Jesus chose to come into the world not as a fully-grown parentless adult, which he could easily have done, but as a dependent child - dependent on Mary (and Joseph as well to a lesser extent). So in a very real, though inferior, sense, she absolutely helped to bring about our salvation by bringing about our Saviour himself.
If he could bring himself to place such faith in her, for the necessities of his own life, and allow her such influence over the very fate of humanity, then who are we to say that we can’t or shouldn’t trust her to the same extent??
Notice that when he’s found in the Temple he tells them, being the Son of God, he has to be about his father’s (God’s) business. And what is the first order of that business? To return with Mary and Joseph to Nazareth and be obedient to them. What makes you think that we are under any less an obligation?
Now remember that Jesus chose to come into the world not as a fully-grown parentless adult, which he could easily have done, but as a dependent child - dependent on Mary (and Joseph as well to a lesser extent). So in a very real, though inferior, sense, she absolutely helped to bring about our salvation by bringing about our Saviour himself.
If he could bring himself to place such faith in her, for the necessities of his own life, and allow her such influence over the very fate of humanity, then who are we to say that we can’t or shouldn’t trust her to the same extent??
Notice that when he’s found in the Temple he tells them, being the Son of God, he has to be about his father’s (God’s) business. And what is the first order of that business? To return with Mary and Joseph to Nazareth and be obedient to them. What makes you think that we are under any less an obligation?
D
Della
Guest
Considering your next statements, I have to say you are either deceiving us or yourself.
I never heard that he did. What he did say, though, was that he credited Our Lady with saving his life when he was shot. This is because the day he was shot was the anniversary of Mary’s appearance at Fatima and because he had taken Mary as his “prayer partner” or as we Catholics would put it, as his “patroness.”
No where in Scripture does it say that those in heaven cannot help us or pray for us. Please show us where it does.
That may be how some have explained it to you, but Mary’s role is that of a heavenly intercessor in the same way you or I may pray for one another, and so in that sense they are right. But she is more than that–she is also the “help of Christians” who has the ability, given to her by God, to aid us in our daily lives physically as well as spiritually. And that doesn’t violate Scripture, either.
6
6glargento
Guest
supposedly the 3rd secret of fatima says that the pope would be shot, this would make sence as to why he would have said this if he infact said it.
L
Linkowski
Guest
I am not sure how you can say this about what business he was to be attending to - with a straight face.
L
Linkowski
Guest
No where is scripture are we commanded TO ASK THEM TO PRAY FOR US. Please show me that.No where in Scripture does it say that those in heaven cannot help us or pray for us. Please show us where it does.
That may be how some have explained it to you, but Mary’s role is that of a heavenly intercessor in the same way you or I may pray for one another, and so in that sense they are right. But she is more than that–she is also the “help of Christians” who has the ability, given to her by God, to aid us in our daily lives physically as well as spiritually. And that doesn’t violate Scripture, either.
I will come back later and type up some quotes from Catholic documents about Mary and ask if she is merely an intercessor. She sounds like the fourth member of the Trinity to me…
L
LilyM
Guest
Luke 2:49 bud - KJV: “And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist(know) ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?”I am not sure how you can say this about what business he was to be attending to - with a straight face.
I don’t see what’s laughable about quoting the Bible nor about taking its words seriously. Jesus said he must be about his father’s work, and about his father’s work he was, from that moment on. Unless you’re suggesting he was doing anyone else’s work instead?
It’s clear that his father’s next bit of work or task, which occurs straight after this exchange, was for Jesus to return to Nazareth and place himself under obedience to Joseph and Mary.
He didn’t have to do so, under Jewish law he was an adult. There were probably 12-year old boys who were already married and with households of their own, just as there were 12-year-old girls. Not all, but definitely some of them.
G
GandalfTheWhite
Guest
We are not commanded to ask Mary or Saints to pray for us. Asking saints is “extracurricular” and is just like asking your sister to pray for you.
H
HailMary
Guest
Sure, and St. Paul was just a regular guy!
1 Corinthians 9:22
She is the Mother of Mercy, the Mother of our life, and of our Hope.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
From right here at Catholic Answers Library, “Praying to the Saints”:
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).
Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.
Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit” (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.
Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.
In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.
In Heaven and On Earth
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).
Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.
Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit” (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.
Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.
In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.
In Heaven and On Earth
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
S
Semper_Fi_1
Guest
I have never heard this, and what you more than likely heard was anti-Catholic allegations. Mary is not a deity and cannot save anyone.
H
HailMary
Guest
Sure, I just hope you are listening
Job 42:7-10
Alright. I think what you can gather from this is the following: God does not accept prayers of ALL equally and God will not accept the prayers of some in grave sin! Eliphaz and his two friends were unable to make amends with God UNLESS JOB PRAYED FOR THEM!!! Now, if you are like some, you will say that those three people were very wretched and you are not like them. That is great pride in yourself if you believe that. The way the Catholics see this is Job is the SAINT praying for US. Which makes us the sinners in this story. Jesus came for the sinners not the righteous, remember that! When you think of a hospital do you think of a place for sick people who a place to become better? Thus, this passage is yet another reason why it is biblical and necessary to confess in the Communion of Saints and to implore their prayers.
MARY ESPECIALLY
God Bless
S
Semper_Fi_1
Guest
We believe in Scripture and Tradition.No where is scripture are we commanded TO ASK THEM TO PRAY FOR US. Please show me that.
I will come back later and type up some quotes from Catholic documents about Mary and ask if she is merely an intercessor. She sounds like the fourth member of the Trinity to me…
That’s your problem if you think of her as a fourth member of the Trinity, which is linguisticly impossible and heretical. Popes in the past have condemned heretical groups which offered up cakes to Mary in the past.
And, there is no need for you to type up some quotes taken out of context from Catholics. We believe in Holy Scripture and in Sacred Tradition. No where in our Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scriptures is Mary deified. This gets old…
L
Linkowski
Guest
“O’ Virgin, most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none O’ Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee”
- Adiutricem Populi, Pope Leo VIII
H
HailMary
Guest
What else do you think the Holy Father is referring too except Jesus Christ?
L
Linkowski
Guest
The subject of the quotation is Mary and not Christ.
H
HailMary
Guest
Before you start reading the Holy Father’s encyclicals you have to have a well formed idea of what Catholic Theology is.
The world was unworthy to recieve Christ directly, so God the Father brought Jesus into the world, THROUGH, Mary.
The world was unworthy to recieve Christ directly, so God the Father brought Jesus into the world, THROUGH, Mary.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Was Christ born of anyone but Mary?
In that sense, anything that Christ has done ‘goes back’ to Mary’s fiat, though which she accepted the honor of bearing the Son of God.
But wait, there’s more. . .
Mary herself, chosen by God, was also ‘created’ by God. Therefore, any acknowledgment of Mary and her role as Mother of God–goes back to (drum roll). . .
GOD!
Golly gee. So any respect paid to Mary, any acknowledgment of the graces (including the grace of the bearing of her Son), anything that Mary has done and continues to do (living that she is, since God is God of the living, not the dead). . .
goes back to its ultimate source. . .
(another drum roll). . .
GOD.
In that sense, anything that Christ has done ‘goes back’ to Mary’s fiat, though which she accepted the honor of bearing the Son of God.
But wait, there’s more. . .
Mary herself, chosen by God, was also ‘created’ by God. Therefore, any acknowledgment of Mary and her role as Mother of God–goes back to (drum roll). . .
GOD!
Golly gee. So any respect paid to Mary, any acknowledgment of the graces (including the grace of the bearing of her Son), anything that Mary has done and continues to do (living that she is, since God is God of the living, not the dead). . .
goes back to its ultimate source. . .
(another drum roll). . .
GOD.
- Status