Mary - sinner - Romans 3?

[pablope]

Coptic Christian,

The word of God is very clear in that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven and it is also written that there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.

Maybe you read all these web sites that you offer me to read but I stick to the Bible and only the Bible.

Sometimes when you bring out the truth it riles those who know they are wrong.
You can’t be nice to some folk.

Frank…let me ask you this…where in the Bible does it say what or which is the pillar and foundation of truth?

And where does it say in the Bible that the word of God is limited to the written word?

Could you educate us ignorant catholics by citing the book, chapter and verse where this are in the Bible?

 

[Marybeloved]

Frank, this is what I wrote,

Mary did not have to Marry Jesus to be the New Eve. She just had to be the first woman on the new order of grace, to get the same privileges Eve got and to obey instead of disobey- To co-operate rather than mislead.

We call her Eve, because Jesus called her “woman”, as you pointed out, and “Woman” is what God called Eve, just read Genesis. We call her Eve because when Adam and Eve fell, God promised that it was the seed of the woman that would crush the serpent’s head- We know the Serpent is Satan, we know the seed and crusher is Jesus, therefore we know that the woman prophesied is Mary. Again, Jesus himself kept calling her “woman” as you pointed out. If he had merely wanted to show she was not that special as you believe, he would have called her by her name “Mary”.

But just as She is “Full of grace” and not just Mary to God the Father, She is “The Lord’s Mother” and not just Mary to mankind as revealed by the Holy Spirit to St. Elizabeth, she is “woman” and not just Mary, to Jesus- It was God who declared that the “woman” would be a mother and not a wife, when he said the seed of the woman. He also put a permanent enmity between her and her seed and the serpent- Another indication of Mary’s sinlessness.

So we see this “woman” as referred to in Genesis as Eve, then prophesied by God as mother of the serpent-crusher, then the serpent-crusher is born of Mary and he calls her “woman” and not mother or Mary, then in revelations 12, she shows up again- A spectacle of a"woman" that is clothed in the sun, crown of stars, moon under her feet- And she’s pregnant and giving birth to a son who is the enemy of the dragon and the dragon becomes also the enemy of the woman. The son is Jesus, only one woman gave birth to him, her name is Mary. I hope you don’t keep saying you haven’t been answered, now.

Peace!

You say you can see where we get the ideas about the woman being Mary, but you don’t agree. That’s honest of you and I appreciate it- Now we are having a discussion. You say you disagree because there’s nothing after her birth. But there is! Revelations says she has other children and these are the believers of her son- She’s our Mother just as Jesus gave her to st. John at the cross. What is your opinion?

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Dear ignorant Catholic,
(as you call yourself)

First Timothy 3:15 says the church is the pillar and ground of of the truth.
But not every church that is standing is truly the church.

The Lord said the body is the temple.
he also said that the light of the body is the eye.
Of which he said let not that light be darkness.
Many churches are full of darkness.
And many that have come in the name of Christ are not his.

Paul even wrote of Diotrephes which loved to have the preeminence among men.
There are many of them out there today so I do not trust everyone.
Since the soul has one of two destinations I don’t blindly trust every Tom, Dick and Harry that claims to belong to the “true church.”

Of your second question the word of God is not bound.
And as I just posted I was going to stop for the sake of peace but before I could here comes another one wanting an argument.

The word is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
So what have you just shown about your heart with that haughty slap in the face?
A member of the true pillar and ground of the truth?
Interesting.

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Marybeloved,
I can see where you may get these views and it is admirable.

My concern is that Paul wrote that the New Jerusalem above is the mother of us all.

While I can agree that Mary was blessed in her role as the Lord’s mother while on earth I feel some exalt her above measure.

 

[Marybeloved]

Frank, who are you talking to? Who is ignorant catholic?

 

[Marybeloved]

Marybeloved,
I can see where you may get these views and it is admirable.

My concern is that Paul wrote that the New Jerusalem above is the mother of us all.

While I can agree that Mary was blessed in her role as the Lord’s mother while on earth I feel some exalt her above measure.

Ok, fair enough.

Our Catholic view is that the New Jerusalem is clearly called in the last chapter of Revelations (or is it the 2nd last?) the bride of Christ which is clearly the Church. The Church is also definitely “mother” to Catholics, perhaps you’ve heard the reference: ‘Holy mother church’, by Catholics? So St. Paul’s calling the church mother fits perfectly with catholic theology. But there can be many mothers! Also, the Church never gave birth to Christ- In fact, it’s Christ who gives rise to the church, not the other around. So the woman must refer to someone else- Only one gave birth to Christ, and he names her “woman”. So for us, the woman is Mary first, as glorified by God in heaven, and she represents the church as well. In catholic theology, Mary is often seen as a symbol for the church which is feminine, like her.

Peace!

 

[pablope]

Dear ignorant Catholic,

(as you call yourself)

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Marybeloved,

Pablope was the one with the snide remark.

As for what you wrote.
I can see things in a spiritual light as well.
For example:

In 1st Corinthians the word of God says that Christ is the wisdom and power of God.
Therefore we see Jesus Christ as our wisdom and the wise Son of a King, eternal and only wise God.
If we go back to 1 Kings 2:19 we see that Solomon the wisest king on earth called for a seat to be brought that his mother could sit at his right hand.
This would bear witness to a queen at the side of the Lord in heaven.

But, even so this train of thought is only profitable in the hearts of all that have not made her a god.
Sadly, many pray to Mary as though without her the Lord will not hear them. While you may not, many have exalted her that far.
Some say that if you are not Catholic you are damned not even realizing that the parts of Jesus body was written before this world was formed. Those parts Paul spake of so I won’t go into that.

 

[pablope]

Frank, who are you talking to? Who is ignorant catholic?

ha ha ha…he was referring to me…in post 270( ithink).

 

[BigFellaMick]

Dear ignorant Catholic,
(as you call yourself)

First Timothy 3:15 says the church is the pillar and ground of of the truth.
But not every church that is standing is truly the church.

You are correct. The Catholic Church is the “only” Church that message refers too as the Catholic Church is the ONLY Church built by Jesus Christ Himself. No offense to you or your congregation but your church as well as all protestant/non-denominational churches were built by men, no exceptions. The Catholic Church was created by God. Hence the Bible.

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Pablope,

I am very sure of the church I attend. There is no question about that.

The problem I have with Catholicism is the Pope.
Nowhere do I read that Paul or Peter was a Pope.

One point I was trying to make is that there may very well be a Catholic church out there that has a Godly minister but like all other churches I will never believe all of them have one.
Neither will I believe that all Catholics are saved.
Neither will I believe that every Catholic attending a Mass or whatever is doing it out of a pure heart as defined by scripture.

Hope this answers your questions.

 

[Frank_Hagen]

BigFellaMick,

As I pointed out in my post above there are things about Catholic churches that do not line up with scripture.

I do not read of a Pope.
Neither do I read where Peter was the Pope of a Catholic church.

 

[Marybeloved]

Frank, Pablope, everyone…goodnight! It’s been exhausting. If this thread is still goin on in the morning…well, I’ll see if my (name removed by moderator)ut is required.

Peace!

 

[pablope]

Pablope,

I am very sure of the church I attend. There is no question about that.

 

[jediliz]

BigFellaMick,

As I pointed out in my post above there are things about Catholic churches that do not line up with scripture.

I do not read of a Pope.
Neither do I read where Peter was the Pope of a Catholic church.

in Acts of the Apostles, it shows that Peter was one of the ones that always spoke to the people.

And the canon of the new testament was not put together until the later part of the 300s… There wasn’t a bible to follow! And before the printing press, the bible was HAND COPIED…so very few owned a bible and literacy was not very common.

Have you ever actually BEEN to a Catholic Mass? Scott Hahn was taught all kinds of things, too. But then he actually WENT to a Mass to observe and found many things read directly from the bible: the readings from SCRIPTURE (old testament, psalm, new testament letter generally from Paul, AND a Gospel reading.) There were even things he recognized from the book of Revelation (Lamb of God)

Jesus founded ONE Church and he gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom. He made Peter the leader of the new faith. Matthew 16:19 I believe.

Jesus also gave the authority to forgive and retain sins, to the apostles. Its IN the Gospel of John, one of the post Resurrection passages.

Nowhere in the bible does it mention ALTAR calls or “all future sins as well as past and present sins are automatically forgiven when you accept Jesus”. It also says that ENTIRE households, which generally included CHILDREN (and yes, that means babies or toddlers) were baptized.

btw, since NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD, referring to this topic which is asking if Mary is a sinner as the Romans chapter says all have sinned,God would never choose an impure vessel to carry HIS ONLY SON, so its very possible for GOD to decide that the mother of HIS SON could be preserved from ORIGINAL SIN of our first parents, to prepare her for that day when she would say YES to carrying the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.

 

[gerhardc]

St. Peter said in Acts 2:38*** Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins***. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Great verse. I like it too. I guess the important aspect for me is that baptism is irrelevant if repentance has not taken place: “Repent and be baptized”. Without true repentance there is no effective baptism. It is not the baptism that does it for you. Refer John the Baptist who preached repentance so as to be baptised.

St Paul also says in Romans 6:4 that: We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Again, I like that verse too. Great reference. However, refer what St. Paul is saying before that passage. He is talking about God’s grace through Christ, and that the sins of those who are renewed in Him do not (deliberately) sin any longer: “God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant. So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God’s wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (5:20-21).

St. Paul is saying that sin is overcome by grace if we are in Christ Jesus. From Acts 2:38 you quoted above we know that you need to repent and be baptised in Christ to receive the grace spoken about here.

Our Lord himself is the source of the Apostles’ teaching.

In case anybody is watching, this is why we call the writings of Paul and Peter and John and Mark and Jude the word of God. Jesus is God. Jesus’ words are God’s word. And, “Our Lord himself is the source of the Apostles’ teaching” (Marybeloved). This is why the Bible is the word of God. But, I digress.

He says clearly in St. John’s Gospel 3:5*** “I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God’s kingdom without ***being begotten of water and Spirit”

I love that passage. He’s not only talking about being baptised in water, He is also talking about the need to be born of the Spirit, which is to be “born again”:* “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”* (John 3:3). So, water baptism isn’t ‘what does the trick’. Being born again is what does the trick proven by water baptism.

Clearly no empty ritualism is taught here, meant only for show, but an actual means of forgiving sins (through repentance of my sins or even my attempt to earn my grace)(my addition)), receiving the new life of Christ, receiving the Holy Ghost, and receiving salvation! Jesus did not institute mere rituals without any power, similar to what he himself condemned the Pharisees for, but a true means of salvation (here salvation means only unmerited justification or new life of grace- not an absolute guarantee to heaven).

Thank God for that. You’re right. He has always ***primarily *** (note the emphasis please!) been after our **hearts **not our hands: *“These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.” *(Matthew 15:8). If your hands are all for Him (in service) and your heart is not with Him (in true faith), your works mean little.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

And he also chose to save her from all Sin at the moment of her conception. HAIL MARY FULL OF GRACE.

You have absolutely nothing to verify this statement.

So you are correct Richard while you nor anyone else knows the MIND of God we do know what he reveals to us through the Church that he appeared to on the day of Pentecost. Which is the RCC.

Rom.8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh. The sinful flesh He came in the likeness of was Mary’s sinful flesh.

Rom.3
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The righteousness of Christ is imparted by the gift of grace through faith in the remission of sins. If Mary was concieved without sin and never sinned in her life. She had no need of faith in Christs atoning sacrifice and therefore could not be full of grace as the angel said.

With that said it is revealed to the Church that Mary is FULL OF GRACE, so that means there is no sin.

Rom.5
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

If she had no sin Christ did not die for her. She is not justified by His blood and she is not reconciled by the death of her son, therefore she could not be full of grace.

Are you full of God’s Grace Richard?

Yes.

Have you ever sinned?

Yes

God choose to save Mary from any kind of Sin so that she would be Spotless and Pure for the SOn of Man to enter into her womb.

God chose to save us all from our sins even His mother by the blood of His Son.

Richard why would God not do this? Why does it shock you so?

Why would He do it? I’m not shocked. Just a little tired.

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Folks, it is time for me to sign off for today.
As I said there are some areas where the Catholic church does not line up with scripture.
Those areas are not about Mary being sinless but what I do have is in answer to Marybeloved as she asked my thoughts on some things.

I’ll post them tomorrow or the next day should I not get back in time from some running I have to do.

Take care.

 

[CopticChristian]

Dear ignorant Catholic,
(as you call yourself)

First Timothy 3:15 says the church is the pillar and ground of of the truth.
But not every church that is standing is truly the church.
The Lord said the body is the temple.
he also said that the light of the body is the eye.
Of which he said let not that light be darkness.
Many churches are full of darkness.
And many that have come in the name of Christ are not his.

Paul even wrote of Diotrephes which loved to have the preeminence among men.
There are many of them out there today so I do not trust everyone.
Since the soul has one of two destinations I don’t blindly trust every Tom, Dick and Harry that claims to belong to the “true church.”

Of your second question the word of God is not bound.
And as I just posted I was going to stop for the sake of peace but before I could here comes another one wanting an argument.

The word is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
So what have you just shown about your heart with that haughty slap in the face?
A member of the true pillar and ground of the truth?
Interesting.

So then, which Church is the mystery hidden for all ages, which Church is the Body of Christ and if the Body of Christ, and Christ is the same yesterday, today and tommorow, which Church is and which Churches arent the ones that are standing that are truly the Church.

You can start by eliminating those that started in strip malls and work backwards.

 

[adrift]

Folks, it is time for me to sign off for today.
As I said there are some areas where the Catholic church does not line up with scripture.
Those areas are not about Mary being sinless but what I do have is in answer to Marybeloved as she asked my thoughts on some things.

I’ll post them tomorrow or the next day should I not get back in time from some running I have to do.

Take care.

It is your misunderstanding of scripture not the Catholic Church that does not line up.