Mary - sinner - Romans 3?

[jediliz]

Since NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with GOD…I would think he would want his ONLY SON to be born of a PURE VESSEL. She said YES to GOD when the Angel delivered the message that she would conceive and bear the MESSIAH! Implying that JESUS’ OWN MOTHER is a SINNER is an INSULT TO* HIM*!

**I think the reason some hate that Catholics believe that Mary was not a sinner is because they think Cathol8ics elevate to divine status, just because of the belief she was conceived IMMACULATELY. She was chosen by GOD before her birth! NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD!

 

[Nicea325]

RevG:

For you to imply that I am limiting God is an insult that I do not take lightly. I have not tried to limit God in any way.

My apologies,I did not mean to insult you.

What I have done is point out what God has already said in Scripture. I did not make the exception for Jesus, Scripture did that. I did not include Mary in the “all” of Romans 3:23, again Scripture did that too.

Yes and you also seem to either ignore or dodge the fact Jesus was also 100% human,so where does Rom 3:23 explicitly state to exclude Jesus? Does Rom 3:23 also apply to infant babies? A mentally retared child or person?

God can do whatever God wants to, that is His prerogative for being God, but He has revealed to us through Scripture how He works, if you disagree with what God said in the Bible, then you need to re-examine your theology.

EXACTLY! So why are Protestants so admant and so confident Mary could have not been without original sin? What certitude do Protestants have that God did not or would not do such a task? So I think it is you who needs to re-examine your theology and at Scripture from an entire context from the front cover to the last cover.

If you want to hurl insults and generalizations it would be better for you to keep your opinions to yourself.

Insults? Opinions? I find it more of an insult what a lack of respect many non-Catholics display for the MOTHER our God…Jesus.

Getting offended and making blanket misrepresentations about things you are obviously unfamiliar with is rude and offensive.

Unfamilar with? Speaking of insults? I am very aware of what I am discussing here,perhaps you have the slighest clue as to what you say?

You did not take issue with Protestantism, you took issue with God and His Holy Bible, when that happens you should adjust your understanding to meet his teachings.

I beg your pardon? You go ballistic and claim I make blanket misrepresentations? My issue is not with God,but the errors of Protestanism.

 

[Rich494]

To that logic most non-catholics will simply say: Jesus was also fully God, unlike every other human, making Him the exception to the rule. Why His mother couldn’t be the exception to the rule as well, makes no sense to me, at all.

I guess the point of the thread is: scripture is not always so cut and dried; Scripture needs someone to settle matters such as these; Observational questions such as these are impossible to resolve.

How is that possible to resolve the matter without God’s (name removed by moderator)ut?

How do we go about getting God’s (name removed by moderator)ut regarding observational questions such as this - is the bigger question?

The catholic answer is - we go about getting God’s (name removed by moderator)ut regarding observational questions such as this via HIS church.

The protestant answer is, I think - we can’t know for sure… If I am wrong then please clarify?

 

[theophilus1985]

Is Romans 3:23 referring to actual or original sin? If actual sin, that one must exclude not only Mary but also infants who dies prematurely and the severely disabled. If original sin, that why does it say “all have sinned”? Furthermore Mary would have fallen under the curse of original sin had not God in His Mercy and in light of the Cross redeemed her from the moment of her conception. She did not (nor could she) do anything to earn the graces which God lavished upon her. Can’t God do whatever He wants with what is His? Ought we to begrudge Him His generosity?
Many protestants have the mistaken notion that Mary’s holiness gives her a divine status. Thus they will go to any lengths, even abusing Scripture, in order to sully her name. When I was a protestant, I remember being taught that certain verses such as Luke 8:21 or 11:27-28 proved that she was a sinner, else why would Jesus publicly rebuke her, granted in a passive-aggressive manner? Not only do these verse say nothing of the kind, I was inadvertently attributing sin (failure to honor one’s mother) to Jesus!
Mary’s Immaculate Conception should give us hope as her Savior is also able to purify even hardened sinners.

Finally a note from St. Augustine to share with you protestant inquirer:

“We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question what it touches the subject of sins, out of honor to the Lord; for from him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear him who undoubtedly had no sin. Well then, if, with this exception of the Virgin, we could only assemble together all the forementioned holy men and women, and ask them whether they lived without sin while they were in this life, what can we suppose would be their answer.” [Nature and Grace 36:42 (AD 415)]

 

[joe370]

I am not going to quote anyone here since there are so many to respond to. When one interprets the Bible they must go back to the original languages, if you can not read Greek in this case then you must rely on a trustworthy commentary. I can assume that you will use a Catholic one, but a real scholar of the Word will seek varying views in commentaries to gain a proper understanding of the context of the passage. The key word here is context. In Bible translation there are several ways to interpret words based on the semantic range of the word. Context determines translation not your theology or the churches theology. The Bible is infallible we need to seek what it says in context and then adjust our own theology to fit the Bible, not try to fit the Bible to our theology.
Now that being said, The all in Romans 3:23 is intended to cover all. The Bible gives exception to Jesus by explicitly saying He is without sin. God gives Jesus exclusion from Romans 3:23 by the fact that Jesus is without sin according to Scripture. The Bible does not at any point ever say that Mary was sinless. This has nothing to do with original sin. One can argue that was the reason for the virgin birth, but that argument has gone on for centuries and will not be solved here. The question was does all include Mary, and according to Scripture she is included since there is no place that says Mary was sinless. The all does not include Jesus since Scripture is again clear He is without sin.
What you are trying to do when you argue that Mary is exempt is called an argument from silence. The argument for her being included is an argument from the text.

Are you sure about the word all? Let’s apply that same logic to the following verses:

Did all the world go after Christ in the following verse?

“… the whole world has gone after him” John 12:19

Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in the Jordan?

“All of Judea, including all the people of Jerusalem, went out to see and hear John. And when they confessed their sins, he baptized them in the Jordan River.” Mark

Did Caesar tax the people from India, China, and South America in the following verse? Matthew 2:3

“And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.” Luke 2:1

“When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him”

Every single person in Jerusalem???

What about: “ … Then all the disciples left him [Jesus] and fled.” Matthew 26:56

John followed Christ all the way to the cross.

Did the whole world lieth in the wicked one in the following verse?

“Ye are of God, little children”, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one”. 1 John 5:19

Romans 15: “I myself am satisfied about you, my brethren, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to instruct one another.”

Of course only God has “all” knowledge.

If “all” in the preceding verses allow for exceptions then surely “all” in Romans 3:23 can allow for exceptions too - yes, no, maybe?

Your thoughts friend?

 

[stevekehl]

I think this issue of Mary’s sinless/sinful state has caused Christians to slide into Phariseeism. For Catholics, the doctrine of Mary never sinning has become a rule that must be believed in order to be in good standing with the Church. But then how did Mary escape original sin must be explained, so the Immaculate Conception becomes a rule that must be believed to be in good standing with the Church, neither of which has anything to do with salvation. Protestants (some of whom seem a little obsessed with this belief) point to Romans 3:23 and say all includes Mary. Then they have to contend with does all mean everyone, does it mean all those being addressed by the letter to Romans, or does all mean those who read this verse, does all mean the same in other verses (as a previous poster has pointed out)? Again, this has nothing to do with our salvation.
To clarify, in the third Chapter of Romans Paul is explaining that the Jewish Christians shouldn’t look down on their former-pagan brothers and sisters because everyone sins and must be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.
Personally, I still think Mary was a sinner (I can’t think of a gentler way to say it). I won’t quote any Scripture, but God has always used fallen, broken, humble, obedient, sinful, beautiful people to do miraculous things. If you choose to believe the same, or different, God Bless you. Just don’t be a stumbling block to a fellow believer.

 

[Marybeloved]

I think this issue of Mary’s sinless/sinful state has caused Christians to slide into Phariseeism. For Catholics, the doctrine of Mary never sinning has become a rule that must be believed in order to be in good standing with the Church. But then how did Mary escape original sin must be explained, so the Immaculate Conception becomes a rule that must be believed to be in good standing with the Church, neither of which has anything to do with salvation. Protestants (some of whom seem a little obsessed with this belief) point to Romans 3:23 and say all includes Mary. Then they have to contend with does all mean everyone, does it mean all those being addressed by the letter to Romans, or does all mean those who read this verse, does all mean the same in other verses (as a previous poster has pointed out)? Again, this has nothing to do with our salvation.

Hello, Steve- I appreciate what you’re trying to do here, but you betray a certain bias yourself which I’m sure is not intentional.

Saying that Mary’s sinlessness has “become a rule” that measures “one’s standing with the Church” implies that it is a newly developed belief down the centuries that now poses a stumbling block- That is simply not true! Until the last few centuries, no Christian had ever believed that Mary was anything but sinless or that she had any other Children after Christ! Only one heretic taught the former (other children) relatively late (about the 5th Century) due to the same error in understanding as his modern day counter-parts- " He did not know her until…" And the same fathers who chose the scriptures demolished his novelty and false assumptions over the word “until”. Despite the different divisions in Christendom in the 1st and 2nd millenia that created the different groups, this belief is simply universal and can be traced to the earliest christian writings- universal, that is, until the last 2/3 centuries! You can’t just make a belief a rule of faith that is universal from antiquity- It was always believed, always a rule of faith .

So it seems clear to us that it is Protestants in the last few centuries who have invented a new doctrine/belief, and made it into a rule of faith! And now they seek to justify it from the same scripture that has been used by all these ancient groups for millenia and never found to teach anything that they think they read there about Mary’s presumed sinfulness-it simply isn’t there!.

 

[rikkk1958]

Personally, I still think Mary was a sinner (I can’t think of a gentler way to say it). I won’t quote any Scripture, but God has always used fallen, broken, humble, obedient, sinful, beautiful people to do miraculous things. If you choose to believe the same, or different, God Bless you. Just don’t be a stumbling block to a fellow believer.

That is what you think. “Man’s knowledge is also not required for salvation”.

This is why we got the Virgin Mary’s Doctrine from the scripture, simply to say that it is there to proclaim it. God saved Mary before she falls into sin. “Hail, FULL OF GRACE”, the TITLE proclaimed to her by the angel of the Lord. She was the handmaid and the mother of the Lord, the vessel (the Ark) for the coming of the new covenant, the Word that is the Lord Jesus Christ. She will be called blessed for all generations.

Read and you will find. For nothing is impossible with God

 

[Good_Fella]

I think this issue of Mary’s sinless/sinful state has caused Christians to slide into Phariseeism. For Catholics, the doctrine of Mary never sinning has become a rule that must be believed in order to be in good standing with the Church.

Rule applies to law, not doctrine. The prohibition on divorce and remarriage is a rule that Catholics must follow to remain in good standing with the Church. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for rigorously applying the letter of the Mosaic law to the smallest detail at the expense of human dignity while violating the spirit of the law themselves. I fail to see how you can draw an analogy between the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and the promulagtion of Church dogma in the matter of faith. What God has revealed through His Church must be believed in by all Christians for the sake of His majesty and the unity of faith which our Lord desires and prayed for while still among us. For this reason Jesus established one visible and hierarchical Church with a central teaching authority (Magisterium) on the foundatin of Peter and the Apostles. And He expects us to obey the leaders He has appointed to feed His sheep.

But then how did Mary escape original sin must be explained, so the Immaculate Conception becomes a rule that must be believed to be in good standing with the Church, neither of which has anything to do with salvation.

Contesting an obvious divine truth is a sin against the Holy Spirit for those of us who should know better.This was the deadly sin of the scribes and Pharisees together with the sin of presumption.

Protestants (some of whom seem a little obsessed with this belief) point to Romans 3:23 and say all includes Mary…To clarify, in the third Chapter of Romans Paul is explaining that the Jewish Christians shouldn’t look down on their former-pagan brothers and sisters because everyone sins and must be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.

More accurately, both Jews and Gentiles tend to sin. As I pointed out above, Paul does not intend to say that every single human being has sinned. If he does, then we wouldn’t have the Greek word pantes for “all”.

Personally, I still think Mary was a sinner (I can’t think of a gentler way to say it). I won’t quote any Scripture, but God has always used fallen, broken, humble, obedient, sinful, beautiful people to do miraculous things. If you choose to believe the same, or different, God Bless you. Just don’t be a stumbling block to a fellow believer.

Only God can judge who is a sinner on an individual basis. God did call a woman who was implicated in the sin of Adam, and so He intervened by preserving her free from the stain of original sin - the privation of holiness and justice - at the first instance of her conception, because she was predestined to be the Mother of our divine Lord. It was in honour of the Son that Mary was granted this singular privilege. The dogma rests on the argument of what is fitting. So it’s better to believe in the IC than not to. One stumbles by rejecting what is more reasonable and proper.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[KathleenGee]

RevG…I went to a Baptist church on invitation from our Baptist neighbor when I was in the third grade…went with my mother.

The church ambient was akin to a secular meeting hall. There was an American flag in there. The minister was wearing a business suit and he had his Bible with him. He got up, looked over at us…and began calling the Catholic Church the work of the devil, shouting and yelling.

I thought he was doing the devil’s work.

Actually, the Church is full of scholars…but what is more important is that the Catholic church is apostolic…meaning we interpret Sacred Scripture as understood in the Oral Tradition by Jesus Christ and given to us through His apostles, the only chosen witnesses Christ had.

So what we listen to primarily is Jesus Christ through His apostles and His successors more than scholars, because as Scripture says pride cometh before the fall.

Catholics look at Jesus Christ as the Messiah, the fulfillment of the mission of the Jews, God’s chosen people. We follow the ten commandments, we avoid idolatry, we try to be faithful to The Word Made Flesh…fulfilled in the Eucharist. We continue in worship as the Jews, that ours is divinely inspired and not man made.

We do not focus too much on the figures of the Old Testament. We hear about them at Mass and in our studies. But we consider Jesus Christ so awesome that He is the one through which the universe was made…the Eternal Word, He resurrected from the dead breaking the power of sin and death, and Made All Things New.

Consequently, Catholicism is based on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ in context of the whole of Sacred Scripture…our faith drawn from a gathering of living, breathing human beings, and not having our faith reduced to a book form.

If Jesus Christ thought book form was most critical, then He would have performed miracles and gave people the Bibles.

So…we do not have our preachers get up and start denouncing other Christians. The Bible is to direct and guide us and give us new life through Christ. Our faith is progressive, and we see God’s Word and His Eucharist intended to be shared for all people.

Subsequently, we find our righteousness not in ourselves or our way of looking at the Bible, but in Jesus Christ alone.

 

[KathleenGee]

And…if we consider Christ as God made Man…Who left us His church…Who made all things new, we now have the Church as the continuation of Sacred Scripture…but now in the form of Word Made Flesh…

Our ancient liturgies focus on the Word and the Eucharist since the beginning…faith into practice, receiving the flesh of Jesus Who said that finding nourishment in Him would provide us eternal life.

And this communion of believers gave way to Eucharistic practice of faith. And we are witness to the communion of saints and a spirituality that goes along with it. The Church has drawn on scholars throughout time in its past 2,000 years who have documented and analyzed those who have lived saintly lives.

There is a scholarly discipline of sainthood. And reflecting for almost 2,000 years, the Church finally came to the conclusion that Mary was created at her beginning by God Himself to be sinless. A human being cannot create a sinless human being. Only God can. And without studying scholarly teachings on Eucharistic sanctity, its consistency down through the ages…where many, many Christians chose virginity and celibacy for Christ, and many others dying for Him…it is an area of discipline that must be studied…

You have to look at the history of the saints in the Church, you have to learn about the interventions of the Blessed Mother that began within 200 years of her life, and that there is the tradition of Mary’s first nuance in the Book of Kings in the time of Elijah, who was waiting for rain to fall…who was looking at out the sea for 7 days during a great drought over Israel…and finally saw a small cloud, as small as a hand rising from the sea that grew into a great cloud that finally brought rain to the land.

Mary…Sea of Grace…Maria, the Latin form of Miriam…from ‘bitter’ to Sea of Grace.

Mary is Christian Par Excellence.

So you can’t understand Scripture on its own. You have to look at the faith of the people and how it was practiced from ancient times, how it went forward, the challenges the faith of the people had, how the Church guided, ameliorated situations, the trials and sufferings the Church itself continued to endure all down through the ages…in context of Sacred Scripture…this other part…is called Tradition.

So Scripture and Tradition–how the faith is authentically lived out in Christ through the Apostles’ teachings and successors…protected and guided by the Holy Spirit…is how we have come to believe in Mary, conceived without sin. It takes alot of scholarly and sincere study to learn about Mary, who did not have the same constitution we have, but is nevertheless, our greatest advocate, especially at death.

 

[gkoomen]

When I was a Protestant, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was one of the main stumbling blocks, keeping me from the Catholic Church. Now I wonder how I could have ever had such a problem. If Mary was a sinner, then Jesus Christ was born a sinner - inheriting that from His Mother. The rest of us all got the disease that way. Her DNA was in every cell of His body. His precious Blood was derived from her body. Did that blood, shed on Calvary have the taint of sin, inherited from His Mother? Unthinkable!!! God created His own Mother - and He did it right! And I am deeply grateful to God for bringing me into the Church, where there is final authority concerning truth.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes,…Mary is the link between God and man…she gave her flesh and blood to the Lord…and think how we are receiving something of her when we receive the Eucharist…

How one cannot acknowledge Mary considering the reality of what she did is understandable to a non-Catholic Christian…but when you begin to think of her for her ‘yes’, her Fiat, then one can only have more questions about her and seek to understand her more regarding her place among believers.

Just to say yes, she was a great lady who was the mother of Christ, with no other reflection, is hard for Catholics to witness that. But Mary is Christ’s gift to His church, and it is Mary who makes our Church a family.

And when we come to know her, what a grace that is, and leads us to more search for the truth of God. There are Catholics who were raised in the faith, but as of yet, have not come to know Mary. And a priest told me the strongest Catholics for their faith are those who know Mary.

You are blessed to know her and her continued work in the Church and the world.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Yes,…Mary is the link between God and man…she gave her flesh and blood to the Lord…and think how we are receiving something of her when we receive the Eucharist…

Hello Kathleen

The only “link between God and man” is God’s Son Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 10
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

 

[rikkk1958]

Hello Kathleen

The only “link between God and man” is God’s Son Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 10
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

We have no problem of what you are saying here.

 

[rikkk1958]

However, Elizabeth greeted Mary as the Mother of the Lord. Jesus is fully human and fully God. The link of Mary to the Lord is being the mother, the source of flesh and blood. Only Jesus can mediate man to God Mary being the closest being to the Lord can intercede for us. She did it at the wedding in Cana and she will do it again for all generation, and we shall call her Blessed. “The prayer of the righteous is very powerful” How wonderful it is to ask Mary to pray for us.

I know that you will answer back, why not pray directly to God. The scriptures is clear about praying by those who are already in Heaven for our sake. Like any mother, the Blessed Mary will pray for us and ask the Lord in our behalf. There is nothing wrong in our devotion to the Mother of God. The Rosary we pray everyday is our offering to her, like a bouquet of flowers, and besides, the Rosary is full of life of the Lord reminding us of who and what He did for us. There is nothing evil in praying for the goodness and in the name of God.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

However, Elizabeth greeted Mary as the Mother of the Lord. Jesus is fully human and fully God. The link of Mary to the Lord is being the mother, the source of flesh and blood.

You are so right that Mary is the source of Jesus flesh.

Rom.8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

And doesn’t this verse identify that flesh as “sinful flesh”?

Only Jesus can mediate man to God Mary being the closest being to the Lord can intercede for us.

Isn’t mediate and intercede the same thing?

 

[KathleenGee]

Don’t project sinful on something that was made pure.

The Acts of the Apostles, the Letters, the Book of Revelation…they were setting up foundation of faith and practice, of persevering, and that Christ had already overcome the world.

Yes, Mary is the link between God and creation.

Catholic teachings defines Christ as the One through which the universe was created. But Christ was still Spirit.

Christ was in the substance of Spirit, in communion with Father. But He was not Man. Christ was not Man at the time of Adam and Eve. His substance was not Man until Mary said Yes – her fiat – to God through the angel to become the Mother of the Messiah.

If Mary said no, we would not have Christ. Alot of significance to Mary there. We owe Mary our gratitude in that being made free and with intellect, made in the image of God, she said yes even when she knew not how this would happen.

Is she singular and necessary for our salvation? Yes! Through her works? Only through her ‘yes’. But her own righteousness? No. God chose her, He formed her. God is the author of Mary’s freedom from sin and the Lord Jesus could not conceive and grown in sinful temple…for He has zeal for the Temple and our bodies likewise, in faith, our temples of the Holy Spirit. Mary’s created being chose Christ at her conception; she was ‘saved’ at her conception, free from sin.

Sin is the great enslaver, the great separation from God that only God can restore.

Note that Jesus referred to Himself more often as the Son of Man. He came after Man, born of him, to serve him as prophet, Messiah, and Savior, and as the Tree of Life vs the Tree of Death and the Forbidden Fruit that Adam and Eve fortook, Christ is the New Adam…the new Man…and He received His Body and Blood from the Blessed Mother; Christ was already God.

So again, without Mary’s yes, we would not have the God Man. She is the link to our salvation and restoration. Her life for Christ and His Church and all mankind is an ongoing perpetual mission that she continues to serve from heaven. She is no quitter on our behalf.

It is when Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit with the ‘yes’ or Fiat of Mary…her yes allowed Christ to then have form as Man.

 

[KathleenGee]

I would add this…‘How Do I Know I Am Transformed?’

"Paul uses a wonderful and telling phrase: ‘I no longer live, but Christ lives in me’ (Galatians 2:20). It is a radically different sense of self that he is trying to describe. Until I have come to that realization myself, I have not been transformed spiritually speaking.

Contemplative prayer draws us to our True Self, who we are ‘hidden with Christ in God’ as Paul says in Colossians 3:3. This is the only self that actually exists. We came forth from God and our deepest DNA is divine. We are not human beings trying to become spiritual; we are already spiritual beings and the profound question is always, ‘What does it mean to be human?’. I believe that is why Jesus came as a human being, and consistently called himself the ‘Son of Man’ more than the ‘Son of God’. " R.Rohr, Daily Meditations.

‘What does it mean to be human’? We search that question as well when we see so many divisions and conflicts on earth. We ask ourselves who we are in the dark night.

But it is this question of what is human…that was used to make Christ man. And the human question was answered in Mary.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Don’t project sinful on something that was made pure.

Mary certainly was “made pure” but that is only because she became “full of grace” when she accepted Jesus sacrifice for her sins.

Rom.8
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The flesh that Jesus came in the likeness of was His mother’s flesh. Therefore His mother Mary was a sinner.