Mary - sinner - Romans 3?

[jlhargus]

The word scripture means written word. It’s were we get the word script which means writing and if you read the rest of Jn.5 you will see that Jesus is talking about what Moses WROTE about Him.
Jn.5
39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41I receive not honour from men.
42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

JL: It’s not scrpture that gives eternal life. Scripture is a witness for Christ, whom is and gives eternal life. The NLT is more clear, biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:37-40&version=NLT

So, in what other way do you think that we recieve the word of God?

JL: What does the written Word say? [2Thes2:14 Whereunto HE CALLED YOU BY OUR GOSPEL, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, BRETHREN STAND FAST, and HOLD THE TRADITIONS which ye have been TAUGHT, WHETHER BY whether by word, OR our epistle.]

Can you post a scripture saying all Tradition is now in the written Tradition of Scripture? If not then we can be sure the Word of God is both oral and written. Notice BOTH oral and scrptural Traditions are TAUGHT. The Teacher would be those whom Christ SENT to teach the WHOLE WORLD till the END, Mt28:16-20. The Church the pillar and ground of TRUTH, 1Tm3:15.

Jn 14: 26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

2TIM 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the THINGS that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

2 TIM 1:13 HOLD FAST THE** form of SOUND WORDS**, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was COMMITTED unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

 

[jlhargus]

The word scripture means written word. It’s were we get the word script which means writing and if you read the rest of Jn.5 you will see that Jesus is talking about what Moses WROTE about Him.
Jn.5
39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41I receive not honour from men.
42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

JL: It’s not scrpture that gives eternal life. Scripture is a witness for Christ, whom is and gives eternal life. The NLT is more clear, biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:37-40&version=NLT

So, in what other way do you think that we recieve the word of God?

JL: What does the written Word say? [2Thes2:14 Whereunto HE CALLED YOU BY OUR GOSPEL, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, BRETHREN STAND FAST, and HOLD THE TRADITIONS which ye have been TAUGHT, WHETHER BY whether by word, OR our epistle.]

Can you post a scripture saying all Tradition is now in the written Tradition of Scripture? If not then we can be sure the Word of God is both oral and written. Notice BOTH oral and scrptural Traditions are TAUGHT. The Teacher would be those whom Christ SENT to teach the WHOLE WORLD till the END, Mt28:16-20. The Church the pillar and ground of TRUTH, 1Tm3:15.

Jn 14: 26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

2TIM 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the THINGS that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

2 TIM 1:13 HOLD FAST THE** form of SOUND WORDS**, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was COMMITTED unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes,…the traditions we have been taught…

 

[Frankk]

And, of course, in the early years of the Church the only Scripture they had was the Old Testament. How on earth was the Gospel passed on when the New Testament never existed - in any form?

Orally and through Tradition, of course. Is this REALLY so hard to grasp? There can be absolutely no argument against it as there was no written NT text at the time.

 

[PRmerger]

And, of course, in the early years of the Church the only Scripture they had was the Old Testament. How on earth was the Gospel passed on when the New Testament never existed - in any form?

And this lasted for about 400 years. IOW: there was no Bible until the 5th century.

Think about it. 400 years. That’s like the time from the Pilgrims arriving in Plymouth Rock to present day. Imagine all that time without a US Constitution!

How could Christianity have survived for 400 years without a Bible?

Well, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit as He assisted the Church through proclaiming the Word of God via Sacred Tradition, that’s how!

 

[KathleenGee]

It is all about the Incarnation, not about the Word of God in book form to hold in your hand…

Written text draws on this image I have…the Tower of Babel…If you begin to translate in error, misread, misinterpret…The Bible is not going to rise up out of your hand and tell you. Words are always open to individual interpretation, common to that person’s experience in life. If you reject the Church as guide, you are also rejecting the work of your neighbor—to show you your blind spots.

Subsequently misreading Scripture can lead one turn inwards and subvert and warp…the Word of God being used to condemn, pass judgment, to be self-righteous.

The Bible is not going bring you to attention, start talking to you and show you the correct understanding.

The Bible as a book is not a person…God is the Author, the Holy Spirit moves and directs…but we can’t always depend on the Holy Spirit because of our own limited human psychology … or a misdirecting spirit that does not bear the fruit of Christ.

Most people in the world have been illiterate…the letters in the New Testament speak of times in the future when there will be a great going back and forth, many marrying, many taken to reading…

But in most times, the Word of God has been transmitted Orally.

Through human flesh…vigilant…charitable…directing you to the correct understanding of Sacred Scriptures that brings life to the world around you, in Christ begins to see everything as new, refreshed, and Christ at the heart of all your neighbors, penetrating the deepest recesses of your heart to show you an illumination…that touches on an area in need…where divine inspiration incarnates with you in the most particular way…and once assimilated…you are closer to God, more Christlike, and more in tune with the true intent of creation around you.

This is an example of Christ the Word Made Flesh.

And all this came about beginning with the sinless flesh of the Blessed Mother. No ordinary woman, a sinner, could bear fruit in her womb of Jesus Christ, the new beginning for mankind… As He was, so was she for us as companion, model, advocate. How much closer Mary brings us to Christ!

 

[joe370]

Richard Kastner, Jesus said that you shall know a tree by its fruit, and Jesus is the fruit of Mary’s womb. Couldn’t that mean that Mary, a mere creature, remained sinless since a bad tree cannot bear good fruit? Just a thought…

 

[E.E.N.S]

Richard Kastner, Jesus said that you shall know a tree by its fruit, and Jesus is the fruit of Mary’s womb. Couldn’t that mean that Mary, a mere creature, remained sinless since a bad tree cannot bear good fruit? Just a thought…

Personally, I wouldn’t use that argument, as then you would logically need to use the same argument for Mary’s parents, etc. I would rather use another venue, such as the Ark of the Covenant, the New Eve, kecharitomene, the argument from fittingness (as opposed to necessity), of the antiquity of the belief, or even any of the various other arguments out there.

 

[KathleenGee]

Are they even still here?..

 

[RevG]

It is all about the Incarnation, not about the Word of God in book form to hold in your hand…

Written text draws on this image I have…the Tower of Babel…If you begin to translate in error, misread, misinterpret…The Bible is not going to rise up out of your hand and tell you. Words are always open to individual interpretation, common to that person’s experience in life. If you reject the Church as guide, you are also rejecting the work of your neighbor—to show you your blind spots.

Subsequently misreading Scripture can lead one turn inwards and subvert and warp…the Word of God being used to condemn, pass judgment, to be self-righteous.

The Bible is not going bring you to attention, start talking to you and show you the correct understanding.

The Bible as a book is not a person…God is the Author, the Holy Spirit moves and directs…but we can’t always depend on the Holy Spirit because of our own limited human psychology … or a misdirecting spirit that does not bear the fruit of Christ.

Most people in the world have been illiterate…the letters in the New Testament speak of times in the future when there will be a great going back and forth, many marrying, many taken to reading…

But in most times, the Word of God has been transmitted Orally.

Through human flesh…vigilant…charitable…directing you to the correct understanding of Sacred Scriptures that brings life to the world around you, in Christ begins to see everything as new, refreshed, and Christ at the heart of all your neighbors, penetrating the deepest recesses of your heart to show you an illumination…that touches on an area in need…where divine inspiration incarnates with you in the most particular way…and once assimilated…you are closer to God, more Christlike, and more in tune with the true intent of creation around you.

This is an example of Christ the Word Made Flesh.

And all this came about beginning with the sinless flesh of the Blessed Mother. No ordinary woman, a sinner, could bear fruit in her womb of Jesus Christ, the new beginning for mankind… As He was, so was she for us as companion, model, advocate. How much closer Mary brings us to Christ!

I have made red two things you said here, and i must point out that what you have said is whats called heresy.
What you said is that there is no absolute truth, this is called relativism, everything is based on one’s life experiences, this is a post modern idea and negates the authority of Scripture.
Next you said we can not depend on the Holy Spirit…if you are depending on something other then the Spirit of God then it will be a hot eternity for you my friend.
Last thing, Scripture tells us to pray to God, to worship God to revere God, to exhalt God, to Love God…it never asserts theses things to Mary, only that she found grace in the sight of God and was allowed to birth the Savior.

 

[Good_Fella]

Personally, I wouldn’t use that argument, as then you would logically need to use the same argument for Mary’s parents, etc. I would rather use another venue, such as the Ark of the Covenant, the New Eve, kecharitomene, the argument from fittingness (as opposed to necessity), of the antiquity of the belief, or even any of the various other arguments out there.

True, Mary’s parents weren’t preserved free from the stain of original sin. Thus God intervened in her case and made her a worthy mother for our Lord. In his full humanity, Jesus did not inherit a sinful nature from his mother. Original sin is transmitted by both parents.

“As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.”
St. Proclus of Constantinople, Homily l (ante A.D. 446)

PAX
:heaven:

 

[joe370]

RevG;8531837]
What you said is that there is no absolute truth, this is called relativism…

So, doctrinally speaking, there are absolute truths and a way to discern those absolute truths? I agree, as does Kathleen.

Now, how can someone who believes that Mary was a sinner and someone who believes that Mary was not a sinner, both discover absolute truth regarding their difference of opinion?

 

[TeresaHicks]

Ya, I’m sorry I just don’t see what Jn.6 has to do with the sinlessness of Mary and I didn’t add anything to the scriptures Romans 3:8 says that Jesus came in the “likeness of sinful flesh” The flesh that He came in the likeness of was His mothers flesh, Therefore His mother was sinful. Simple deduction.

“Hail Mary, FULL of Grace.” Completely FULL. Therefore sinless. Mary was the first tabernacle. She held God in her womb. She could not be contaminated with sin. And though Christ had not suffered and died in atonement for our sins (yet), being outside of time and space, He could certainly gift his mother freedom from original sin.

 

[RevG]

“Hail Mary, FULL of Grace.” Completely FULL. Therefore sinless. Mary was the first tabernacle. She held God in her womb. She could not be contaminated with sin. And though Christ had not suffered and died in atonement for our sins (yet), being outside of time and space, He could certainly gift his mother freedom from original sin.

Full of grace does not interpret sinless, that is your hermeneutic. Mary was not the first tabernacle, the Tabernacle of God is seen as early as the Pentateuch. Your argument that Mary was born without sin has issues if as you say, sin is passed from both parents. The Bible states that Jesus was born of Mary and the Holy Spirit, He is the only person in the Bible to not have natural parents except Adam and Eve. Using your own argument Mary had to have original sin since she had two natural parents and Jesus did not since he did not have a natural father. Your outside of time and space argument is correct in that Jesus, God is outside of time and space, BUT, but He has revealed how He works within creation through the Bible, and nowhere does He grant anyone sinlessness. Jesus is sinless due to Him being able not to sin. please don’t come back with the righteousness of people argument, it is a feeble attempt to justify a flimsy argument. The Bible calls many people righteous, or explains them as obtaining righteousness, and never does it equate this with them having never sinned.

 

[RevG]

So, doctrinally speaking, there are absolute truths and a way to discern those absolute truths? I agree, as does Kathleen.

Now, how can someone who believes that Mary was a sinner and someone who believes that Mary was not a sinner, both discover absolute truth regarding their difference of opinion?

There is an absolute truth…the Bible. It is the absolute truth, without error, infallible, inerrant. How we can know the truth is by seeking what the Bible says about the topic since it is the final authority. The Bible never calls Mary sinless…never. the Bible says that Jesus was without sin. Regarding opinions, if anyone’s opinion goes contrary to the Bible then their opinion is wrong, whether that be me or that be you, the Bible is the final authority.

 

[mwok]

There is an absolute truth…the Bible. It is the absolute truth, without error, infallible, inerrant. How we can know the truth is by seeking what the Bible says about the topic since it is the final authority. The Bible never calls Mary sinless…never. the Bible says that Jesus was without sin. Regarding opinions, if anyone’s opinion goes contrary to the Bible then their opinion is wrong, whether that be me or that be you, the Bible is the final authority.

Actually, the Bible says “All have sinned”. Does ‘all’ include Jesus? Because that passage does not say ‘all have sinned, except for Jesus, of course’.

 

[Canto]

There is an absolute truth…the Bible. It is the absolute truth, without error, infallible, inerrant. How we can know the truth is by seeking what the Bible says about the topic since it is the final authority. The Bible never calls Mary sinless…never. the Bible says that Jesus was without sin. Regarding opinions, if anyone’s opinion goes contrary to the Bible then their opinion is wrong, whether that be me or that be you, the Bible is the final authority.

If the Bible is absolute truth, how can we be absolutely sure that all the right books are in there? It doesn’t tell us how many books. Catholics, Protestants, the Orthodox and Jews all have a different number of books.

The Bible doesn’t say it is the final authority. It does say the all inspired scripture is useful but not only scripture. And it doesn’t say what scripture is.

Who gets to decide whether one’s opinion goes against the Bible? For example I would argue your opinion goes against the Bible and you would argue mine (regarding Mary being sinless) does.

 

[joe370]

If the Bible is absolute truth, how can we be absolutely sure that all the right books are in there? It doesn’t tell us how many books. Catholics, Protestants, the Orthodox and Jews all have a different number of books.

The Bible doesn’t say it is the final authority. It does say the all inspired scripture is useful but not only scripture. And it doesn’t say what scripture is.

Who gets to decide whether one’s opinion goes against the Bible? For example I would argue your opinion goes against the Bible and you would argue mine (regarding Mary being sinless) does.

Exactly…

 

[joe370]

There is an absolute truth…the Bible. It is the absolute truth, without error, infallible, inerrant. How we can know the truth is by seeking what the Bible says about the topic since it is the final authority. The Bible never calls Mary sinless…never. the Bible says that Jesus was without sin. Regarding opinions, if anyone’s opinion goes contrary to the Bible then their opinion is wrong, whether that be me or that be you, the Bible is the final authority.

So your interpretation of scripture is right and my interpretation of scripture is wrong, regarding Mary??? Keep it simple friend…

 

[Frankk]

And, of course, we might ask RevG what there is in scripture which determines why he/she is a Baptist and not a Methodist, Pentecostalist, Quaker, Lutheran… I don’t think I need to go on with a very long list

Of course, these all claim the Bible is absolute truth and, yet, with this absolute truth at their disposal they ALL differ in matters of doctrine.

If I were to write this a part of a plot in a novel no publisher would touch it for being too far removed from any sense of reality whatsoever.